Another Maze 3 vs Maze 4 Review

Cathar · 07-03-2003, 09:24 PM

http://www.elite-tech.org/modules.ph...rder=0&thold=0

Look at the pictures closely.

Anyone else notice that the Maze 3 is hooked up to run the flow in the reverse direction to that which it is design to do?

Not to mention the other myriad of faults, being no temperature monitoring of any kind for the ambient, radiator intake, or water, and only doing two mounts, etc...

Then you look to the right and see that the average article rating is 4.47/5 stars, and that's after I gave it a 1.

It seems the big problem here is that the public does not even know a poor quality review when they see one, so it's no wonder that there's so much misinformation floating about the web when it comes to water-cooling.

jaydee · 07-03-2003, 09:57 PM

Cathar read here: http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=7137

Still 100% agree with you though. Also it does look like the Maze 3 is hooked up backwards unless the block is turned around 180 degrees? 6C better is BS. But whatever.....

Cathar · 07-03-2003, 10:48 PM

Man, what is it with all these people posting web reviews all over the place.

I starting to feel like the last person informed because these posts aren't where I would look to find them.

Oh well...

Chalk it up to another "Welcome to last week!" from Cathar.

jaydee · 07-03-2003, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cathar
Man, what is it with all these people posting web reviews all over the place.

I starting to feel like the last person informed because these posts aren't where I would look to find them.

Oh well...

Chalk it up to another "Welcome to last week!" from Cathar.

I hear ya. I only caught it because I noticed it on this sites front page with the "hot topic" script that shows the most recent posts of the forum. Otherwise I wouldn't have caught it either. Probably better off if I didn't.

Nuson · 07-24-2003, 03:57 AM

I don't even see any pictures of waterblocks in a running system there, Cathar. Where are you looking?

Alchemy · 07-24-2003, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cathar
Anyone else notice that the Maze 3 is hooked up to run the flow in the reverse direction to that which it is design to do?

Not necessarily. I mean, there's a decent chance this picture

http://www.elite-tech.org/reviews/maze3v4/P1010013.JPG

and this picture

http://www.elite-tech.org/reviews/maze3v4/P1010014.JPG

are not of the same thing. The block in the first picture could easily be the Maze4.

Alchemy

jaydee · 07-24-2003, 04:45 PM

Really doesn't matter. If the results where accurate in the review the Maze 4 would be out performing the Cascade! And look at the test system! Also 6C is a rather large gain over a block that is an average of 3C warmer then a White Water.

Quote:

MAZE3

Stabilization: average = 34C (high = 35C, low = 33C)

Burn: average = 36C (high 38C, low 35C)

MAZE4

Stabilization: average = 28C (high = 30C, low = 28C)

Burn: average = 30C (high = 31C, low = 29C)

Nuson · 07-25-2003, 03:33 PM

Well, if you have any data to back it up, I'd sure like to see it!

jaydee · 07-25-2003, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nuson
Well, if you have any data to back it up, I'd sure like to see it!

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=7276

Cathar used a Maze 3 while building the White Water and if memory serves it was about 3C warmer. And if the White Water is 2.5C behind the Cascade then that puts the Maze 4 as the best block on the planet.

Do you understand ANYTHING about testing? If so you will understand by reading that review and how it was tested that NOTHING could be taken remotely seriously by it.

Nuson · 07-25-2003, 05:08 PM

Woaw there jd! I'm just being a little skeptical like, just like you, so don't have a cow. And just for your information, I did not read it on your word that it was a bunch of crap...

That's fair evidence, but if cathar and vijal had different experience with the block, why should I believe cathar was right? I mean, you make it sound so obvious. I could easily use the exact oposite argument; that cathar doesn't know what he's doing and vijal proved it...

Now that I've read it, I'm a little more worried about why the cpu temps on the maze4 were much lower than ambient temps, than any possible assembly errors. I must agree with alch. Those pics don't tell us anything about how he put this thing together.

jaydee · 07-25-2003, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nuson
Woaw there jd! I'm just being a little skeptical like, just like you, so don't have a cow. And just for your information, I did not read it on your word that it was a bunch of crap...

That's fair evidence, but if cathar and vijal had different experience with the block, why should I believe cathar was right? I mean, you make it sound so obvious. I could easily use the exact oposite argument; that cathar doesn't know what he's doing and vijal proved it...

Now that I've read it, I'm a little more worried about why the cpu temps on the maze4 were much lower than ambient temps, than any possible assembly errors. I must agree with alch. Those pics don't tell us anything about how he put this thing together.

Sorry if I sounded like I was pissed off or trying to flame you as I am not.

Maybe you do not understand who Cathar is? He has designed the two best PC water blocks on the planet! Cathars White Water got tested by Bill Adams which is the most respected block tester around and his results backup Cathars results. Cathar used his own White Water to test against his Cascade which beats the White Water. And he used the Maze 3 as a comparison when building the White Water. Being the White Water and the Cascade are at the physical limits of perfection the Maze 4 would not only beat the Cascade but we would have to re-write the laws of physics in order to accept it!

Granted though it is not really to accurate to use Cathars results as a guide but there is just no way this review was even in the ballpark of reality!

Now here is another review that got the Maze 4 2.5C ahead of the Maze 3. Which is still contrary to what real users are getting but MUCH more realistic.
http://www.pureoc.com/DDMaze4_2.asp

I really wish I had a Maze 3 to compare against my Maze 4. I tested the Maze 4 and thought the results were not to bad but all I have is self made blocks to compare to.

Nuson · 07-26-2003, 12:59 AM

Cathar isn't the gold standard? Then why'd you spend that whole paragraph explaining why his designs are the greatest things since sliced bread?

I'M SO CONFUSED!...

I need to see these water blocks of his. Got some links for me?

bigben2k · 07-26-2003, 01:45 AM

What you want to do, is goto ocau.com :you'll be redirected to the Australian overclocker's website. Goto the Forums, and find the "extreme cooling" forum: Cathar's data is all there, he's even the moderator!

You'll need an ISP supplied e-mail address to register.

Cathar · 07-26-2003, 07:52 AM

Hmmm, so many interesting points to make.

1) I don't have an intensely reliable test-bed by any stretch of the imagination. I've developed a set of procedures that allows me to rely on it enough to give me an indication of when my block designs are performing better than another block design. That's about it. People always ask me "How many C better?". What do I tell them? It's what they want to know so I tell them what I see, but I always state that's only on my testbed at a certain speed/voltage/CPU type.

My test procedures usually involve generating fairly extreme heat loads. I tend to push the CPU's that I test with to the edge both in voltage and overclock, since this is the point that I design around. As such, some of the differences in temperature that I see may be a bit higher than the average user will see.

2) When I tested the White Water against the Maze 3, I took extra special care to lap the Maze 3 properly. This gained me about 2C in performance from the Maze 3 over when I first got it. On my test system at the time (Palomino AthlonXP @ 1900MHz/2.15v running BurnK7) the White Water was typically showing around 5C better than the (lapped) Maze 3. Most people's results backed this up, and I believe the reason why is because I lapped my Maze 3 and thus improved it's performance. Again, the differences that I see may be larger than the average user sees, but because the Maze 3 that I had was lapped and most user's Maze 3's were not lapped, these two effects more or less countered each other and what people saw correlated with what I saw.

3) With the Cascade, I've had about 5 user reports via email now of people saying around a 6-8C improvement over their old Maze 3's. On average, that's around a 2C improvement over the difference that people were seeing with the White Water vs the Maze 3. Not a scientific thing to bet the house on, but still it keeps in line with my claims of the Cascade being a better performing block than the White Water.

4) Reviewers are seeing the Maze 4 as being 2-3C better than the Maze 3. I saw a 2C improvement in the Maze 3 just by lapping it. Some of the user's I've seen reporting minimal Maze 3/4 differences would've been those who have lapped their Maze 3's too. Is this the reason for reader/reviewer discrepencies? I don't know for sure and I doubt anyone without a proper test-bed does either.

5) Nobody's lying. Everyone is just reporting what they see, and that's only as accurate as the test equipment used. What the reader needs to determine is who they think they can trust to have really tested the blocks properly, and that's the real issue at hand here.

What are the actual differences though? A 4C difference on one testbed may equate to a 2C difference on another system, a 1C difference on a system over there, and a 6C difference on a system somewhere else. It varies on the CPU used, the speed of the CPU, the motherboard, the heat load generation program used, the voltage/speed of the CPU, the air-flow in the case, the orientation of the thermistor, is the thermistor sealed/unsealed/on-die, etc. So many variables.

What's the real difference in temperature?

That's why we need accurate independent test-beds like BillA's sorely missed setup.

jaydee · 07-26-2003, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nuson
Cathar isn't the gold standard? Then why'd you spend that whole paragraph explaining why his designs are the greatest things since sliced bread?

I'M SO CONFUSED!...

I need to see these water blocks of his. Got some links for me?

Well Cathar said pretty well. I am not sure why you come into this forum and question the senior members and then ask us to prove it. We are the senior members, if you think we are full of it YOU PROVE IT.

Nuson · 07-26-2003, 09:49 PM

Now wait just a minute. All I'm saying is that, assuming no one is lying, it's hard to say whether one persons results are good or not and I think Cathar backs me up.

I for one, agree that that data doesn't make sense, but a 6 degree difference doesn't automaticly rule out validity or truthfulness. Didn't anyone else notice that the system temps were higher than core temps with the maze4? THAT should make you stop and wonder what's going on back there.

jaydee · 07-26-2003, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nuson

I for one, agree that that data doesn't make sense, but a 6 degree difference doesn't automaticly rule out validity or truthfulness.

Yes it does. Once you understand the laws of physics and basic water block design and proper basic testing then you will start to understand. There is no way the Maze 4 is 6C better than the Maze 3.

Nuson · 07-27-2003, 02:31 AM

SHIT! I lost my reply because my login time expired. That happens to me alot

... Here's my best recreation of what I wote:

I don't need to be insulted, and I don't need to brag about my physics knowledge to qualify what I say. Water block design is not exactly serious thermal engineering. The chaotic nature of the physical processes happening inside a water block practically rules out this type of indepth analysis completely. It's more a matter of trial and error and best guesses.

If I didn't take your word for it, jd, it should be of no suprise to you, since it is the whole nature of scientific investigation to not rely a small number of results. I would have more readily believed you if you had referred me to other reviews instead of simply yelling seniority. I never even disagreed with you that those results don't make sense. Why are you getting so excited about it?

jaydee · 07-27-2003, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nuson
SHIT! I lost my reply because my login time expired. That happens to me alot ... Here's my best recreation of what I wote:

I don't need to be insulted, and I don't need to brag about my physics knowledge to qualify what I say. Water block design is not exactly serious thermal engineering. The chaotic nature of the physical processes happening inside a water block practically rules out this type of indepth analysis completely. It's more a matter of trial and error and best guesses.

If I didn't take your word for it, jd, it should be of no suprise to you, since it is the whole nature of scientific investigation to not rely a small number of results. I would have more readily believed you if you had referred me to other reviews instead of simply yelling seniority. I never even disagreed with you that those results don't make sense. Why are you getting so excited about it?

As unregistered would say "Post less, read more". If you want to talk like a newb then go to a newb site like www.overclockers.com. They happily except ignorance and promote it. You will fit right in being you don't want to do any research yourself and are not interested in truth and raising the quality of information around here as the various few posts in this forum from you suggest.

If you don't want to be insulted then don't insult. Senior members here know what's going on around here and know who is who. Someone like you coming in here with no clue about water block design, general testing, or the history of this site and people on it and making the statements you have is not going to get you anywhere here. Replies like "Water block design is not exactly serious thermal engineering" is going to get your ass flamed around here. If you missed the title of this site it is "Pro"Cooling. Not "leet"NewbCooling. You do not belong on a site like this with the posts you have made so far. I suggest www.overclockers.com or www.amdmb.com. They love all, even newbs that don't care about water cooling improvement. You forget the majority of us here are water cooling designers. Saying "Water block design is not exactly serious thermal engineering" is a insult to us who put in years of effort in water block design and a direct slap in the face to anyone selling water blocks that work like Cathar.

Nuson · 07-28-2003, 01:03 AM

I lost my post again, but I don't think I timed out

Oh well...

For your information, jd, I did do my own research, but only after no one would help me out. In the past, I have had pretty bad experiences searching for water cooling info on the web, so it was pretty frustrating for me. My first reaction to this thread, therefore, was not to crawl the net searching for more info. I guess times have changed... (consider this: the last round up of water cooling products here was in jan 2002 so that sorta illustrates the still sparceness of reliable water cooling info on the web).

Simply designing and building water blocks does not constitute thermal engineering. Engineering is a design process which involves the ability to accurately predict how the design will work. I'm not saying that your experience has not helped you to design and build effective water blocks, but it's not an exact science as you've made it out to be.

jaydee · 07-28-2003, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nuson
I lost my post again, but I don't think I timed out Oh well...

For your information, jd, I did do my own research, but only after no one would help me out. In the past, I have had pretty bad experiences searching for water cooling info on the web, so it was pretty frustrating for me. My first reaction to this thread, therefore, was not to crawl the net searching for more info. I guess times have changed... (consider this: the last round up of water cooling products here was in jan 2002 so that sorta illustrates the still sparceness of reliable water cooling info on the web).

Simply designing and building water blocks does not constitute thermal engineering. Engineering is a design process which involves the ability to accurately predict how the design will work. I'm not saying that your experience has not helped you to design and build effective water blocks, but it's not an exact science as you've made it out to be.

Get off these forums and do everyone here a favor.

utabintarbo · 07-28-2003, 10:00 AM

Somebody needs a Midol!

jaydee · 07-28-2003, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by utabintarbo
Somebody needs a Midol!

I will refer you here aswell: http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/new...y&postid=82659

He is nothing more than a troll as is picks every issue that stirs things up around here. No one is this dumb by nature. I think.

Quote:

Must I suffer the eternal damnation of losing all my posts!? I need to learn to copy before hitting submit or preview... (my second tries never seem to be as good as the first )

I'm not AGAINST socket modding, but not everyone has the money to backup their board if something goes horribly wrong, and even if they do have the money, it's still a pretty big investment. I hope the "pro" denote that members are infalible or privileged, jd...

And it's not like socket mods are going to save us from bogus reports of cooler performance either, unless you can convince everyone that this is the only way to go which seems improbable since a good 40~ percent of those polled would not chop their socket...

My motherboard seems to report consistant temps and not even modded sockets can beat on die readings. Lots of smart hardware people, including hardocp.com and tomshardware.com, trust onboard reading devices; why shouldn't I?

utabintarbo · 07-28-2003, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaydee116
I will refer you here aswell: http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/new...y&postid=82659

He is nothing more than a troll as is picks every issue that stirs things up around here. No one is this dumb by nature. I think.

While I agree with you in general (esp. after looking at some of his other posts), I would think it preferable to carry on a discourse without resorting to ad hominem attacks, or calls to "just leave". If he is an ass, this will become apparent in due course, and he will be duly ignored.

My comment was directed at style, rather than content. I am sure nobody wishes to see this place become either an "Overclockers Forum", where only pablum can be aired, nor a [H], where dissent is met with either ridicule or summary dismissal.

"Can't we all just get along?" - Rodney King, 1991 :shrug:

Bob

jaydee · 07-28-2003, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by utabintarbo

"Can't we all just get along?" - Rodney King, 1991 :shrug:

Bob

No.

07-03-2003, 09:24 PM	#1
Cathar Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,538	Another Maze 3 vs Maze 4 Review http://www.elite-tech.org/modules.ph...rder=0&thold=0 Look at the pictures closely. Anyone else notice that the Maze 3 is hooked up to run the flow in the reverse direction to that which it is design to do? Not to mention the other myriad of faults, being no temperature monitoring of any kind for the ambient, radiator intake, or water, and only doing two mounts, etc... Then you look to the right and see that the average article rating is 4.47/5 stars, and that's after I gave it a 1. It seems the big problem here is that the public does not even know a poor quality review when they see one, so it's no wonder that there's so much misinformation floating about the web when it comes to water-cooling.

07-24-2003, 03:57 AM	#5
Nuson Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: USA Posts: 41	I don't even see any pictures of waterblocks in a running system there, Cathar. Where are you looking? __________________ Frag Out!

07-25-2003, 03:33 PM	#8
Nuson Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: USA Posts: 41	Well, if you have any data to back it up, I'd sure like to see it! __________________ Frag Out!

07-25-2003, 05:08 PM	#10
Nuson Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: USA Posts: 41	Woaw there jd! I'm just being a little skeptical like, just like you, so don't have a cow. And just for your information, I did not read it on your word that it was a bunch of crap... That's fair evidence, but if cathar and vijal had different experience with the block, why should I believe cathar was right? I mean, you make it sound so obvious. I could easily use the exact oposite argument; that cathar doesn't know what he's doing and vijal proved it... Now that I've read it, I'm a little more worried about why the cpu temps on the maze4 were much lower than ambient temps, than any possible assembly errors. I must agree with alch. Those pics don't tell us anything about how he put this thing together. __________________ Frag Out! Last edited by Nuson; 07-25-2003 at 05:36 PM.

07-26-2003, 12:59 AM	#12
Nuson Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: USA Posts: 41	Cathar isn't the gold standard? Then why'd you spend that whole paragraph explaining why his designs are the greatest things since sliced bread? I'M SO CONFUSED!... I need to see these water blocks of his. Got some links for me? __________________ Frag Out!

07-03-2003, 09:57 PM	#2
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	Cathar read here: http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=7137 Still 100% agree with you though. Also it does look like the Maze 3 is hooked up backwards unless the block is turned around 180 degrees? 6C better is BS. But whatever.....

07-03-2003, 10:48 PM	#3
Cathar Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,538	Man, what is it with all these people posting web reviews all over the place. I starting to feel like the last person informed because these posts aren't where I would look to find them. Oh well... Chalk it up to another "Welcome to last week!" from Cathar.

07-26-2003, 01:45 AM	#13
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	What you want to do, is goto ocau.com :you'll be redirected to the Australian overclocker's website. Goto the Forums, and find the "extreme cooling" forum: Cathar's data is all there, he's even the moderator! You'll need an ISP supplied e-mail address to register. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

07-26-2003, 07:52 AM	#14
Cathar Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,538	Hmmm, so many interesting points to make. 1) I don't have an intensely reliable test-bed by any stretch of the imagination. I've developed a set of procedures that allows me to rely on it enough to give me an indication of when my block designs are performing better than another block design. That's about it. People always ask me "How many C better?". What do I tell them? It's what they want to know so I tell them what I see, but I always state that's only on my testbed at a certain speed/voltage/CPU type. My test procedures usually involve generating fairly extreme heat loads. I tend to push the CPU's that I test with to the edge both in voltage and overclock, since this is the point that I design around. As such, some of the differences in temperature that I see may be a bit higher than the average user will see. 2) When I tested the White Water against the Maze 3, I took extra special care to lap the Maze 3 properly. This gained me about 2C in performance from the Maze 3 over when I first got it. On my test system at the time (Palomino AthlonXP @ 1900MHz/2.15v running BurnK7) the White Water was typically showing around 5C better than the (lapped) Maze 3. Most people's results backed this up, and I believe the reason why is because I lapped my Maze 3 and thus improved it's performance. Again, the differences that I see may be larger than the average user sees, but because the Maze 3 that I had was lapped and most user's Maze 3's were not lapped, these two effects more or less countered each other and what people saw correlated with what I saw. 3) With the Cascade, I've had about 5 user reports via email now of people saying around a 6-8C improvement over their old Maze 3's. On average, that's around a 2C improvement over the difference that people were seeing with the White Water vs the Maze 3. Not a scientific thing to bet the house on, but still it keeps in line with my claims of the Cascade being a better performing block than the White Water. 4) Reviewers are seeing the Maze 4 as being 2-3C better than the Maze 3. I saw a 2C improvement in the Maze 3 just by lapping it. Some of the user's I've seen reporting minimal Maze 3/4 differences would've been those who have lapped their Maze 3's too. Is this the reason for reader/reviewer discrepencies? I don't know for sure and I doubt anyone without a proper test-bed does either. 5) Nobody's lying. Everyone is just reporting what they see, and that's only as accurate as the test equipment used. What the reader needs to determine is who they think they can trust to have really tested the blocks properly, and that's the real issue at hand here. What are the actual differences though? A 4C difference on one testbed may equate to a 2C difference on another system, a 1C difference on a system over there, and a 6C difference on a system somewhere else. It varies on the CPU used, the speed of the CPU, the motherboard, the heat load generation program used, the voltage/speed of the CPU, the air-flow in the case, the orientation of the thermistor, is the thermistor sealed/unsealed/on-die, etc. So many variables. What's the real difference in temperature? That's why we need accurate independent test-beds like BillA's sorely missed setup.

07-26-2003, 09:49 PM	#16
Nuson Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: USA Posts: 41	Now wait just a minute. All I'm saying is that, assuming no one is lying, it's hard to say whether one persons results are good or not and I think Cathar backs me up. I for one, agree that that data doesn't make sense, but a 6 degree difference doesn't automaticly rule out validity or truthfulness. Didn't anyone else notice that the system temps were higher than core temps with the maze4? THAT should make you stop and wonder what's going on back there. __________________ Frag Out!

07-27-2003, 02:31 AM	#18
Nuson Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: USA Posts: 41	SHIT! I lost my reply because my login time expired. That happens to me alot ... Here's my best recreation of what I wote: I don't need to be insulted, and I don't need to brag about my physics knowledge to qualify what I say. Water block design is not exactly serious thermal engineering. The chaotic nature of the physical processes happening inside a water block practically rules out this type of indepth analysis completely. It's more a matter of trial and error and best guesses. If I didn't take your word for it, jd, it should be of no suprise to you, since it is the whole nature of scientific investigation to not rely a small number of results. I would have more readily believed you if you had referred me to other reviews instead of simply yelling seniority. I never even disagreed with you that those results don't make sense. Why are you getting so excited about it? __________________ Frag Out!

07-28-2003, 01:03 AM	#20
Nuson Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: USA Posts: 41	I lost my post again, but I don't think I timed out Oh well... For your information, jd, I did do my own research, but only after no one would help me out. In the past, I have had pretty bad experiences searching for water cooling info on the web, so it was pretty frustrating for me. My first reaction to this thread, therefore, was not to crawl the net searching for more info. I guess times have changed... (consider this: the last round up of water cooling products here was in jan 2002 so that sorta illustrates the still sparceness of reliable water cooling info on the web). Simply designing and building water blocks does not constitute thermal engineering. Engineering is a design process which involves the ability to accurately predict how the design will work. I'm not saying that your experience has not helped you to design and build effective water blocks, but it's not an exact science as you've made it out to be. __________________ Frag Out!

07-28-2003, 10:00 AM	#22
utabintarbo Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sterling Hts., MI Posts: 496	Somebody needs a Midol! __________________ Sarcasm is yet another of the free services we offer!

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