Shooting myself in the foot with 3/8" tubing?

[einsig]

I will be using the following parts in my A64, K8N Neo Plat, 6800GT system.

DD D4 pump
TDX CPU block
Maze 4 chipset block
upcoming DD 6800 block
D-Tek 120 heater core
AquaComputer AquaTube res

Am I shooting myself in the foot by using 3/8" ID with this setup? 1/2" tubing is just cuts away some of the aesthetics for me and also the AquaTube res comes with 3/8" barbs only.

I have a few options here:

1. Run all 3/8", but at what performance cost?
2. Run all 1/2" except to and from the res, but with added turbulence and a bottleneck.
3. have the AquaTube drilled and re-tapped to accept 1/2" barbs.

I'd like to stick with 3/8ths all around. Do you think there will be a huge difference with those components and either 1/2 or 3/8th ID tubing?

[pHaestus]

I wouldn't in general be concerned too much, but the D4 pump may not be too happy with a 3/8" barb (~1/4" ID?) at it's inlet. I'd also go with the plug n cool connectors if I were using 3/8" rather than brass or plastic hose barbs for sure.

[einsig]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

I wouldn't in general be concerned too much, but the D4 pump may not be too happy with a 3/8" barb (~1/4" ID?) at it's inlet. I'd also go with the plug n cool connectors if I were using 3/8" rather than brass or plastic hose barbs for sure.

I was planning on getting 1/2" barbs and just streeeaching the 3/8" hose over...just in case the smaller ID doesn't work out.

Why would the D4 balk at the smaller ID? Just curious.

[einsig]

Anyone else? I'd really like some input. Thanks.

[redleader]

I think you'll be fine. If you're really concerned, you could always get a drill and bore your 3/8 inch barbs so they're wider inside. Takes about 4 minutes with a power drill.

[Senater_Cache]

I would stick with 1/2 for the sake of your pump (like pH said).
DO NOT run all 1/2 ID except around your res !!
Also do not overlook the option of using a T-line. (you didnt list it)
You will find many members here to be very supportive of a T-line actually.
Considering all your components except your res are equipped, or are available with 1/2 OD barbs, just stick to 1/2 ID tubing.
hopes this helps you choose....
SenC.

[Ozymand]

Originally Posted by einsig

Why would the D4 balk at the smaller ID? Just curious.

Most pumps dislike having a restriction at the inlet, and pH was just pointing out that having such a small inlet to the pump would more than likely hinder the ability of the pump to work to it's fullest potential (how much of a restriction I am unsure of).

By the looks of it, the AquaTube has replaceable barbs and you could swap in a 1/2" barb to go from the res to the pump, and leave everthing else at 3/8" tubing leaving the pump, through the rest of the system, then back into the res.

Good luck with your system.. be sure to post pics of it once you get it all together.

[nexxo]

Thing is, even if you fit 1/2" barbs on an Aquatube, you're dealing with a restriction at the threaded end as it is a 1/4" thread. Instead, I just drilled out my Aqua-Tube thus:



to accomodate it for 3/8" ID tubing --that's a 3/8" BSP thread barb in the side. This tubing will fit over 1/2" barbs, by the way, if you warm it up first (just dunk it in some hot water for a few minutes, else use a hair dryer), and make a nice, tight fit.

Many 1/2" barbs, when you measure them, turn out to be only about 10mm (3/8") to 11mm ID, so in terms of restriction, using 3/8" ID tubing instead of 1/2" is not, I imagine, a biggie.

The barb in the bottom is a 3/4" ID barb (this is an Aquatube v1.0 which did not yet have three 1/4" bottom barb holes). This runs straight to the pump inlet. I deliberately chose a bigger diameter tubing for the res --> pump inlet connection to prevent restriction and cavitation. As such the setup looks like this:







I have made a modification since; different pump (and hence a different bracket):



And various other things besides. The whole thing, by the way, is a Dual Athlon MP 2800 in a Lian-Li PC-12.

[quicksilverXP]

Wow.... your rig is sweet! Care to enlighten us what parts you have as well as the modifications you did? I've seen those hose clamps somewhere but I forgot from where.

Also, aren't you worried about corrosion now that you've drilled the aluminum away and exposed itself from the anodization?

[nexxo]

Phew... The whole project log can be found on the Bit-Tech Forums and on the Wizard Designs Forums.

The blocks are Phase II blacks made by Paul Vodrazka (discontinued). The clamps are by Phi-Ton. The pump is a Davies-Craig EBP. The rest... you'll have to read the log. There is a lot of stuff in there. Bespoke circuit, 5" colour LCD...

I intend to use PF5080 Fluorinert, so no, corrosion doesn't worry me.

[Ozymand]

Fluorinert? Curious how it'll work. I use the stuff on a daily basis for work (HFE7100) and the things that I've noticed with that fluid is that: a) if there's the smallest leak, even a pinhole, it'll find it (and the smaller it is, the harder it will be to find the leak since it is odorless and evaporates rapidly), and b) depending on the material, it will react to your tubing/o-rings/etc and will become statically charged due to it leeching material.

When we had originally switched from FC-77 to HFE-7100, we found that condition out when various individuals were getting shocked by handling instruments in the machines. Lo and behold, the fluid in the system was generating a charge differential of excess of 2kV. So for now, we're using a special additive to the fluid to reduce the charge build-up in addition to material changes in the coolant loop to minimize that build-up.

If you read through the MSDS and documentation for Fluorinert in regards to implimenting the system it'll note that and what precautions and regular maintenace will need to be performed on a system. If you haven't, I'd recommend that you do before you get a rather rude surprise.

[nexxo]

Interesting, that. It is heavier than water, so I imagine it will leak faster... As for it reacting to seals etc., isn't it supposed to be totally inert?

Anyway, we have been discussing this issue a bit on Wizdforums.co.uk, and one poster could share his home PC experience on Fluorinert:

perflurocarbon liquid cooling works well !

I just came across this thread, with read with interest some of the comments regarding perflurocarbon based liquid cooling. As I've been using this stuff for almost four years, I thought I could add some useful informed comments.

Just to give you an idea of cooling performance...
I'm writing this post on a liquid cooled PC-DL with dual overclocked 1MB cache Xeons (@3.6GHz), a 9800XT and northbridge all running with liquid blocks. The system is cooled by a Koolance EXOS and it's using InertX PF5080 perflurocarbon coolant.(www.InertX.com)
The machine currently holds the no.2 fastest PCMark2004 score on the futuremark orb site.

The Koolance EXOS never needs to be out of mode 1 (low noise mode) and the temp. now (i.e. under light load), is reading 35 deg.C. The point is perflurocarbon coolant works very well in place of water, even on a consummer friendly small bore pipe (6mm) liquid cooled system. If I fire up Seti@home on one cpu and run FarCry at the same time on the other, the Koolance will hit 42 deg.C tops. MBM is registering the CPU's temperature from the mobo about 4-6 degrees hotter than the EXOS disply. The EXOS temp probe is stuck to one edge of the underside of CPU 0's liquid block, and is designed to give you an idea of the coolant temperature. Using a Calex digital temperature prope to measure the real coolant temp. in the EXOS reservior, and hey presto it also reads 35 deg.C.
(MBM currently shows CPU0 @ 41deg.C & CPU1 @ 39deg.C)

Not bad when you consider the thermal load.!

There seems to be a lot incorrect information flying around on the web regarding the cooling performance of perflurocarbon coolants. Of course it's mainly by spread by people who have never actually used the stuff. I'm only trying to set the record straight here, as the advantages of using this coolant are numerious.

Re: it's use in Cray supercomputers.
Most Cray supercomputers actually use conduction-to-convection cooling.
A large aluminium coldplate in is direct contact with heat producing semiconductors (just like a PC water block) with Fluorinert FC-74 flowing through it. In recent times only the T90 series from around the mid to late 1990's used direct immersion cooling with FC-77 coolant, and Cray only built a handfull of those. Today there are very few T90's still in service, and the remaining T3E's and I believe the new X1 all use coldplate/Fluorinert cooling.

I'f anyone is interested in using this stuff for PC liquid cooling, I'll be happy to share what i know.

and for the Myth spreaders out there...
It's not toxic, unless you burn it. (usually above 200 deg.C)
and it doesn't destroy the ozone layer.

iXXeon

I also know that on some Crays the PCBs are actually submerged in circulating Fluorinert, and those carzy monkeys at OCTools.com have submerged entire mobos in chilled fluorinert baths. So I must admit I'm a bit confused about this whole static electricity thing, especially as Fluorinert doesn't conduct. In any case Amari inc. seems to be happy enough to use it in PC systems that they sell. But if you can give me a link to said documentation, I would be grateful and will read it immediately.

[Ozymand]

HFE is actually the replacement for traditional applications of Fluorinert (FC-series fluids). I'm actually rather surprised that it's being sold commerically in small batches just because the price of the stuff went astronomical (we were paying roughly $1k/container for a while).

My bad then, I had guessed due to the rather limited availability of commerical-grade FC-series fluid that it was more of an HFE-series variant.

In that case, if it's a true Fluorinert you won't have an issue because HFE is a selective solvent (it will leech similar materials out). Checking out the 3M homepage, and gussing from what limited information is on the InertX website, it may indeed be small batches of FC-77, which won't pose the same issue. Here's the information on HFE-7100 (the stuff I use at work, designed for use in ATE equipment), look under sections 4e and 4f which detail what happens when the fluid is used with a system that has incompatible material in it.

[asteroth]

or, you get source an Innovatek Fass-O-Matic which is nearly identical the the aquatube except it has 6 holes for barbs and most importantly has 1/4 thread to accomodate 1/2 barbs. i have one in my setup, works fine all 1/2. no worries

[nexxo]

Originally Posted by Ozymand

HFE is actually the replacement for traditional applications of Fluorinert (FC-series fluids). I'm actually rather surprised that it's being sold commerically in small batches just because the price of the stuff went astronomical (we were paying roughly $1k/container for a while).

My bad then, I had guessed due to the rather limited availability of commerical-grade FC-series fluid that it was more of an HFE-series variant.

In that case, if it's a true Fluorinert you won't have an issue because HFE is a selective solvent (it will leech similar materials out). Checking out the 3M homepage, and gussing from what limited information is on the InertX website, it may indeed be small batches of FC-77, which won't pose the same issue. Here's the information on HFE-7100 (the stuff I use at work, designed for use in ATE equipment), look under sections 4e and 4f which detail what happens when the fluid is used with a system that has incompatible material in it.

Phew! You had me worried there for a moment... Still, I appreciate the heads-up and will read the link you provided. Fluorinert is indeed spectacularly expensive. All I can think is that Inertx.com is selling reclaimed/recycled stuff (TCM Industries does, and their reclaimed product is claimed to be comparable in, if not exceeding, purity of the new stuff) which comes at a considerable discount.

My reasoning is however, that (provided the circuit is leak-proof) I can just pour the stuff in and stop worrying about corrosion, algae and the like. Even if it springs a leak, the loss of £70,-- worth of coolant is more survivable than the loss of £1000,-- + of shorted out equipement...

When I have the thing up and running, I'll come back and report my experiences.

[einsig]

Originally Posted by nexxo

Thing is, even if you fit 1/2" barbs on an Aquatube, you're dealing with a restriction at the threaded end as it is a 1/4" thread. Instead, I just drilled out my Aqua-Tube thus:


to accomodate it for 3/8" ID tubing --that's a 3/8" BSP thread barb in the side. This tubing will fit over 1/2" barbs, by the way, if you warm it up first (just dunk it in some hot water for a few minutes, else use a hair dryer), and make a nice, tight fit.

Many 1/2" barbs, when you measure them, turn out to be only about 10mm (3/8") to 11mm ID, so in terms of restriction, using 3/8" ID tubing instead of 1/2" is not, I imagine, a biggie.

The barb in the bottom is a 3/4" ID barb (this is an Aquatube v1.0 which did not yet have three 1/4" bottom barb holes). This runs straight to the pump inlet. I deliberately chose a bigger diameter tubing for the res --> pump inlet connection to prevent restriction and cavitation. As such the setup looks like this:

Thanks for the info Nexxo! This is just what I was looking for. When I said I'd fit 1/2" barbs on the AquaTube, I ws planning on boring out the hole and re-tapping it to accomodate a larger ID and thread, so 1/4" on the thread size would not be used. I assume this is exactly what you did as well, except even larger on the outlet. I wonder if I can drill a hole that large on the 1.1 version?

[einsig]

Originally Posted by asteroth

or, you get source an Innovatek Fass-O-Matic which is nearly identical the the aquatube except it has 6 holes for barbs and most importantly has 1/4 thread to accomodate 1/2 barbs. i have one in my setup, works fine all 1/2. no worries

The Fass also looks nice, but it too has the small thread and it looks like it would have less room to bore out and retap. Its the same prie as an Aqua for me.

[pauldenton]

http://www.coolercases.co.uk/ did get a whole batch of aquatubes bored out ....

[einsig]

Originally Posted by pauldenton

http://www.coolercases.co.uk/ did get a whole batch of aquatubes bored out ....

Thanks. I emailed them. I wonder if the ID for the entire port is 1/2"?

[dacooltech]

Originally Posted by einsig

I was planning on getting 1/2" barbs and just rstreeeaching the 3/8" hose over...just in case the smaller ID doesn't work out.

Why would the D4 balk at the smaller ID? Just curious.

streeeaching 3/8"ID tube over 1/2 barbs would work just fine... insert the ends of tubing in to boiling hot water, or use yo mama's hair dryer and the rest is eaazyy ... a'ight? :P

or yeah just like pH suggested you can use1/2"OD Plug'N Cool quick-connects for 3/8"ID 1/2"OD tube... my favorite...

[dacooltech]

"nexxo: Thing is, even if you fit 1/2" barbs on an Aquatube, you're dealing with a restriction at the threaded end as it is a 1/4" thread. Instead, I just drilled out my Aqua-Tube thus:" ...

Nexxo, FYI pipe size is the accepted industry designation, not the actual measured size. The inside diameter of 1/4"NPT thread is 3/8...

[einsig]

Thanks Dacooltech. I know this is so noob, but what is NPT? The 1/4" just mean how long the threaded length is, correct?

[pHaestus]

NPT= Nuclear Non-Profileration Treaty

Or National Pipe Thread I guess
NPT - National Pipe Thread
NPT fittings are tapered, and the fraction refers to the inside diameter of the corresponding pipe.

[Groth]

National Pipe Thread, a very old standard created in the day of cast iron pipe. 1/4" NPT threads would be found on the outside of a thick walled pipe that had a one quarter inch inside diameter.

With better metalurgy/maunfacturing these days, we can make pipes with thinner walls. Thus a larger inside diameter with the same traditional 1/4" NPT threads.

Doh! beat me to it. Nasty pH Types!

[einsig]

Ok so how do I know if a modern 1/4" NPT actually has a larger ID?