Water, water everywhere....

[BGP Spook]

First post on these procooling forums. I have for the last few months admired the professionalism displayed at this site. Since I found the procooling site it has joined my short list of hardware sites that I trust and furthermore it has topped that list.


Now, with that out of the way....

I am about to start water cooling. I have been very sucessful in attaining parts that I believe will meet my needs for very little money. I am within site of sub $100 water cooling.

In a non mixed metal system, with copper being the only metal.

[question 1]Would a ~%10 glycerol antifreez ~%90 destilled water system, with less then half a drop of Dawn dish soap be an acceptable long term (6-12 months between flush and refills, repeatable for 3-5 years) solution to be running?

[question 2]If so, how much cooling loss would I see compared to straight distilled water?


System Components:

Via Aqua 1300 (A cheap pump, ~2m max head, ~24 lpm max flow, good for my first foray into WCing. I am guessing it will actually perform at a little less than 3-4 lpm realistically.)

a "custome" reservoir (A plastic coffee can, with holes drilled in the top.)

2-302 (A heatercore, I will mod fittings when I get the time.)

cardboard, plastic bags, and duct tape (For making a shroud, I am very cheap incase you hadn't figured out already.)

a squirrel cage fan (I think it has good cf/m and pressure. Works on the same principle as an impeller pump, but it looks like one of those wheels on which rats and mice run.)

MCW6002-A (I hear it has a good Delta T at low flow, and is a relatively low resistance block.)

Zip ties (Cheap! I have lots of them...they come in neon colors? )

Vinyl 1/2 in ID tubing (Everyone says "use Clearflex 60!" but can you beat 12 cents a foot?)

Glycerol Anti-freeze (Details described above.)

Distilled water ($1-$2 at Food Lion)


This will only be cooling my CPU. (Athlon XP 2600+, Barton, model 10, with modest hopes of overclocking.)

[scorp]

I'm only going to answet to question 2 :

Antifreeze does not improve the properties of water. It actually makes them worse.

Read greenman100's post at http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=10301.

[BGP Spook]

Thank you, scorp, but I already knew that antifreeze would worsen the cooling properties of water. I guess I didn't clarify my question.

Thanks for the link though, I get a kick out of this sort of thing.

[Mathelo]

Originally Posted by scorp

I'm only going to answet to question 2 :

Antifreeze does not improve the properties of water. It actually makes them worse.

Read greenman100's post at http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=10301.

So if your loop only has copper, brass, and pump is in a Laing D5, is there any reason to use antifreeze?

Louis

[Etacovda]

The via aqua has a poor service record - so be sure to mount it somewhere that it wont do damage in case of failure.

Use hose clamps, its a small outlay compared to frying your system. Theres no way id trust zip ties on an mcw600x block - but they come with clamps anyway.

Use a T-line if you're lazy, less chance of failure than a res.

vinyl tubing is a PITA, you'll love clearflex/tygon - its worth the outlay.

Not a huge difference in performance with 10% antifreeze. pH's waterblock testing is done with 25%, iirc. Im sure someone will correct me on that. Theres no real data on radiator/pump performance with and without antifreeze that i know of.

"So if your loop only has copper, brass, and pump is in a Laing D5, is there any reason to use antifreeze?"

Not really. People claim that it has anti-bacterial/anti-fungal properties, but personally ive found that if it does, its weak. Ive gotten algae growth on two occasions using gycol based anti-freeze at 10/15%. Personally i use distilled water and a small amount of anti-algae solution from an NZ fish products distributor.

[brucoman]

I have also gotten algae with 10% glycol mixes
Now using 5% methanol for last 18 months with no growth (water maintained at 64 F helps too)

[BGP Spook]

Thank you for you responce Etacovda.

Originally Posted by Etacovda

The via aqua has a poor service record - so be sure to mount it somewhere that it wont do damage in case of failure.

Which was the purpose of the reservoir. I have heard of this pump being leaky before. I thought that since the Via Aqua was a little noisy, I would be able to hear if it quit working suddenly.

Originally Posted by Etacovda

Use hose clamps, its a small outlay compared to frying your system. Theres no way id trust zip ties on an mcw600x block - but they come with clamps anyway.

The only connections that will be inside of the case will be the block. Which as you pointed out has its own metal hose clamps. The pump will be in the reservoir so not much need to worry about those leaking. Which leaves the heatercore. I believe careful use and application of the zip ties will seal the hoses quite well.

Am I mistaken in this assumption? As I stated in my first post a major factor in evey purchase decision has been cost. Should I abandon the notion of using zip ties all together or is it workable?

Originally Posted by Etacovda

Use a T-line if you're lazy, less chance of failure than a res.

See first response.

Originally Posted by Etacovda

vinyl tubing is a PITA, you'll love clearflex/tygon - its worth the outlay.

(What is PITA? I have seen it being thown around but I am unfamiliar with it.)

I have thought about it alot. Believe me I would like to use clearflex or tygon but the cheapest I could find clearflex was 60 cents a linear foot plus shipping. If I bought 6 feet of hose and cheap shipping I would shell out upwards of $9. If you could tell me of a place which would put it in my hands for $4-$5 then I might reconsider.

Compare $9 to the cost of me driving down to Lowes and paying 12 cents a foot pluse tax.

Given my goal of a sub $100 system it just doesn't add up.

Originally Posted by Etacovda

Not a huge difference in performance with 10% antifreeze. pH's waterblock testing is done with 25%, iirc. Im sure someone will correct me on that. Theres no real data on radiator/pump performance with and without antifreeze that i know of.

"So if your loop only has copper, brass, and pump is in a Laing D5, is there any reason to use antifreeze?"

Not really. People claim that it has anti-bacterial/anti-fungal properties, but personally ive found that if it does, its weak. Ive gotten algae growth on two occasions using gycol based anti-freeze at 10/15%. Personally i use distilled water and a small amount of anti-algae solution from an NZ fish products distributor.

Thank you especially for this last part.

Since I am now near the assembly stage (I am waiting for the pump to get to me) I have been thinking about what additive to use.
I am a little hesitant to not use any anti-corrosive, even though I only have copper in the loop. (I think it is just paranoia on my part, though.)
However, where I live algae/fungus/bacteria (general growth in water) are a major concern.

I will have to price anti-growth additives and do a new cost analysis, since I was hoping the anti-freeze could "kill two birds with one stone" as it were.


Thank you again

BGP Spook

[jaydee]

PITA = "Pain In the Ass"

[Etacovda]

"However, where I live algae/fungus/bacteria (general growth in water) are a major concern."

buy some distilled water, it cheap.

[Brians256]

Soap is just going to make bubbles. I recommend against it. Temps really aren't going to change much by using a surfactant. I just don't like foam in my reservoir. Hard to get the bubbles out.

I use a combination of distilled water, and antifreeze. Then, I change the water every 6-12 months and flush the system. That prevents corrosion and bio buildup. So far...

[BGP Spook]

Originally Posted by Etacovda

"However, where I live algae/fungus/bacteria (general growth in water) are a major concern."

buy some distilled water, it cheap.

I had planed on using distiled water, but it may still be an issue because of the air quality/average temperature around my local.

Originally Posted by Brians256

Soap is just going to make bubbles. I recommend against it. Temps really aren't going to change much by using a surfactant. I just don't like foam in my reservoir. Hard to get the bubbles out.

Noted, though, I don't believe I would be using enough to cause it to foam up.

Originally Posted by Brians256

I use a combination of distilled water, and antifreeze. Then, I change the water every 6-12 months and flush the system. That prevents corrosion and bio buildup. So far...

Something I just remembered.....my city sucks.

In the city I live in it is unlawful to dispose of or accept used anti-freeze except at city authorised locals.

There is only one city authorised local. The recycleing center, but they only accpet anti-freeze on the first and third Tuesdays of odd numbered months.
Which is a PITA and ridiculous for a city of 150k people, it makes me so .

So whatever I get needs to be something anti-corrosive, something anti-growth, and something I can pour down the drain or easily dispose.

[bigben2k]

That rules out the regular anti-freeze.

You might look into "green" versions of anti-freeze, and see if your city has any objections to it.

Otherwise, you might consider windshield wiper fluid, but please first check out the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for methanol (aka methyl alcohol). Windshield Wiper fluid is a mix of methanol and distilled water, so the MSDS for methanol alone may not apply.

On the plus side, windshield wiper fluid takes care of the growth issue, but leaves you without an anti-corrosion agent. You can add an additive of your choice, but stay away from additives with silicates (i.e. Redline's Water Wetter), as they'll gum up the inside of the loop. Zerex seems to be a good choice, but I don't know much about it. Swiftech makes a good additive ([edit] but not for an alcohol mix). For a surfactant (completely optional), you want something that's not going to foam up, like the ole' Jet-Dry.

I like your component selection, except for the pump. Did you plan on running it submerged in the res?

[BGP Spook]

Originally Posted by bigben2k

I like your component selection, except for the pump. Did you plan on running it submerged in the res?

Yes, mostly submerged, since it has a reputation for leaking and the occasional SDS. (I believe I said about as much in earlier posts.)

[BGP Spook]

I have been doing some research when I ran across Sodium Bicarbonate (Baking Soda) which raises the pH of water and may be what I am looking for. (Experiment time!)

A pH of about 8.3 might be enough to discourage growth in the water (growth doesn't like alkaline solutions much) and make conditions less than ideal for corrosion. A pH of 8.3 combined with coppers comparatively slow natural corrosion rate in water might provide sufficient corrosion protection.

[bigben2k]

...but might grind up your pump, if it's not fully dissolved; bad idea.

You wouldn't get all of the bacteria anyways, and there are other agents that are more effective.

[BillA]

never seen so many crap ideas in a single thread
save up 'till you can afford to do it better than you are describing

N.B. alcohol in any mixture is not a Swiftech recommended coolant
(not that any Swiftech products were cheap enough to make the cut)

[stev]

Methanol is not all that friendly to you or the enviroment, however, 200% Proof Vodka is. Don't drink it, use 5% and 95% distilled water as a mix, rather than the glycol, if all your metals are copper. This level of Vodka is ethanol. Yep, the stuff that is found in gasohol. This will keep out the little green funny things in the water and you may never need to flush the WC'ing setup again.


Ethanoic acid is basically acetic acid. The same stuff people use to flush and clean their WC'ing setup; Distilled White Vinegar. Both Vodka and Distilled White Vinegar are obtained by fractional distillation.
http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/AC/acetic_acid.html

[BGP Spook]

Originally Posted by bigben2k

...but might grind up your pump, if it's not fully dissolved; bad idea.

You are right. Sodium bicarbonate is very slightly abrasive.

I honestly did not think of this one. Odd since I can usualy see the fault in something before I can see an application for it.

However, its abrassivness is slight. Enough so that it is recommended for cleaning glass and other scratch sensitive surfaces in a 50%-50% solution with water. (One random "useful" use for baking soda. Amazing what you can find by scrolling though 30 odd pages of google results.)

About 8g of sodium bicarbonate will dissolve per 100g water at about 20C.
In a two liter system (2L = 2,000g) about 160 grams (5oz - 6oz) would dissolve in water at about 20C. I think that as long as I stay on the conservative side of things there should be no trouble.

Originally Posted by bigben2k

You wouldn't get all of the bacteria anyways, and there are other agents that are more effective.

It is very hard to get rid of all the bacteria. But you are right there are much more effective solutions.

But shouldn't it be better than straight distilled water? Or would it not make enough of a difference to be noticable? :shrug:

It is, however, cheap and readily available. What makes it especially attractive to me is it can be thrown out, unlike antifreeze and many other additives.


I think the prospects are intersting enough for me to try it. And suffer any consequences, however, in all likely hood it won't do anything noticeable. In which case I have lost nothing and have gained knowledge. One the other hand if it works well then I have gained knowledge. If it fails miserably, then I will pay the price and gain knowledge.(However, what research I have done suggests that at worst it will do nothing.)

[BillA]

stev
some plastics don't tolerate alcohol (a soon to be released acrylic res)
easier for us to simply exclude

have you actually tried an x% soln of grain alcohol ?

[Long Haired Git]

Originally Posted by unregistered

never seen so many crap ideas in a single thread

Ahh, BillA, I have missed you.

[ricecrispi]

No one mention waterwetter or zerex+anti algae? Am I missing something?

As for the antifreeze, dump it in a closed container and leave it at any auto shop, oil change shop, or pep boys. The have recyclers come by to pick up used oil, antifreeze etc and get rid of it according to city regulations. Pepboys allows you leave it there for free and no hassle. Most autoshops don't care and will take upon request. If you are afraid to ask just, be sneaky and leave it the garage at night.

Look at the coolingworks rads at swiftech. Strong alternative.

[BGP Spook]

Originally Posted by ricecrispi

No one mention waterwetter or zerex+anti algae? Am I missing something?

As for the antifreeze, dump it in a closed container and leave it at any auto shop, oil change shop, or pep boys. The have recyclers come by to pick up used oil, antifreeze etc and get rid of it according to city regulations. Pepboys allows you leave it there for free and no hassle. Most autoshops don't care and will take upon request. If you are afraid to ask just, be sneaky and leave it the garage at night.

Look at the coolingworks rads at swiftech. Strong alternative.

I don't mean to sound snobish but did you read the bottom of post #11 in this thread?

I am not going to break the law.(I am legally only allowed to dump it at city approved locations.)

And no autoshop I would willingly do business with would either.(It is illegal for them to accept antifreeze form me.)

I would have to travel to another town to dump any anitfreeze I used. And they don't look kindly on people form other towns doing that. (I have tried. They don't care if you are from in town but they generally don't allow you to dump it if you are form out of town. I have tried mom and pop shops, Pepboys, and Advanced Auto Parts.)

Water wetter slow eats some tubing.
Zerex I would have to ship to me ($$) since no one carries it near me.

And neither one is easily disposed of in my city.

Anti-alge I will consider after I have exhausted other possibilities. The key being cheap. I know it doesn't cost much but I think baking soda might work with no side effects a little bit of cleaning wont solve so I will test it.

[nikhsub1]

Here is perhaps another crap idea, as it is neither cheap or fully accepted but here goes anyway; Silver is a pretty good growth inhibitor... find some pure silver, just a bit and somehow secure it in your res, perhaps epoxy and growth should be non existent.

[Brians256]

Zerex is like $5 plus a small bit for shipping and handling. You are spending a WHOLE lot of time trying to avoid like $10 worth of mechandise (it shouldn't cost more than $5 to ship). That 4 oz bottle will treat 80 oz of distilled water. DangerDen

For HydrX, it's about $1.35 for enough to treat 33oz of water (plus S/H). I calculated it will take $8.78 to ship 2 bottles (to treat 66 oz of water) to me by ground shipping. Swiftech Direct

You really think that fiddling around with baking soda and methanol is going to save you that much?

[ricecrispi]

I totally understand about not breaking the laws but man these regulations are just silly. You can't even dispose of this stuff at an autoshop or oil shop. How ugly is chesapeake bay these days?

Find the Zerex at some performance autoshop or tuner. You wont be flushing the system that much anyways. Worth the trouble or just use anti-algae. Any fish/pet store has is for pretty cheap.

the baking soda sounds silly but if you want to give it a shot I think we all will be curious about the results.