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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 12-19-2005, 11:32 PM   #1
Breach
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Default Updated: Non Production CSP Pump's in consumers hands.

Well, after loosing my second mag in 2 weeks, I decided I was pissed enough to tear the bastards apart and show everyone what I saw, as to recommend AGAINST buying these, and doing yourselves a big favor and get a Laing DDC or D5 instead.

For those who are impatient, both pumps succome to fatal corrosion of the internal motor assembly. So far my only conclusion is that a little bit of water got inside through the opening where the wires come out of the base. I seem to remember an article very close to the release of these pumps that stated the real pumps had a coating on the inside, and the review version on hand did not have this feature so it could be taken apart for review purposes (if i find where I read that I will post it). But guess what, it is very much untrue. There is only a couple of blobs of epoxy on the bottom and that's it. That is all that is protecting the whole motor from the environment. Nothing in the way of that small hole on the bottom whatsoever.

Now I will just say that I could be writing this out of spite, and my views might be scewed a bit because I basically threw money away on them. But I must ask why are these not waterproofed? If anyone can tell me that they've set up a liquid cooling system without spilling or loosing trace of some liquid I would call you a liar. I am sure all that caused this kind of failure is only a few drops, just enough to coat a few electrical contacts and start to react. This is just bad, bad design. Seems obvious to me that these were designed to move liquid, and is very likely they will be exposed to some liquid on the outside as well. These were not designed for submerged use, but just a couple of drops? Im sorry, but that just sucks.

The first sign of this failure is when the pump can no longer kickstart itself when power is applied. The second pump would turn if you gave the impeller a little nudge. But not from a cold start.

Some pics of the damage-

The first pump-



Pump housing with 2 white epoxy blobs holding the motor in place. Note the very large and unplugged hole where the power cord come in.



Corrosion and damage to the bottom PCB



You can see the green oxidization and rust all over the magnets

Pump 2-





Where the corroded metals contacted the white plastic housing.






So what more can I say. These pumps are crap. Not only from this bad design, but one of mine had that famous *click*click* sound from day 1 and never really nulled itself out. Come to think about it more, both pumps were a little differant than one another. Im fairly sure the second one ran hotter than the first, at least it felt that way to my hands.

I appologize for anything said that seems like a rant or out of anger, but im not really sure how else to feel about it. Ive lost both of my pumps for what I feel is a pretty stupid reason, and there is nothing I can do to replace or save them. Guess there is a DDC in my future.

-Breach
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Unread 12-19-2005, 11:40 PM   #2
Joe
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Default Re: The truth comes out - CSP-MAGs SUCK

nasty ansty nasty... thanks for the breakdown, this is the kind of stuff that keeps people on the right track when ordering stuff.
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Unread 12-20-2005, 12:19 AM   #3
Breach
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Default Re: The truth comes out - CSP-MAGs SUCK

Just blows my mind. The second pump worked great until today. I changed a waterblock, put it back togeather, powered on, and nothing from the pump

like say if I flicked the impeller it would start running, but just doenst have enough umph for a cold start with all that crap all over the stators i guess. I am going to try and resurect the second pump, it might be savable. i will let you all know on my progress with that.
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Unread 12-20-2005, 12:40 AM   #4
Wang
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Default Re: The truth comes out - CSP-MAGs SUCK

Wow it sucks that you have problems with your pumps. I'm glad you posted your experience with them, the more info the better.

It sucks harder cuz I was hoping for a great pump to come from Canada. I was going to buy it too, to support a local company. I guess some products and bean counters don't turn out too well. Sad. I'm glad I purchased an MCP350 to mod!
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Unread 12-20-2005, 08:23 AM   #5
BillA
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Default Re: The truth comes out - CSP-MAGs SUCK

it does not suck, it is the natural consequence of poor choices
this is the co that gave up retail for OEM
they started with cheap shit, and then became offended when it was called so
then called everyone a fool for presuming to describe what they observed (ALL shipping damage or misuse)
then the mag shit,

o lord we have a gullible group here (procooling ? eh ? - that reviewer thinking 'long term' ?)
send us another pump salesman for their truth is above all others
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Unread 12-20-2005, 02:20 PM   #6
ricecrispi
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Default Re: The truth comes out - CSP-MAGs SUCK

Bill is right and I am glad i am not gullible. Savingup for DDC.

I never trusted CSP or MAG pumps. Two bad models already. One was enough to scare me away.
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Unread 12-20-2005, 03:58 PM   #7
Brians256
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Default Re: The truth comes out - CSP-MAGs SUCK

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillA
it does not suck, it is the natural consequence of poor choices
this is the co that gave up retail for OEM
they started with cheap shit, and then became offended when it was called so
then called everyone a fool for presuming to describe what they observed (ALL shipping damage or misuse)
then the mag shit,

o lord we have a gullible group here (procooling ? eh ? - that reviewer thinking 'long term' ?)
send us another pump salesman for their truth is above all others
You did tell us, Bill, and I'm glad to have only Laing pumps in my systems. The pumps they make just keep on pumping.*

There's a reason why Swiftech was engineering towards products that had better MTBF numbers. In the long run, those are far better to have than a few dB of quietness. The other attributes are certainly good, but having a pump leak on you..... Just be glad it didn't ruin the mobo too.

*Eheim pumps seem to have good MTBF numbers too, and I have a couple of their pumps that I'm not using right now. And there are other good mfg companies like Iwaki too.
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Unread 12-21-2005, 01:57 PM   #8
stev
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Default Re: The truth comes out - CSP-MAGs SUCK

Breach,

That looks like an awful mess.

Usually, a pump like that would have gone through a demanding salt and humidity test for 72 hours to be that damaged. You don't live in the ocean do you???

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Unread 12-21-2005, 09:37 PM   #9
Breach
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Default Re: The truth comes out - CSP-MAGs SUCK

Yeah it looks worse in person.

There could be a happy ending though, I am attempting to repair and clean one of them, So far it isnt looking too bad. I will post about it if I can get it to run again.

But I just never thought that the pump would be the most vulnerable part of the system regarding liquid spillage.

I am in a coastal area, but I dont keep my computers outside
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Unread 01-06-2006, 08:19 AM   #10
Dave
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Default Re: The truth comes out - CSP-MAGs SUCK

ATTENTION ALL!!

Breach please remove this thread or modify it.

YOU DO NOT have a retail MAG.

I have no idea where you got this pump, but it is a "break away" model used for reviewers to take pictures of the stator and jeweled bearings.

I have no idea how it ran for even two weeks?

Retail Mags have a different motor cap, impeller, and ALL the electronic are surrounded with thermo conductive potting compound.

www.c-systems.ca/c_files/encaped.jpg

ANYONE that has one of these reviewer models need to remove it from there system ASAP !

We will replace it no matter where you received it from.

If you are in dout as too the facts, I suggest you discuss this with Robo (systemcooling) , he is aware of there are "reviewer" and retail models.

We made this model, because once you inject the potting compound, the pump can not be dis-assembled without major damage, making it impossible for reviewers to take pictures.





Dave B
C-Systems Support

Last edited by Dave; 01-06-2006 at 10:26 AM.
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Unread 01-06-2006, 10:59 AM   #11
stev
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Default Re: The truth comes out - CSP-MAGs SUCK

Thanks Dave for the UPDATE information. It really helps set the record straight!

Pre-production samples are just that, pre-prodution evaluation samples. They may never have a long life run time like the real production units.

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Unread 01-06-2006, 11:13 AM   #12
Dave
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Default Re: The truth comes out - CSP-MAGs SUCK

Thanks Stev, I guess there is some good from this. Any engineer should be impressed the unit ran as long as it did

The potting compound is not just for sealing, it is thermo conductive to keep the coils and transistor temp's low. We have been stating the pumps are overdesigned, nice to see some proof of that.
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Unread 01-06-2006, 12:13 PM   #13
Brians256
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Default Re: The truth comes out - CSP-MAGs SUCK

Whew! Thought that all units were subject to this failure mechanism. Not good that a regular consumer received an essentially non-functional demo unit.
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Unread 01-06-2006, 12:51 PM   #14
Joe
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Default Re: The truth comes out - CSP-MAGs SUCK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
ATTENTION ALL!!

Breach please remove this thread or modify it.

YOU DO NOT have a retail MAG.

I have no idea where you got this pump, but it is a "break away" model used for reviewers to take pictures of the stator and jeweled bearings.

I have no idea how it ran for even two weeks?

Retail Mags have a different motor cap, impeller, and ALL the electronic are surrounded with thermo conductive potting compound.

www.c-systems.ca/c_files/encaped.jpg

ANYONE that has one of these reviewer models need to remove it from there system ASAP !

We will replace it no matter where you received it from.

If you are in dout as too the facts, I suggest you discuss this with Robo (systemcooling) , he is aware of there are "reviewer" and retail models.

We made this model, because once you inject the potting compound, the pump can not be dis-assembled without major damage, making it impossible for reviewers to take pictures.





Dave B
C-Systems Support
Dave, I don't agree with asking for this thread to be removed. I think that while this is an unfortunate sequence of events that lead to him getting a non production pump. His issues are still valid and will stand as an example of why you need to make sure you don't buy these pumps from reviewers (as some sites sell off their reviewed hardware on ebay, and on their forums).

I will rename the thread though to something more appropriate in response to your request in PM Dave,
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Unread 01-06-2006, 12:59 PM   #15
Dave
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Default Re: Updated: Non Production CSP Pump's in consumers hands.

Big thank you Joe

Your point about not purchasing pumps from reviewers is 100% valid.

For the record, I asked Joe to "do something" which he did as a responsible host.

Dave
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Unread 01-06-2006, 01:55 PM   #16
stev
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Default Re: Updated: Non Production CSP Pump's in consumers hands.

Dave,

Some review sites offer sample products, after a review was done, as give-away prizes to increase visitor traffic and generate activity in their forums. Unless a company requests the product back after the review, those samples become lost to the general public.

Stev
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Unread 01-06-2006, 02:36 PM   #17
Dave
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Default Re: Updated: Non Production CSP Pump's in consumers hands.

^ This I know, but the reviewers I sent the pumps too where informed there was two models. One for testing, another for pictures, and the reasons why.

I had one reviewer take both models apart, just to make sure we did not "BS" them and change internal parts. No idea how long it took him to remove all the compound

I am sure this was not done on purpose, at least I hope not.
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Unread 01-06-2006, 02:45 PM   #18
Brians256
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Default Re: Updated: Non Production CSP Pump's in consumers hands.

It wouldn't be the first time a mfg used special parts on an item sent to reviewers. You might not, but there are many who will.
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Unread 01-09-2006, 10:22 AM   #19
csimon
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Default Re: Updated: Non Production CSP Pump's in consumers hands.

I might have one of those mags. I discovered one of two pumps had stopped working in series loop last week and when I took it apart there was all sorts of corrosion and stuff which looked like it started in the shaft. The other pump was fine ...I think. I've since cleaned out both pumps and I still use the one working pump.
My mag came from dtek. How can identify whether it is reviewer pump or not?
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Unread 01-10-2006, 12:18 PM   #20
Dave
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Default Re: Updated: Non Production CSP Pump's in consumers hands.

^Don't take the risk, I will replace them for you just in case.

Just PM me
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Unread 01-11-2006, 12:08 PM   #21
csimon
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Default Re: Updated: Non Production CSP Pump's in consumers hands.

Thanks for all your help Dave!
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Unread 01-11-2006, 01:14 PM   #22
ThyKingdomCome
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Default Re: Updated: Non Production CSP Pump's in consumers hands.

This is insanity.

Can anyone here say they went through 5 pumps from c-cystems all with a life span of 1-4 months?

I bought 2 of the blue earlier models, and each died in quick succession as they rusted out the interiors and died a noisy death. These were replaced to the credit of c-systems over a period of 2-3 months of continuous emailing and wondering where my packages were.

The second batch came to replace the 1st failures and only one of the 2 worked. The second pump just ticked and clacked with noise. It was brand new, in a pristine box, no damage and no scratches on it.

The "revelation" excuse given for this was, "UPS really damaged this unit, it had damage that bent the housing screws!". Remember, that the pump was clacking when it was in perfect condition upon arrival. So the return shipping had NOTHING to do with this failure, if that happened at all.

During this time I am running on the new mag. This mag died 2 months ago as water poured out into may case from the mag's housing. (3 month life) I now have the replacement for the UPS damaged pump.. and it is loosing water in my closed loop immediately. In 2 months I have re-filled the large fill tube and re-sealed it.

There is no additive in these, as Dave says that additive destroys these pumps. I am not talking manufacturer’s samples; I am not talking un-natural circumstances either.

I have kept quiet about this entire ordeal, just to see Dave give out claims of, "wow, never seen this", or "this is so unusual" and only a handful have had problems our knowledge mantra. I am not going to go on and on.. and on about these failures and from my track record you have to give me credit for being very long-suffering and SLOW to judge. In fact my silence over the last year should prove that I am not just trying to be malicious. Can anyone claim a 5-5 failure record all being from "new out of the box" to 4 months tops? Joe, you are not doing anyone a favor by accommodating any part of the endless stories that I am seeing from Dave.

I don't want my money back, I am tired of dealing with these mag's all together. My advice would be to stay away from them like the bird flu. The thing that disgusts me is seeing another excuse or outright fabrication come out. (I am not even arguing that this is or isn’t a retailer view of a mag)
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Unread 01-11-2006, 01:29 PM   #23
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Default Re: Updated: Non Production CSP Pump's in consumers hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
^Don't take the risk, I will replace them for you just in case.

Just PM me
Thanks for the good customer service, Dave.
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Unread 01-11-2006, 01:55 PM   #24
BillA
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Default Re: Updated: Non Production CSP Pump's in consumers hands.

having difficulty reconciling posts 22 and 23
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Unread 01-11-2006, 02:06 PM   #25
Joe
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Default Re: Updated: Non Production CSP Pump's in consumers hands.

Quote:
Joe, you are not doing anyone a favor by accommodating any part of the endless stories that I am seeing from Dave.
Sorry but I give people the benifit of the doubt some times, shit happens, companies screw up. If there is a bigger story here tell it, and present your side. (as you have).
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