TBreds = toasty chips

pHaestus · 10-05-2002, 05:58 PM

I got the PC-50 up and running last night/today.

Kudos to Zoson from the Pro/Chat for pointing me to a weird issue between Ti200 cards and the Epox 8K3A.

I have two CPUs that I have tried out: a 1600+ XP and a 2200+ TBred rev A. The 1600+ (1400MHz default) does 1900MHz@2.0V with CPU temps around 50C (case temp is 32C and water temps are in the process of being measured). The 2200+ XP does 1971 at 1.7V but CPU temps are over 60C! I mounted the block a couple of times; good contact and paste. Looks like the increased heat density is a real concern. I don't know if I have a heatsink I could even use on a chip like this.

I am planning to put the 1600+ back in in a week or two and try pelting the TBred. Seems like that's the only thing that might let me o/c it much.

bigben2k · 10-05-2002, 06:23 PM

That tough! Did you consider increasing the airflow rate?

I've decided to go with a radial fan from a car. At 12V, these things can definitely get me the .25 inch H2O pressure drop that I need, and quietly. Of course fitting the darn thing is going to be an issue...

Maybe you could give us a feel for the temps? Does the waterblock feel hot? do the hoses feel warm? What about the air going through the rad?

pHaestus · 10-05-2002, 06:34 PM

Wondering if maybe the Innovatek block maybe doesn't apply pressure directly over the core or something. The core is pretty tiny.

I just got bold and tightened the clip another half turn or so. I am sort of surprised it would give any at all (thought I had it tight). Running CPUBurn at 2013MHz now...

Hoses feel roughly room temp. Airflow through the rad is ok; a littler warmer than with the XP (the rad is blowing into the case and case temps rose from 32C to 35C I just noticed). The interface is the issue, but I am not sure that it is a mounting problem instead of just a size problem...

bigben2k · 10-06-2002, 10:20 AM

You might be right. Out of all the blocks out there, the Innovatech is the first one that would see a performance hit because of the smaller core, IMO.

ksw · 10-06-2002, 11:02 AM

bigben2k: it wouldnt be so hard. but as alyays, you would have to make the mount larger than the end, tich would roughly look like this
|\_
|
| _ RAD
|/

and that might not be such a good things, but those large fans get a pretty nice preassure. if you are talking standard circular fans and not these small drum fans?

bigben2k · 10-06-2002, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ksw
bigben2k: it wouldnt be so hard. but as alyays, you would have to make the mount larger than the end, tich would roughly look like this
|\_
|
| _ RAD
|/

and that might not be such a good things, but those large fans get a pretty nice preassure. if you are talking standard circular fans and not these small drum fans?

(Rough translation!)

Here's a PDF to a blower from Delta

This particular unit (not the one I'm going to get) can achieve a max pressure drop of 2 inches H2O!!! Of course it's very loud, but what do you expect for 200 CFM?

This blower isn't quite what I have in mind, but it's close. Imagine a blower, of that design, encased, with an outlet (side?), and that's what I'm shooting for. Add a rheobus, and drop the RPM to a quiet level, while still maintaining at least 0.25 inch H2O pressure drop.

What I like about that Delta unit is that the motor sits inside the squirrel cage, so it's not so bulky.

(Sorry pHaestus, I don't have my own worklog yet!)

ksw · 10-06-2002, 11:58 AM

hey u are talking wrong things. i am talking about 25" carradiator fans. i think Ford uses them. they are circular and 12v. blowing liek 900cfm or something. put it outside your windwos along with the radiator and a cable for power....

pHaestus · 10-06-2002, 12:16 PM

No worries Ben. Someone in the forums suggested that the TBred might not be quite as tall and so the Innovatek wasn't applying as much pressure. I don't know if I believe that or not. I am leaning towards higher heat density myself still. Isn't it something like 1W/mm^2 instead of 0.6W/mm^2 for TBred vs. XP? After a day, it seems totally stable at 1981MHz so that isn't terrible.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the loop itself; the XP stays cool and it produces far more heat at 1900MHz and 2V.

I am not interested in doing any changes to this system; it is more or less done. I couldn't fit big blowers or a huge rad into this mini/mid anyway, and even if Icould I would probably not see water temps more than 1 or 2 C lower than with the BI Extreme.

Since this chip seems to be ASKING for it though I am gonna pull it out and pelt it with a 226W. It's getting close to winter so I will try and take advantage of the -20 to -30C weather here to cool the water for the pelt. That will just be a monstrosity on my desk though and not something I try to fit in my swank LAN box

ksw · 10-06-2002, 03:11 PM

hmm i know a guy who drags hes hx08 with a 172w pelt to lan's. but he always get a single 10amp fuse for hes box alone... he kinda VIP... but anyway, that s too large to be useful.
im on the lookout for a new case, and im thinking on these alucases, not lian.-lis, but i think Atlas makes em, and they look really nice. http://www.dansdata.com/images/atlas/blackinside500.jpg .......

BillA · 10-06-2002, 10:30 PM

pHaestus
re the CPU height
I do think it is an issue - but I know of no dwg to reference
when they were first described I commented that all the hsf mfgrs would need new models, but I guess they are ignoring it ??
(make an adaptor for the mobo holes - but it is a BITCH to keep square when mounting)

pHaestus · 10-06-2002, 10:40 PM

That does seem familiar Bill. I also noticed that since the core is about 1/2 the size of the XP that the vertical position of the block also makes a difference. I think that if it was slightly off that was enough to make the core not get pressure over the center. I pulled out the TBred for now and have the XP running. A $60 1900MHz chip is not keeping AMD in business but good for the o/cers.

I will mate the TBred with a block that uses all the mobo's holes and springs soon. I am still thinking pelt.

Wouldn't that make the Swiftech blocks a potential problem too? I guess with them I could just add another washer or two though.

BillA · 10-06-2002, 10:46 PM

probably, but the only part of the Swiftech kit I use are the springs
(and ya GOT to measure them !)
their 'new' wb are a pain as the springs are recessed, I set them on top of a washer

pHaestus · 10-06-2002, 10:56 PM

Probably making things too hard. I could just use a piece of aluminum on top of the block to "shim" it down a little more. Would be a lot easier than trying to get it to stay even with holddowns...

BillA · 10-06-2002, 11:03 PM

simple is always better
theirs is a super clamp (even if I can't use mine)

HelpImNewbish · 10-07-2002, 01:17 PM

I wonder if the TbredBs produce as much heat per clock as the TBredAs.

ksw: I have that case myself. Its probably the best case i've ever had, but for watercooling..... Theres not enough room on the back for a 120mm mount, and on the top and front it requires a lot of rivet popping and cutting through 2 play alu to get a 120 mount. The front is almost out of the question for it too. You'd have to cut through the acryllic AND aluminum, plus theere is an extra alu plate on the bottom with rivets, and the front usb mounts get in the way too. Probably the wirst buy I ever made, considering how I really wanted a case that would be easy to set up a WC system in. You could do it, like using 2 80mm and a shroud, but it would really get ghetto, and the case itself is going for a look thats anything but ghetto.

Anyway, I hope that helps ya. I'm actually going to move my optical drives down and cut a hole up top for my BIX, until I decide to upgrade to a cube case with a pelt.

ksw · 10-07-2002, 02:17 PM

who says im going to watercool it? maybe ill make a MICRO system, low flow, bix radiator, and a high surface area wb. that wouldnt be so much AND who says i will have to mod it? maybe ill pait the PSU black and mount it outside the case or just place it somewhere else.

Cyco-Dude · 10-07-2002, 08:00 PM

pHaes, what are the specs for this thing?? BIX and Inovatech is it? what pump? what flowrate?

those temps are crazy lol. the water temp should let you know if its a contact problem.
i wonder what the temp would be if you used a larger block such as the spir@l, or a heatercore style rad.........or more flowrate..........(well, i could guess what that would do, but how much?? within reasonable limits.......)

im not sure i like the silicone hose. the water in my system 'disappeared' over a period of several weeks (maybe water does evaporate thru the hose like every-1 says?? i wouldve liked to try the setup with tygon and cheap vinyl to see if they have the same results, but its a real PITA to mess with a closed loop system lol. needless to say my CAK-38 is back on FTM...)

k, 'nuff yammering heheheh

pHaestus · 10-07-2002, 08:48 PM

Pretty sure it isn't a cooling loop setup; have a 1600+ o/ced to 1900MHz at 2.05V and only 46-47C die temps.

BI Extreme, Innovatek wb and GPU block, Laguna 3 stauary pump (380GPH) http://www.hagen.com/pdf/ponds/Lagun...uary_Pumps.pdf

1/2" tubing and 3/8" tubing mixed with all 1/2 barbs.

HelpImNewbish · 10-08-2002, 08:27 PM

No need to get defensive, I'm telling you my experiences and observations based on actually having the case and spending lots of time exploring options to watercool with it.

I guess i'm wrong to go out on a huge limb and assume you're going to watercool, since you come to this website, beside the fact that if you want to watercool in the FUTURE, you'd be spending a lot of money on a case thats not good for it, at all.

yoshana · 10-09-2002, 03:46 PM

I have a 2200 under an alpha w/ torando (84cfm)

Idle is like 53C @ 2003Mhz on my 8k3a
Load is like 58C

I was shocked at the temps.

The old proc was a 1900+
Idle was 41C @ 1754Mhz
Load was like 47C

Needless to say I reseated the alpha 3 times using AS3, thinking I was screwing up the contact.

The 2200 seems to run HOT, seems like the pelt is the only option to get decent cooling.. or vapor...

10-05-2002, 05:58 PM	#1
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	TBreds = toasty chips I got the PC-50 up and running last night/today. Kudos to Zoson from the Pro/Chat for pointing me to a weird issue between Ti200 cards and the Epox 8K3A. I have two CPUs that I have tried out: a 1600+ XP and a 2200+ TBred rev A. The 1600+ (1400MHz default) does 1900MHz@2.0V with CPU temps around 50C (case temp is 32C and water temps are in the process of being measured). The 2200+ XP does 1971 at 1.7V but CPU temps are over 60C! I mounted the block a couple of times; good contact and paste. Looks like the increased heat density is a real concern. I don't know if I have a heatsink I could even use on a chip like this. I am planning to put the 1600+ back in in a week or two and try pelting the TBred. Seems like that's the only thing that might let me o/c it much.

10-05-2002, 06:23 PM	#2
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	That tough! Did you consider increasing the airflow rate? I've decided to go with a radial fan from a car. At 12V, these things can definitely get me the .25 inch H2O pressure drop that I need, and quietly. Of course fitting the darn thing is going to be an issue... Maybe you could give us a feel for the temps? Does the waterblock feel hot? do the hoses feel warm? What about the air going through the rad? __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

10-06-2002, 10:20 AM	#4
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	You might be right. Out of all the blocks out there, the Innovatech is the first one that would see a performance hit because of the smaller core, IMO. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

10-06-2002, 11:02 AM	#5
ksw Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: SWEDEN(cold...) Posts: 195	bigben2k: it wouldnt be so hard. but as alyays, you would have to make the mount larger than the end, tich would roughly look like this \|\_ \| \| _ RAD \|/ and that might not be such a good things, but those large fans get a pretty nice preassure. if you are talking standard circular fans and not these small drum fans? __________________ www.webraced.com <- addicted as hell /me is!

10-06-2002, 11:58 AM	#7
ksw Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: SWEDEN(cold...) Posts: 195	hey u are talking wrong things. i am talking about 25" carradiator fans. i think Ford uses them. they are circular and 12v. blowing liek 900cfm or something. put it outside your windwos along with the radiator and a cable for power.... __________________ www.webraced.com <- addicted as hell /me is!

10-05-2002, 06:34 PM	#3
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	Wondering if maybe the Innovatek block maybe doesn't apply pressure directly over the core or something. The core is pretty tiny. I just got bold and tightened the clip another half turn or so. I am sort of surprised it would give any at all (thought I had it tight). Running CPUBurn at 2013MHz now... Hoses feel roughly room temp. Airflow through the rad is ok; a littler warmer than with the XP (the rad is blowing into the case and case temps rose from 32C to 35C I just noticed). The interface is the issue, but I am not sure that it is a mounting problem instead of just a size problem...

10-06-2002, 12:16 PM	#8
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	No worries Ben. Someone in the forums suggested that the TBred might not be quite as tall and so the Innovatek wasn't applying as much pressure. I don't know if I believe that or not. I am leaning towards higher heat density myself still. Isn't it something like 1W/mm^2 instead of 0.6W/mm^2 for TBred vs. XP? After a day, it seems totally stable at 1981MHz so that isn't terrible. I don't think there is anything wrong with the loop itself; the XP stays cool and it produces far more heat at 1900MHz and 2V. I am not interested in doing any changes to this system; it is more or less done. I couldn't fit big blowers or a huge rad into this mini/mid anyway, and even if Icould I would probably not see water temps more than 1 or 2 C lower than with the BI Extreme. Since this chip seems to be ASKING for it though I am gonna pull it out and pelt it with a 226W. It's getting close to winter so I will try and take advantage of the -20 to -30C weather here to cool the water for the pelt. That will just be a monstrosity on my desk though and not something I try to fit in my swank LAN box

10-06-2002, 03:11 PM	#9
ksw Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: SWEDEN(cold...) Posts: 195	hmm i know a guy who drags hes hx08 with a 172w pelt to lan's. but he always get a single 10amp fuse for hes box alone... he kinda VIP... but anyway, that s too large to be useful. im on the lookout for a new case, and im thinking on these alucases, not lian.-lis, but i think Atlas makes em, and they look really nice. http://www.dansdata.com/images/atlas/blackinside500.jpg ....... __________________ www.webraced.com <- addicted as hell /me is!

10-06-2002, 10:30 PM	#10
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	pHaestus re the CPU height I do think it is an issue - but I know of no dwg to reference when they were first described I commented that all the hsf mfgrs would need new models, but I guess they are ignoring it ?? (make an adaptor for the mobo holes - but it is a BITCH to keep square when mounting)

10-06-2002, 10:40 PM	#11
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	That does seem familiar Bill. I also noticed that since the core is about 1/2 the size of the XP that the vertical position of the block also makes a difference. I think that if it was slightly off that was enough to make the core not get pressure over the center. I pulled out the TBred for now and have the XP running. A $60 1900MHz chip is not keeping AMD in business but good for the o/cers. I will mate the TBred with a block that uses all the mobo's holes and springs soon. I am still thinking pelt. Wouldn't that make the Swiftech blocks a potential problem too? I guess with them I could just add another washer or two though.

10-06-2002, 10:46 PM	#12
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	probably, but the only part of the Swiftech kit I use are the springs (and ya GOT to measure them !) their 'new' wb are a pain as the springs are recessed, I set them on top of a washer

10-06-2002, 10:56 PM	#13
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	Probably making things too hard. I could just use a piece of aluminum on top of the block to "shim" it down a little more. Would be a lot easier than trying to get it to stay even with holddowns...

10-06-2002, 11:03 PM	#14
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	simple is always better theirs is a super clamp (even if I can't use mine)

10-07-2002, 01:17 PM	#15
HelpImNewbish Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Hickville Posts: 41	I wonder if the TbredBs produce as much heat per clock as the TBredAs. ksw: I have that case myself. Its probably the best case i've ever had, but for watercooling..... Theres not enough room on the back for a 120mm mount, and on the top and front it requires a lot of rivet popping and cutting through 2 play alu to get a 120 mount. The front is almost out of the question for it too. You'd have to cut through the acryllic AND aluminum, plus theere is an extra alu plate on the bottom with rivets, and the front usb mounts get in the way too. Probably the wirst buy I ever made, considering how I really wanted a case that would be easy to set up a WC system in. You could do it, like using 2 80mm and a shroud, but it would really get ghetto, and the case itself is going for a look thats anything but ghetto. Anyway, I hope that helps ya. I'm actually going to move my optical drives down and cut a hole up top for my BIX, until I decide to upgrade to a cube case with a pelt. __________________ The name says it all.

10-07-2002, 02:17 PM	#16
ksw Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: SWEDEN(cold...) Posts: 195	who says im going to watercool it? maybe ill make a MICRO system, low flow, bix radiator, and a high surface area wb. that wouldnt be so much AND who says i will have to mod it? maybe ill pait the PSU black and mount it outside the case or just place it somewhere else. __________________ www.webraced.com <- addicted as hell /me is!

10-07-2002, 08:00 PM	#17
Cyco-Dude Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 836	pHaes, what are the specs for this thing?? BIX and Inovatech is it? what pump? what flowrate? those temps are crazy lol. the water temp should let you know if its a contact problem. i wonder what the temp would be if you used a larger block such as the spir@l, or a heatercore style rad.........or more flowrate..........(well, i could guess what that would do, but how much?? within reasonable limits.......) im not sure i like the silicone hose. the water in my system 'disappeared' over a period of several weeks (maybe water does evaporate thru the hose like every-1 says?? i wouldve liked to try the setup with tygon and cheap vinyl to see if they have the same results, but its a real PITA to mess with a closed loop system lol. needless to say my CAK-38 is back on FTM...) k, 'nuff yammering heheheh

10-07-2002, 08:48 PM	#18
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	Pretty sure it isn't a cooling loop setup; have a 1600+ o/ced to 1900MHz at 2.05V and only 46-47C die temps. BI Extreme, Innovatek wb and GPU block, Laguna 3 stauary pump (380GPH) http://www.hagen.com/pdf/ponds/Lagun...uary_Pumps.pdf 1/2" tubing and 3/8" tubing mixed with all 1/2 barbs.

10-08-2002, 08:27 PM	#19
HelpImNewbish Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Hickville Posts: 41	No need to get defensive, I'm telling you my experiences and observations based on actually having the case and spending lots of time exploring options to watercool with it. I guess i'm wrong to go out on a huge limb and assume you're going to watercool, since you come to this website, beside the fact that if you want to watercool in the FUTURE, you'd be spending a lot of money on a case thats not good for it, at all. __________________ The name says it all.

10-09-2002, 03:46 PM	#20
yoshana Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MN Posts: 23	xp2200+ heat I have a 2200 under an alpha w/ torando (84cfm) Idle is like 53C @ 2003Mhz on my 8k3a Load is like 58C I was shocked at the temps. The old proc was a 1900+ Idle was 41C @ 1754Mhz Load was like 47C Needless to say I reseated the alpha 3 times using AS3, thinking I was screwing up the contact. The 2200 seems to run HOT, seems like the pelt is the only option to get decent cooling.. or vapor...

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