Water cooled CPU backside?

bigben2k · 01-09-2003, 12:35 PM

I had a crazy idea...

What if we water-cooled the backside of the CPU? We could attach a copper micro tube with Arctic Silver epoxy, and run plastic micro tubes through the socket, the same way that Joe ran 28 AWG gauge wire?

The smallest copper tubing I found (at McMaster) is 1/16 OD, with a .014" wall, for an ID of .0345".

Gotta find smaller tubing...

It's definitely a warranty void'er!

bigben2k · 01-09-2003, 12:59 PM

Some more info...

According to this russian page, 28 gauge wire is about 0.3 - 0.4 mm in diameter.

I'd basically be looking for a plastic tube whose OD is less than 1/64"...

cybrsamurai · 01-09-2003, 01:09 PM

Sounds really tricky. Post your results!

Good luck

bigben2k · 01-09-2003, 01:11 PM

According to AMD CPU specs, the clearance between the pins should be 1.8mm, minus the pin, which is .43 to .50, leaving about 1.3 mm, aka 3/64". That would have to be the plastic tube's OD. (bigger than I tought!)

(calculated from AMD specs, for a 45 degree insertion)

dax · 01-09-2003, 01:37 PM

I wouldn't put COPPER tubing between the CPU pins... dunno why

bigben2k · 01-09-2003, 01:48 PM

Of course not, that's why I mentionned plastic microtubes!

McMaster has PEEK tubing,1/16" OD, with different colors for the ID:

Red, .005" ID, .029" wall
Yellow, .007" ID, .028" wall
Blue, .010" ID, .026" wall
Orange, .020" ID, .021" wall
Green, .030" ID, .016" wall

but 1/16 is still BIG! I need 3/64"...

bigben2k · 01-09-2003, 01:57 PM

Ok, it should be possible to run 9 microtubes:
(I don't want to risk using AS epoxy so close to the top and bottom rows of pins)

Brians256 · 01-09-2003, 02:06 PM

Just XRay your mobo to see where you can drill through the backside and run tubing in that way. Simple!

Puzzdre · 01-09-2003, 02:08 PM

Can you estimate the gain for this microsurgery operation? Any idea how much will one gain in temp decrease for going through all of this?:shrug:

Puzzdre · 01-09-2003, 02:12 PM

Aren't there some SMD components (cache I think) on the backside of some cpu's? They'll be in the way...

pHaestus · 01-09-2003, 02:12 PM

Would be better off trying to cool all the little hot components on mobo near socket. Also here is an informative article on similar topic:

http://www.overclockers.com/articles498/

bigben2k · 01-09-2003, 02:14 PM

Now where am I gonna get my mobo X-rayed?

Come to think of it, there'll be multiple layers (6 or more?) within the PCB.

I found small tubes:
McMaster has "Extreme-Temperature Polyimide Tubing", and it comes in sizes ranging from .0065" to .1660" OD, and .0050" to .1600 ID.

• Temp. Range: -452° to +752° F
• Color: Amber
• Durometer, Rockwell M: 98 (hard)
• Tensile Strength: 20,000 psi
• Elongation: 50%
• Fittings: Join with Adhesive (see 7733A on page 3127)

This tubing has the widest temperature range of any nonmetallic tubing we offer. It withstands high pressures, plus provides excellent strength, chemical resistance, and abrasion resistance. Tubing is nonflammable and complies with USP Class VI for biocompatibility.
Furnished in a package of five, 1-ft. lengths of tubing.

It's $25.00 per pkg...

Sled_Dog · 01-09-2003, 02:23 PM

no offense but I think your really wasting your time, big time. You should just hardcore cool your mofsets and misc. board chips around the CPU rather than spend so much time trying to cool off the back side of the chip like this. How much heat really makes it through that ceramic? Sure itgets hot but I doubt its gonna really effect the core unless you pump like frozen water through there.

bigben2k · 01-09-2003, 02:44 PM

That ceramic is 1.00 to 1.20 mm (according to AMD) and yes, I would be running a chiller...

Hey, it's just an idea!

Benefits? Well Joe C got a 0.5 deg C drop, but that was air only, not even a heatsink.

If I could cut through the mobo, I could fit a micro waterblock; heck of a lot easier...

bigben2k · 01-09-2003, 03:04 PM

A little parts recap:

Copper tubes:
P/N 8967K51
1 PKG = $9.98
Package content: 20 tubes, 1 foot length each.
OD: 1/16" (.0625", or 1.59 mm)
ID: .0345" (0.88 mm)
wall: .014" (0.36 mm)

Plastic tubes:
P/N 5707K16
1 pkg = $25.00
Package content: 5 tubes, 1 foot length each
OD: .0246" (0.63 mm)
ID: .0226" (0.57 mm)
wall: .0010" (0.025 mm)

Arctic Silver Epoxy
$9.00

Goop
(always have handy)

a small drill bit
(always have handy)

Then I'd need to build a couple of res, probably out of PVC parts, with barbs...

It's possible, I just don't have the time to do it.

resago · 01-09-2003, 03:06 PM

I watercool my backside twice a day.

bigben2k · 01-09-2003, 03:20 PM

LOL! We finally got you out in the open again!

bigben2k · 01-09-2003, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Puzzdre
Aren't there some SMD components (cache I think) on the backside of some cpu's? They'll be in the way...

That depends on which CPU you use... I believe that Thoroughbred B's have all the little parts moved on the front side.

I found it: click me! for a picture of the backsides of Thunderbird, Palomino and Thoroughbred cored CPUs.

Puzzdre · 01-09-2003, 05:48 PM

Now where do you dig all that stuff....

What are the thermal properties of that plastic housing on palominos and tbreds?

jaydee · 01-09-2003, 06:30 PM

I think this is to easy for a persons of your intelegance.

http://www.amdzone.com/articleimages...ammerclose.jpg
I want to see you do it to one of those!!!!

Seriously though I am not sure this is a good idea or not. If you run chilled water back there you are going to somehow need to water proof things back there. But I think you could use one of them small fish tank pumps for the pump. Sure do not want to use a 370gph one.

cybrsamurai · 01-09-2003, 06:41 PM

Jaydee if you get me one ill give it a try!

Seyeklopz · 07-01-2003, 12:48 PM

I did a little bit of searching online and found reference to 1/64" tubing used in passive solar panels. Maybe that's somewhere you can focus your search?

Seyeklopz · 07-01-2003, 01:06 PM

This might be what you need.
PTFE tubing aimed at medical equipment
0.3mm ID 0.8mm OD tubing

There is a link to request a brochure or catalog.

Seyeklopz · 07-01-2003, 01:20 PM

What about modding the cpu pins? Is it possible to solder insulated wires of the same length to the cpu pins, submerge it in florinert, then route the wires to the socket? You could have a waterblock inside the florinert container to directly cool the top of the cpu and also cool the florinert with copper fins/peltiers.

OK, getting complicated. Need to sketch something a little more streamlined.

iggiebee · 07-01-2003, 02:06 PM

If you do not mind not having the mobo CPU thermistor, you could drill out that section, and have bigger access to the underside of the CPU. If I remember correctly there is even a guide posted somewhere on how to do this.

01-09-2003, 12:35 PM	#1
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Water cooled CPU backside? I had a crazy idea... What if we water-cooled the backside of the CPU? We could attach a copper micro tube with Arctic Silver epoxy, and run plastic micro tubes through the socket, the same way that Joe ran 28 AWG gauge wire? The smallest copper tubing I found (at McMaster) is 1/16 OD, with a .014" wall, for an ID of .0345". Gotta find smaller tubing... It's definitely a warranty void'er! __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

01-09-2003, 12:59 PM	#2
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Some more info... According to this russian page, 28 gauge wire is about 0.3 - 0.4 mm in diameter. I'd basically be looking for a plastic tube whose OD is less than 1/64"... __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

01-09-2003, 01:09 PM	#3
cybrsamurai Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Ashland Posts: 296	Sounds really tricky. Post your results! Good luck __________________ Air cooled my ass.

01-09-2003, 01:11 PM	#4
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	According to AMD CPU specs, the clearance between the pins should be 1.8mm, minus the pin, which is .43 to .50, leaving about 1.3 mm, aka 3/64". That would have to be the plastic tube's OD. (bigger than I tought!) (calculated from AMD specs, for a 45 degree insertion) __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101 Last edited by bigben2k; 01-09-2003 at 01:35 PM.

01-09-2003, 01:48 PM	#6
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Of course not, that's why I mentionned plastic microtubes! McMaster has PEEK tubing,1/16" OD, with different colors for the ID: Red, .005" ID, .029" wall Yellow, .007" ID, .028" wall Blue, .010" ID, .026" wall Orange, .020" ID, .021" wall Green, .030" ID, .016" wall but 1/16 is still BIG! I need 3/64"... __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

01-09-2003, 01:37 PM	#5
dax Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Ghent, Belgium Posts: 83	I wouldn't put COPPER tubing between the CPU pins... dunno why

01-09-2003, 02:06 PM	#8
Brians256 Pro/Staff Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Klamath Falls, OR Posts: 1,439	Just XRay your mobo to see where you can drill through the backside and run tubing in that way. Simple!

01-09-2003, 02:08 PM	#9
Puzzdre Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Croatia Posts: 969	microsurgery Can you estimate the gain for this microsurgery operation? Any idea how much will one gain in temp decrease for going through all of this?:shrug: __________________ 'Out of cheese error... ...please reboot the universe (press the GBL to continue)'

01-09-2003, 02:12 PM	#10
Puzzdre Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Croatia Posts: 969	Aren't there some SMD components (cache I think) on the backside of some cpu's? They'll be in the way... __________________ 'Out of cheese error... ...please reboot the universe (press the GBL to continue)'

01-09-2003, 02:12 PM	#11
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	Would be better off trying to cool all the little hot components on mobo near socket. Also here is an informative article on similar topic: http://www.overclockers.com/articles498/

01-09-2003, 02:14 PM	#12
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Now where am I gonna get my mobo X-rayed? Come to think of it, there'll be multiple layers (6 or more?) within the PCB. I found small tubes: McMaster has "Extreme-Temperature Polyimide Tubing", and it comes in sizes ranging from .0065" to .1660" OD, and .0050" to .1600 ID. • Temp. Range: -452° to +752° F • Color: Amber • Durometer, Rockwell M: 98 (hard) • Tensile Strength: 20,000 psi • Elongation: 50% • Fittings: Join with Adhesive (see 7733A on page 3127) This tubing has the widest temperature range of any nonmetallic tubing we offer. It withstands high pressures, plus provides excellent strength, chemical resistance, and abrasion resistance. Tubing is nonflammable and complies with USP Class VI for biocompatibility. Furnished in a package of five, 1-ft. lengths of tubing. It's $25.00 per pkg... __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

01-09-2003, 02:23 PM	#13
Sled_Dog Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Snowyland(not Alaska) Posts: 238	no offense but I think your really wasting your time, big time. You should just hardcore cool your mofsets and misc. board chips around the CPU rather than spend so much time trying to cool off the back side of the chip like this. How much heat really makes it through that ceramic? Sure itgets hot but I doubt its gonna really effect the core unless you pump like frozen water through there. __________________ pro/chat has a website now? wow

01-09-2003, 02:44 PM	#14
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	That ceramic is 1.00 to 1.20 mm (according to AMD) and yes, I would be running a chiller... Hey, it's just an idea! Benefits? Well Joe C got a 0.5 deg C drop, but that was air only, not even a heatsink. If I could cut through the mobo, I could fit a micro waterblock; heck of a lot easier... __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

01-09-2003, 03:04 PM	#15
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	A little parts recap: Copper tubes: P/N 8967K51 1 PKG = $9.98 Package content: 20 tubes, 1 foot length each. OD: 1/16" (.0625", or 1.59 mm) ID: .0345" (0.88 mm) wall: .014" (0.36 mm) Plastic tubes: P/N 5707K16 1 pkg = $25.00 Package content: 5 tubes, 1 foot length each OD: .0246" (0.63 mm) ID: .0226" (0.57 mm) wall: .0010" (0.025 mm) Arctic Silver Epoxy $9.00 Goop (always have handy) a small drill bit (always have handy) Then I'd need to build a couple of res, probably out of PVC parts, with barbs... It's possible, I just don't have the time to do it. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101 Last edited by bigben2k; 01-09-2003 at 04:57 PM.

01-09-2003, 03:06 PM	#16
resago Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: state of denial Posts: 488	I watercool my backside twice a day. __________________ 2.4Ghz Compaq Workstation 2.8Ghz Custom 2700+ Custom still running 2000!!!! Help with Coding www.resago.com

01-09-2003, 03:20 PM	#17
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	LOL! We finally got you out in the open again! __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

01-09-2003, 05:48 PM	#19
Puzzdre Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Croatia Posts: 969	Now where do you dig all that stuff.... What are the thermal properties of that plastic housing on palominos and tbreds? __________________ 'Out of cheese error... ...please reboot the universe (press the GBL to continue)'

01-09-2003, 06:30 PM	#20
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	I think this is to easy for a persons of your intelegance. http://www.amdzone.com/articleimages...ammerclose.jpg I want to see you do it to one of those!!!! Seriously though I am not sure this is a good idea or not. If you run chilled water back there you are going to somehow need to water proof things back there. But I think you could use one of them small fish tank pumps for the pump. Sure do not want to use a 370gph one.

01-09-2003, 06:41 PM	#21
cybrsamurai Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Ashland Posts: 296	Jaydee if you get me one ill give it a try! __________________ Air cooled my ass.

07-01-2003, 12:48 PM	#22
Seyeklopz Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada Posts: 94	I did a little bit of searching online and found reference to 1/64" tubing used in passive solar panels. Maybe that's somewhere you can focus your search?

07-01-2003, 01:06 PM	#23
Seyeklopz Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada Posts: 94	This might be what you need. PTFE tubing aimed at medical equipment 0.3mm ID 0.8mm OD tubing There is a link to request a brochure or catalog.

07-01-2003, 01:20 PM	#24
Seyeklopz Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada Posts: 94	What about modding the cpu pins? Is it possible to solder insulated wires of the same length to the cpu pins, submerge it in florinert, then route the wires to the socket? You could have a waterblock inside the florinert container to directly cool the top of the cpu and also cool the florinert with copper fins/peltiers. OK, getting complicated. Need to sketch something a little more streamlined.

07-01-2003, 02:06 PM	#25
iggiebee Cooling Savant Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Miami, Florida US Posts: 117	If you do not mind not having the mobo CPU thermistor, you could drill out that section, and have bigger access to the underside of the CPU. If I remember correctly there is even a guide posted somewhere on how to do this. __________________ I stop for 1 C. "Those that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1773)

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