Calculate This!

BladeRunner · 07-30-2003, 01:40 PM

Ok so I've got to come off the underground tank soon due to a work related move, and have been adapting this 1972 JCB 3CII rad. It's all brass construction, with copper fins. It has 39 flat section brass tubes times by 3 rows staggered (117 tubes total).

Best I can measure is the flat brass tubes are 2mm thick by 10mm wide by 430mm long . the rest of the rad can be seen in the image (which is a link to a bigger one). standard HDD and CD rom included for size indication.

I'm going to connect it up but just for fun any educated guessing / calculations on how well it might cope with my system? assume low airflow with probably around 220 - 250 watts total heat output underload at a guess

bigben2k · 07-30-2003, 01:51 PM

That's a pretty big rad: about 16" by 16" ?

With that heatload, I don't think you'll have any problems getting the water temp within a couple of degrees of ambient air.

How are you planning on putting a fan on it? An undervolted blower might serve you well, here...

BO(V)BZ · 07-30-2003, 03:23 PM

I'd just point a house fan at that on low power. I'd think that that would give you pretty good cooling without any annoying noise.

BladeRunner · 07-30-2003, 03:39 PM

Yeah its a monster, 20" x 20" x 2.5" total size. I was thinking that a 12v kenlow car fan would fit nice, but not sure if they would run undervolted so that it just literally ticked over, maybe I could butcher a small ceiling fan as they usually spin slow and quiet. Desk fan is an idea, but they aren't all that quiet at least the ones I have aren't.

Until I move I'll shove it outside in a cool place where there is some wind so it will probably be fine with no fan. 20 foot of 1/2 tube arrives tomorrow

so I'll attempt to get it rigged up

bigben2k · 07-30-2003, 03:46 PM

I was able to get a 12v car fan to run just fine at 5 volts. It'll even stratup at 5 volts.

Hellion_Prime · 07-30-2003, 03:48 PM

I found a 12" 24v fan designed for car rad's at a surplus site that seems to work reasonably well at 12v. Its a bit loud, however.

Linkage to the site is here .

BladeRunner · 07-30-2003, 04:02 PM

Yeah I guess the start-up is the main issue but that could easily be overcome by a timed relay giving it say 8v or something for 5 seconds on start-up. I was wondering if it would run like real real slow however?. I have a tec PSU that does 3v to 15v so maybe I'll try a car fan and see what happens, did you try that 24v one any lower than 12v btw?

Pakir · 07-30-2003, 04:22 PM

Oooh

That will probably do just fine...

Those barbs btw. look a bit tiny, are they 1/2" or 3/8"?

BladeRunner · 07-30-2003, 05:58 PM

The barb top right is actually larger that it appears at 5/8, The fitting top left near the CD is just a bleed point, (festo 10mm push fit), the bottom left barb with tube is much larger to match an Eheim 1060 pump suction barb. The Rad size is deceiving in images, look at the large image to see the HDD / CD to compare.

Nuson · 07-30-2003, 10:28 PM

Are you using that yet? Maybe if you let it lie horizontally, convection currents will be enough to cool your system without a fan or maybe I'm just crazy. (probably crazy

)

You might want a fan standing by if you try this though...

BladeRunner · 07-31-2003, 05:10 AM

Not connected it all up yet but initially it will be outside in a cool place, so the breeze maybe enough. It may work with convection as you say but convection, (similar to heatpipes), requires a significant difference between the water temp and ambient to start to work, so I gesss it would probably run about 5C higher temps overall compared to just the most minimal airflow.

Just done some barb reaming and these pics show the difference. Both are 5/8" with 3/8"bsp thread, (near as damn it the same as NPT), The original having a 10mm ID & the reamed a 13mm ID. This may not sound a significant increase but it virtually doubles the hole volume. I included a standard 1/2" barb in the image for size also.

pippin88 · 07-31-2003, 08:52 AM

How do you ream those out? On a lathe?

I drilled out a whole bunch of barbs to increase ID but it wasn't as straight and smooth as I'd like for a really nice waterblock.

BladeRunner · 07-31-2003, 10:10 AM

I don't have a lathe myself, but that would be the best way assuming it was good one that was well centred of course. I just used the mill, but a good pillar drill would work just as well for this. What I did was found a drill bit, (in this case 10mm), that fits pretty snugly into the current hole in the barb. You then put the barb in the vice and position it above the chuck that has the snug fitting drill bit in it. The barb should only be loosely mounted atm so you can get it to line up with the drill bit. It will take a bit of messing to get it in the right place. Once it will pass through the barb easily it will "self centre" the barb in the loose vice to the same plane as the drill bit, (the drill should not be running & don't force anything when doing this). When you have it pretty well centred the vice can be tightened, and double checked for position. I then just swapped to a 13mm bit without moving anything and ran through the barb. It gives a good true hole with only very slight run out.

If the pillar drill you are using is not to good, or you don't have a cutting lubrication /cooling fluid system you may find it better to go up in smaller stages, (10mm > 11mm > 12mm >13mm for instance.)

*Edit* the above assumes that the original hole is central, some of the 1/2" ones I have here atm are far from it

pippin88 · 07-31-2003, 05:17 PM

That's pretty much the process I used

Hellion_Prime · 08-01-2003, 11:24 AM

Hey blade runner, can you give us a bit of information on the rad you're using, so that maybe those of us on this side of the pond could procure one?

Thanks =)

BladeRunner · 08-01-2003, 12:00 PM

When possible I always try to use stuff I have about rather than buy extra things, and it was a spare I got with this digger ages ago:-

The digger as said is a 1972 JCB 3CII, but I'd guess the rad is more likely sourced from some more common tractor or truck from the period. You'll find most if not all modern vehicle rads are Aluminium / plastic so assuming you don't want alu in your system you'd want a rad from a, 1970's era or older car or truck. As you are in the states then I guess muscle car or trucks from the 70's would be a good place to look, you maybe able to pick up a new unit at reasonable cost that is all Brass/ Copper. There are whole industries making exact copy parts for muscle car restoration, or even better someone may still have old stock for a rare or unloved car/truck model. You'll just need to do some detective work to find the right thing I guess. I had to clean the one I used as it was very very mucky, (a brand new one would have been much easier).

I've been getting it ready for a while now as it involved steam cleaning initially then, I ran it for a month in a loop with petrol inside to clean it out, then another month with rad flush & detergents, then a month with water. It's like new now

I then had to solder on the fittings I wanted & make a slight repair which, was surprisingly easy with a small, (blue flame), hand blow lamp. A coat of black hamerite smooth and job done. It seems to be working nice with no fan or forced airflow its keeping the coolant at about 5C to 6C above ambient. I'll try it with a fan when I can find one that is right.

BladeRunner · 08-07-2003, 12:32 PM

Can't really call it a "zero fan zone" now with this lurking about

I included some small things in the images for size indication, like a CD rom and my PC

It's actually surprisingly quiet at 3v and starts up ok. not to bad at 5v both of which give a good airflow. At 12v it's a virtual tornado and I have a job hanging on to it with one hand

Is a Kenlowe 2000 16" btw

Pakir · 08-07-2003, 01:47 PM

hehe.. looking for something myself, hard to find any fans that size here thats cheap tho.

BladeRunner · 08-07-2003, 04:14 PM

That one was new, and not cheap as it's a kenlowe but it will be used on a car sometime in the future anyway. If you want a similar thing cheaper, then go and have a look around your local car dismantlers, just about all front wheel drive cars with transversely mounted engines have one or two electric cooling fans similar to the one pictured, the bigger the car the bigger the fans

07-30-2003, 01:40 PM	#1
BladeRunner Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chesterfield Uk Posts: 459	Calculate This! Ok so I've got to come off the underground tank soon due to a work related move, and have been adapting this 1972 JCB 3CII rad. It's all brass construction, with copper fins. It has 39 flat section brass tubes times by 3 rows staggered (117 tubes total). Best I can measure is the flat brass tubes are 2mm thick by 10mm wide by 430mm long . the rest of the rad can be seen in the image (which is a link to a bigger one). standard HDD and CD rom included for size indication. I'm going to connect it up but just for fun any educated guessing / calculations on how well it might cope with my system? assume low airflow with probably around 220 - 250 watts total heat output underload at a guess __________________ Zero Fan Zone Last edited by BladeRunner; 05-18-2004 at 01:53 PM.

07-30-2003, 01:51 PM	#2
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	That's a pretty big rad: about 16" by 16" ? With that heatload, I don't think you'll have any problems getting the water temp within a couple of degrees of ambient air. How are you planning on putting a fan on it? An undervolted blower might serve you well, here... __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

07-30-2003, 03:39 PM	#4
BladeRunner Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chesterfield Uk Posts: 459	Yeah its a monster, 20" x 20" x 2.5" total size. I was thinking that a 12v kenlow car fan would fit nice, but not sure if they would run undervolted so that it just literally ticked over, maybe I could butcher a small ceiling fan as they usually spin slow and quiet. Desk fan is an idea, but they aren't all that quiet at least the ones I have aren't. Until I move I'll shove it outside in a cool place where there is some wind so it will probably be fine with no fan. 20 foot of 1/2 tube arrives tomorrow so I'll attempt to get it rigged up __________________ Zero Fan Zone

07-30-2003, 03:46 PM	#5
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	I was able to get a 12v car fan to run just fine at 5 volts. It'll even stratup at 5 volts. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

07-30-2003, 03:48 PM	#6
Hellion_Prime Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Arlington, MA, US Posts: 90	I found a 12" 24v fan designed for car rad's at a surplus site that seems to work reasonably well at 12v. Its a bit loud, however. Linkage to the site is here . __________________ That which does not kill me had BETTER do enough damage to keep me from firing back!

07-30-2003, 03:23 PM	#3
BO(V)BZ Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: WI Posts: 53	I'd just point a house fan at that on low power. I'd think that that would give you pretty good cooling without any annoying noise.

07-30-2003, 04:02 PM	#7
BladeRunner Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chesterfield Uk Posts: 459	Yeah I guess the start-up is the main issue but that could easily be overcome by a timed relay giving it say 8v or something for 5 seconds on start-up. I was wondering if it would run like real real slow however?. I have a tec PSU that does 3v to 15v so maybe I'll try a car fan and see what happens, did you try that 24v one any lower than 12v btw? __________________ Zero Fan Zone

07-30-2003, 04:22 PM	#8
Pakir Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sweden Posts: 12	Oooh That will probably do just fine... Those barbs btw. look a bit tiny, are they 1/2" or 3/8"?

07-30-2003, 05:58 PM	#9
BladeRunner Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chesterfield Uk Posts: 459	The barb top right is actually larger that it appears at 5/8, The fitting top left near the CD is just a bleed point, (festo 10mm push fit), the bottom left barb with tube is much larger to match an Eheim 1060 pump suction barb. The Rad size is deceiving in images, look at the large image to see the HDD / CD to compare. __________________ Zero Fan Zone

07-30-2003, 10:28 PM	#10
Nuson Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: USA Posts: 41	Are you using that yet? Maybe if you let it lie horizontally, convection currents will be enough to cool your system without a fan or maybe I'm just crazy. (probably crazy) You might want a fan standing by if you try this though... __________________ Frag Out!

07-31-2003, 05:10 AM	#11
BladeRunner Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chesterfield Uk Posts: 459	Not connected it all up yet but initially it will be outside in a cool place, so the breeze maybe enough. It may work with convection as you say but convection, (similar to heatpipes), requires a significant difference between the water temp and ambient to start to work, so I gesss it would probably run about 5C higher temps overall compared to just the most minimal airflow. Just done some barb reaming and these pics show the difference. Both are 5/8" with 3/8"bsp thread, (near as damn it the same as NPT), The original having a 10mm ID & the reamed a 13mm ID. This may not sound a significant increase but it virtually doubles the hole volume. I included a standard 1/2" barb in the image for size also. __________________ Zero Fan Zone Last edited by BladeRunner; 05-18-2004 at 01:54 PM.

07-31-2003, 08:52 AM	#12
pippin88 Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 285	How do you ream those out? On a lathe? I drilled out a whole bunch of barbs to increase ID but it wasn't as straight and smooth as I'd like for a really nice waterblock.

07-31-2003, 10:10 AM	#13
BladeRunner Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chesterfield Uk Posts: 459	I don't have a lathe myself, but that would be the best way assuming it was good one that was well centred of course. I just used the mill, but a good pillar drill would work just as well for this. What I did was found a drill bit, (in this case 10mm), that fits pretty snugly into the current hole in the barb. You then put the barb in the vice and position it above the chuck that has the snug fitting drill bit in it. The barb should only be loosely mounted atm so you can get it to line up with the drill bit. It will take a bit of messing to get it in the right place. Once it will pass through the barb easily it will "self centre" the barb in the loose vice to the same plane as the drill bit, (the drill should not be running & don't force anything when doing this). When you have it pretty well centred the vice can be tightened, and double checked for position. I then just swapped to a 13mm bit without moving anything and ran through the barb. It gives a good true hole with only very slight run out. If the pillar drill you are using is not to good, or you don't have a cutting lubrication /cooling fluid system you may find it better to go up in smaller stages, (10mm > 11mm > 12mm >13mm for instance.) Edit the above assumes that the original hole is central, some of the 1/2" ones I have here atm are far from it __________________ Zero Fan Zone

07-31-2003, 05:17 PM	#14
pippin88 Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 285	That's pretty much the process I used

08-01-2003, 11:24 AM	#15
Hellion_Prime Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Arlington, MA, US Posts: 90	Hey blade runner, can you give us a bit of information on the rad you're using, so that maybe those of us on this side of the pond could procure one? Thanks =) __________________ That which does not kill me had BETTER do enough damage to keep me from firing back!

08-01-2003, 12:00 PM	#16
BladeRunner Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chesterfield Uk Posts: 459	When possible I always try to use stuff I have about rather than buy extra things, and it was a spare I got with this digger ages ago:- The digger as said is a 1972 JCB 3CII, but I'd guess the rad is more likely sourced from some more common tractor or truck from the period. You'll find most if not all modern vehicle rads are Aluminium / plastic so assuming you don't want alu in your system you'd want a rad from a, 1970's era or older car or truck. As you are in the states then I guess muscle car or trucks from the 70's would be a good place to look, you maybe able to pick up a new unit at reasonable cost that is all Brass/ Copper. There are whole industries making exact copy parts for muscle car restoration, or even better someone may still have old stock for a rare or unloved car/truck model. You'll just need to do some detective work to find the right thing I guess. I had to clean the one I used as it was very very mucky, (a brand new one would have been much easier). I've been getting it ready for a while now as it involved steam cleaning initially then, I ran it for a month in a loop with petrol inside to clean it out, then another month with rad flush & detergents, then a month with water. It's like new now I then had to solder on the fittings I wanted & make a slight repair which, was surprisingly easy with a small, (blue flame), hand blow lamp. A coat of black hamerite smooth and job done. It seems to be working nice with no fan or forced airflow its keeping the coolant at about 5C to 6C above ambient. I'll try it with a fan when I can find one that is right. __________________ Zero Fan Zone Last edited by BladeRunner; 05-18-2004 at 01:54 PM.

08-07-2003, 12:32 PM	#17
BladeRunner Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chesterfield Uk Posts: 459	Do you think I need to rename my web site? Can't really call it a "zero fan zone" now with this lurking about I included some small things in the images for size indication, like a CD rom and my PC It's actually surprisingly quiet at 3v and starts up ok. not to bad at 5v both of which give a good airflow. At 12v it's a virtual tornado and I have a job hanging on to it with one hand Is a Kenlowe 2000 16" btw __________________ Zero Fan Zone Last edited by BladeRunner; 05-18-2004 at 01:55 PM.

08-07-2003, 01:47 PM	#18
Pakir Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sweden Posts: 12	hehe.. looking for something myself, hard to find any fans that size here thats cheap tho.

08-07-2003, 04:14 PM	#19
BladeRunner Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chesterfield Uk Posts: 459	That one was new, and not cheap as it's a kenlowe but it will be used on a car sometime in the future anyway. If you want a similar thing cheaper, then go and have a look around your local car dismantlers, just about all front wheel drive cars with transversely mounted engines have one or two electric cooling fans similar to the one pictured, the bigger the car the bigger the fans __________________ Zero Fan Zone

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