C-Systems 12 VDC Pump review...

[RoboTech]

Interesting pump that was specifically designed for PC water-cooling. Not much bigger than a waterblock and supports different flow configurations.

C-Cystems CSP750 pump review

[jaydee]

Cool. Price? Is there a GPH Chart or did I miss it?

[BillA]

RoboTech

good to see serious testing
but
are you parroting the mfgrs spiel, or did you do some verification ?

50,000 hr MTBF ??

you serious ?
did you ask for a test report ? or supporting data in any form ?
do YOU know how a MTBF value is determined ?
did the mfgr do such ?

FYI, a 50,000 hr MTBF for a pump is a considerable accomplishment
on a stainless shaft ? - what a joke

RoboTech
now I must ask if you have any experience with small aquarium pumps ?
something is missing

[RoboTech]

Yes, there are several tables and graphs of various pressure and flow measurements. An yes, the pricing was stated as well ($35.99 single, $69.99 double).

No, I certainly have no way of substantiating the MTBF claims. I verified what I could measure and reported such: head, flow, PQ curves, EMI, electrical noise, aesthetics, etc.

OK Bill, what's missing...

[BillA]

for starters, a perspective on pumps perhaps

as you probably know, Swiftech initially sold (introduced to WCing in fact) Eheim pumps, then Siccie, now the 'unidentified mfgr' pump; so we have a pretty fair understanding of how pumps fail, and how long it takes, blah blah

there is a distribution involved, but 'better' products will begin failing later than 'lesser' pumps; but they will all fail eventually (though some will outlive us)

in addition to the above experience, I have an ongoing test program to identify possible new products
- I can assure you that new products have a higher failure rate simply due to the time required to debug a process, establish process controls based on the process characteristics as they become known, and setup an effective QC system to monitor the process
- I have spoken to many pump mfgrs about a 50,000 hr MTBF, and we have a laugh and then discuss the difficulties

do you know of any aquarium pump with a 50,000 hr MTBF ?
do you know of any 'industrial' pump (in the WCing size range) with a 50,000 hr MTBF ?
so did it not occur to you that: 1) this pump is VERY special - if so, why ?
or 2) this claim is bogus ?

(as a reviewer I suggest initial skepticism always)
I suggest you ask the mfgr for the data to support the 50,000 hr MTBF assertion
-> because if they do not have such they can have legal difficulties (in the US)

we await your adding the missing piece

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by RoboTech

Yes, there are several tables and graphs of various pressure and flow measurements. An yes, the pricing was stated as well ($35.99 single, $69.99 double).

Doh, my bad. I missed the last several pages. For whatever reason (head up my ass) I read the first couple pages and thought that was it.

[pHaestus]

Assuming the MTBF isnt off by an order of magnitude though this DOES look like a pretty good pump for the oddballs cooling in mATX/SFF cases...

[BillA]

if that MTBF was real I'd buy them by the thousands ! (and I do mean thousands)
I have a app just waiting, nice size/performance/cost - assuming OEM pricing
but got to be based on more than a salesman's statement or brochure

[Cathar]

I'm puzzled though. How come on paper and in synthetic tests, the pumps appear to push more flow than the Eheim 1048, yet when put onto an actual cooling loop they're struggling to push as much flow, even in series of parallel than the Eheim 1048? Did I miss something? Do the pumps have a bizzare PQ curve or something?

I would never buy an aluminium pump though - even if it was anodized - that's just me. All that swirling motion with the impeller means that any grit particles of any kind get flung with the most force when inside a pump, and it will eventually wear away the anodising. May be able to get away with it if Type 3 hard anodising was used (not colored).

[HAL-9000]

Originally Posted by unregistered

for starters, a perspective on pumps perhaps

as you probably know, Swiftech initially sold (introduced to WCing in fact) Eheim pumps, then Siccie, now the 'unidentified mfgr' pump; so we have a pretty fair understanding of how pumps fail, and how long it takes, blah blah

there is a distribution involved, but 'better' products will begin failing later than 'lesser' pumps; but they will all fail eventually (though some will outlive us)

in addition to the above experience, I have an ongoing test program to identify possible new products
- I can assure you that new products have a higher failure rate simply due to the time required to debug a process, establish process controls based on the process characteristics as they become known, and setup an effective QC system to monitor the process
- I have spoken to many pump mfgrs about a 50,000 hr MTBF, and we have a laugh and then discuss the difficulties

do you know of any aquarium pump with a 50,000 hr MTBF ?
do you know of any 'industrial' pump (in the WCing size range) with a 50,000 hr MTBF ?
so did it not occur to you that: 1) this pump is VERY special - if so, why ?
or 2) this claim is bogus ?

(as a reviewer I suggest initial skepticism always)
I suggest you ask the mfgr for the data to support the 50,000 hr MTBF assertion
-> because if they do not have such they can have legal difficulties (in the US)

we await your adding the missing piece

A very nice pump system I think. Small, modular, versatile, and powerful. Claiming a MTBF of 50000 hours I think is kind of strange. Thats like five and a half years of constant operation, obviously they didn't run one that long. However it looks like Robotech did an exceptionally objective and analytical test series on the pump system, and the specs are impressive, and I will believe Robotech on his testing. Looks solid to me.

I just might try me a pair of these pumps if the good word holds out on them over the next couple of weeks. Very nice! Perhaps Swiftech needs to start carrying them? It would be a great pump for a CPU-only or GPU-only cooling kit, especially with high impingement blocks it seems. In single units I bet the block would be a good placement in the Coolermaster/Thermaltake Aquarius out-of-the-box systems, so tiny it seems ideal for such apps. I bet a Cascade would really sing with a pair of those things in series. But we will have to wait and see I imagine, almost seems to good to be true.

[RoboTech]

Cathar,

For free flow conditions, I believe the E-1048 is designed to produce more flow but with less head than the CSP750.
E-1048 => 158 GPH free flow, 2.2 PSI max head
CSP750 => 120 GPH free flow, 2.7 PSI max head

With little flow resistance the Eheim will out deliver the C-Systems pump in GPH. This was demonstrated in the Pump Flow vs. Tubing Length graph. The E-1048 had a higher flow rate than either the single CSP750 or duallys in series.

However when the system backpressure increases, the CSP750 eventually out delivers the Eheim 1048 as shown in the System Flow Tests (BIE, Maze3, etc.). Even though these are pretty free flowing components, they still generated enough total system back pressure to allow the single CSP750 to almost catch up with the Eheim and with two of them in series or parallel exceeded the Eheims total flow.

Yes, aluminum is always a concern but corrosion can be easily managed with additives and errosion... well time will tell. Aluminum automotive water pumps certainly seem to be able to withstand a lot of wear and tear and they operate at much higher temperatures and flow rates than PC pumps, frequently with a lot of particulate sludge in the coolant banging away on the aluminum walls...

[Hotseat]

Hello all,
My name is Dan Neault, and I am the president of AVT International and C-systems.

I REALLY did not want to post here, but I have respect for Lee, and he asked I should say something.

First off, I do not want to get in a p*ssing contest, as a professional engineer, I beleive people should always respect other people work.

In saying that, I feel the swiftech pump is a damn nice unit, as are many other pumps on the market.

The 50,000 hr rating on our spec sheet, refer's to the motor, just as indicated. I as an engineer have no dout. The pump it self is not rated for 50,000 hours.

I can honestly tell you this, we have been using these units, in a different case, on our industrial systems, and they have gone 3 years running 24 / 7. This is the longest any of our customers have gone without a complete system overhaul, do to upgrades, not failed components. Note we use distilled water / methonal in our industrial units.

This is the best "real world" data I can offer

We offer a 1 year warrenty, and the only other offer I can make towards peoples concerns, is that I'm a person that cares about his work.

Note, this is likely the only time I will post in the forum, sorry but I have nothing but bad experiences with forums.

Thank you for your time,
Dan

[BillA]

very direct and candid answer
Thank you for responding Dan Neault

do feel free, and welcome, to visit this forum; and post as you feel appropriate

and I clearly wish to withdraw my severe criticism of AVT International and C-systems' MTBF statement. A sufficient basis certainly exists. Bill Adams

[Hotseat]

Thank you Bill, perhaps I will "stick around"

But here is my experience, I was in the video game industry for many years (created "warbirds" series of online game products), and there people are hired (called "trolls") to sit in forums putting down your work.

Was very hard to deal with, and one of the reasons I left the industry. Being an honest person, just couldn't except it

I do remember a time when forums where very usefull and constructive, would like to see those times again, had much enjoyment and professional developement from that time.

[BillA]

this is a forum with some very qualified, lucid, and even articulate individuals
those were the good points
and then there are the intemperate, of which I am an example

I have found stimulus here and annoyance, but its an ok place
there are no trolls here

I'll contact you Monday

[Kbofwy]

I've been looking all over for such a compact, low wattage, DC pump to use in my system. I had given up and was going to construct a pump built around a canibalized 120mm fan motor, but now this pump shows up and fills the void I think existed in the market. I'd like to thank Mr. Neault for such an elegantly designed pump.

Are there going to be replacement parts available for this pump (i.e. shaft+seal kit?)

I also think the fear of aluminum in water systems is highly overstated. We have unanodized bare aluminum in our irrigation equipment that have been in use for over 30 years. The only time we ever have corrosion happen is when steel comes in contact with the aluminum for a period of time. Otherwise, there isn't any problems with it at all. I also mill my waterblocks out of 6061 and don't bother to anodize them.

[mikehotel]

Bill, Any idea when you are going to have them back in stock?

[BillA]

Originally Posted by mikehotel

Bill, Any idea when you are going to have them back in stock?

the thread title is: C-Systems 12 VDC Pump review...

perhaps a different Bill

[Hotseat]

Mike, have 10 left.
Sorry we had to turn order page off, sold 200+ in 5 hours, had no idea how many were left.

But after the dust settled, and we count all the sales and the dealer request, we turned order page back on for a bit.

Yes, we will offer a kit, if needed 1-2 years from now.
But given the low price of the units, will likely not be to popular.

I mean it's $10 just to ship anything these days, and the kit will be at least $10 (costs of drive components), would be like rebuilding your case fan

Should have 100-200 more in a week or too, likely to all go to dealers, by the requests.

Which is fine, we perfer being an OEM company.

Later guys

[8-Ball]

Dan,

Much respect for your honest comments based on the questions raised in the thread thus far.

I understand your issues with forums, but it is always nice to have a representative of companies offering products to the watercooling community around to answer the odd queries and such.

The attitude you have showed thus far can only be good for your business reputation, and I look forward to seeing more of your products.

Oh, and welcome to the forums

8-ball

[8-Ball]

Originally Posted by Kbofwy

I also think the fear of aluminum in water systems is highly overstated. We have unanodized bare aluminum in our irrigation equipment that have been in use for over 30 years. The only time we ever have corrosion happen is when steel comes in contact with the aluminum for a period of time. Otherwise, there isn't any problems with it at all. I also mill my waterblocks out of 6061 and don't bother to anodize them.

Aluminium is fine on it's own, the issue arises when dissimilar metals are used for various components in the loop. Since almost all rads are copper/brass, as are most water blocks, you can see that problems with galvanic corrosion can and do crop up.

Although you probably know all of this.

8-ball

[Hotseat]

Aluminum can be a b*tch, you can get galvanic corrosion across different alloys and even same type. The copper content is not controled very well.

Over the years, have had many runs of parts come back from anodizing "yellow", same alloy, same molds, was just bad copper control on material suppliers part.

Had over $10,000 worth of "bad" aluminum once, still trying to get money back on that one

But, anodizing takes care of 90% of the issues. Even very short anodizing period will have a damatic effect on corrosion.

Many automotive parts only see a 3-5 minute bath these days.... we at the S.A.E found that is all that is needed with right alloys.

BTW What are you guys doing to protect the copper in all those blocks people make ?
Not that copper oxide doesn't conduct heat, just wondering if you do anything.

Later,
Dan

[HAL-9000]

Originally Posted by Hotseat

Mike, have 10 left.
Sorry we had to turn order page off, sold 200+ in 5 hours, had no idea how many were left.

But after the dust settled, and we count all the sales and the dealer request, we turned order page back on for a bit.

Yes, we will offer a kit, if needed 1-2 years from now.
But given the low price of the units, will likely not be to popular.

I mean it's $10 just to ship anything these days, and the kit will be at least $10 (costs of drive components), would be like rebuilding your case fan

Should have 100-200 more in a week or too, likely to all go to dealers, by the requests.

Which is fine, we perfer being an OEM company.

Later guys

Your pumps seem impressive. And you seem like a pretty honest guy, who really values good engineering. I think you've sold two pumps to me. Thanks!

[8-Ball]

Originally Posted by Hotseat

BTW What are you guys doing to protect the copper in all those blocks people make ?
Not that copper oxide doesn't conduct heat, just wondering if you do anything.

Nothing that I know of to the copper itself. Most tend to avoid mixing metals and using corrosion inhibitors mixed into the coolant.

8-ball

[8-Ball]

Also, with respect to the anodizing, a lot of water block manufacturers using anodized Al tops seem to be moving over to plastic barbs.

A lot of the horror stories going around about cooling system failure due to galvanic corrosion of the aluminium are due to scratching of the anodized surface of neglecting to head manufacturer advice about the use of corrosion inhibitors.

8-ball