Why doesn't TC-4 have a copper top?

[Mark Larson]

I know so many people who are wary of buying a TC-4 because the only choices are poly top, which is prone to cracking, and aluminum top, which is prone to corrosion, even though it is anodised.

We know the original TC-4 had a copper top, so why did Dtek ditch it?

I definitely think they're losing sales to the Maze3 because of this.

[8-Ball]

A good quality hard anodize should protect from galvanic corrosion.

I think people would fit into 2 categories.

1. Don't know anything - go for looks, the black anodized aluminium and the poly top look great.
2. Those who do know stuff - should know that anodizing should prevent galvanic corrosion, and that polycarbonate, if that's what they use is much MUCH tougher than acrylic, hence less likely to crack.

I personally don't think they're missing out on much.

8-ball

[Mark Larson]

You forgot the "Little knowledge is a dangerous thing" category who're vaguely aware of the dangers but do know/think that there are risks.

I fit into this category, but i'm working to gain more knowledge

[Blackeagle]

Hi Mark,

As 8-ball posted polycarb is stronger than acrylic, in fact it is 30X stronger in just it's standard formulations (300X stronger than reguler glass). Advanced ploycarbonate blends for security uses can nearly double that (bullet proof glass is made of this type of blend). Sad fact is that block makers used the lower costing types of plexi due to the much lower cost. Polycarbonate is one of the more expensive types of plexi.

[theetruscan]

There are multiple kinds of anodizing.

I'm paraphrasing from one of Cathar's posts on OCAU, ah hell, I'll just go grab it.

"A minor introduction as to what that means can be found here:

http://www.hard-anodising.co.uk/tap.asp

Type II Anodising is of middling quality on the anodising scale. Type I is cosmetic, and Type III is hard anodising.

Type II Anodising offers substantial corrosion resistance (not immunity). This is the type of anodising that both Swiftech and DTek Customs use on their aluminium topped blocks.

Class 2 Anodising for corrosion protection offers a coat up to 30 microns thick, which is nice (better than the 3-10 microns of Class 1).

If done properly, then it should offer a few years of corrosion protection in harsh conditions, longer if corrosion inhibitors are used. It should also be noted that it is commonly accepted in the industry that mixing of Copper/Aluminium is still one of the worst combinations for corrosion prevention, so it is critical that the anodizing process is performed properly, and the anodising workshop should have an industry certification demonstrating their compliance with standards."

Now, I wonder about one thing in this, DTek states their block is Hard anodised, which would imply type III, not type II as he states, I imagine that either Hard anodising is imprecisely defined, and the block is type II anodised, or it is type III. Dunno though, either way it's an informative post and link. Thanks Cathar, sorry about copy/pasting your post.

[Mark Larson]

I just sent a link to this thread to Dtek... let's see what they have to say.

[redleader]

I don't get the Al top either. Its not like soldering a piece of copper is difficult or expensive.

[8-Ball]

As I have said, it looks pretty, which is still one of the main factors when buying waterblocks, for a large majority of people.

8-ball

[theetruscan]

But looks really don't matter in this case. A copper top would add maybe $5-10 to the block, and copper can be black nickel plated. For something as simple as the D-Tek top, it would probably add like $3.00, so they probably just think the anodizing is adequate.

[mfpmax]

The block is heavy as it is, a copper top will make it a smidge heavier.

AND IT LOOKS DAMN COOL!

[MadDogMe]

The thickness needed for threading in barbs would make the block very heavy if Cu was used, check out the wieght of a 6mm thick peice of Cu, a 'smidge' it ain't!!...
Lexan is very expensive, £150 for a 4'x8' sheet in the UK(and thats 5mm not the 9mm that's needed for threading!), flat ALu bar is the cheapest option, which is why it's used...

[Mark Larson]

Here's Dtek's reply...

HI Mark,

The Type II anodizing we use is extremely corrosion resistant. You run into
problems when the anodizing is of bad quality and allows the aluminum to
show through weather it be scratches, thin areas, etc.. The benefits are it
is lighter, easier to machine, looks much better and easier to offer a color
variety. I do not think we are losing sales to the aluminum top as a matter
of fact they increased from when we had the soldered copper top. There is
many misconceptions in this industry and one of them is the use of treated
aluminum. If quality is addressed with the anodizing then the aluminum is
every bit as durable as copper. Thanks for your concern and information to
this subject.


Thanks,
Danny
www.dtekcustoms.com
Ph 949-829-0067
Fax 949-829-0078

So they use Type II anodizing...

[BillA]

Danny is an ok fellow, but his statement is simply untrue

anodizing is a coating, over a material which is prone to corrosion
-> no coating is perfect, or indefinitely durable
this is why there are ASTM testing procedures to 'quantify' corrosion susceptibility and rate

there is nothing that Dtek or any mfgr can do that will make aluminum as corrosion resistant as copper, particularly when 'mated' to a copper component

marketingspeak, not good - not accurate or correct

[Sproket]

I just think like this:
Why take the risk of a Type II alum. top block when you can just get a solid copper like the White Water. I dont care about looks. I just want the lowest temps offered by water.
I think the White Water will give me what I want.

i just Cant purchase it right now. I will wait a couple of weeks and see if the Cather block becomes available.

BTW I think the White Water looks very cool also.
Best I have seen!

[theetruscan]

BillA pointed out that this post was misinformative (is that even a word) and spectacularly stupid. Unfortunately, as usual, he was right. Sorry to anyone who read it.

[bigben2k]

Originally posted by unregistered
Danny is an ok fellow, but his statement is simply untrue

anodizing is a coating, over a material which is prone to corrosion
-> no coating is perfect, or indefinitely durable
this is why there are ASTM testing procedures to 'quantify' corrosion susceptibility and rate

there is nothing that Dtek or any mfgr can do that will make aluminum as corrosion resistant as copper, particularly when 'mated' to a copper component

marketingspeak, not good - not accurate or correct

I didn't see anything in Danny's statement that led to believe that the coating is "perfect", nor "infinitely durable". As theetruscan stated, it's a question of quality, never mind the spec (who follows specs anyways?)


Sproket: copper is much harder to mill than Alu.

[BillA]

Ben
you are quite consistent
you have a special translation for this ?
"If quality is addressed with the anodizing then the aluminum is every bit as durable as copper."

my post is correct as written

theetruscan
got that all wrong
anodizing is a chemical treatment that creates an oxide
no ceramics
and the Silverprop was nickel plated

google, its there - and you are incorrect

have either of you ever done corrosion testing ?

[theetruscan]

Ugh, well, yeah, I read about it and I did get it all wrong. Deleted the stupid post. I asked someone who should have known better, and was too lazy to research it myself. Thanks for straightening me out there BillA.

I read a bit on this, but everything I could find was marketing blather of some form or another.

I have two questions for you, and I am happy to read something about it if you know where to point me.

1. The layer of oxide is cited as being porous which allows dying, but is it porous enough to lead to eventual galvanic corrosion with type II anodizing, or is this a stupid misinterpretation?

2. Nickel plating was cited as a "sacrificial coating" in some of the sources I could find. Does this in any way imply that it will corrode over time, or does sacrificial coating imply that it is altered in some way then stable, and prevents the underlying material from being altered?


Also, a quote that may be relevant to the silverprop issue from www.bauertesting.com

'A poorly done coating can be worse than no coating at all. When an otherwise inert coating has significant cracks or pores, localized corrosion or pitting will be greatly accelerated by direct chemical attack of the exposed substrate, the galvanic potential between the layers, galvanic potential between nearby materials, concentration-cell effect, and stresses at the interface. This phenomena can be seen on an anodized, or nickel plated aluminum part that was not prepared properly. "

This one was simple enough as to probably be misleading, but fortunately simple enough for my feeble mind to comprehend.

I am a very confused mathematics type, hardware stuff makes my head spin, but I'm trying to learn. Thanks.

[BillA]

no, you homed right in on it

a 'defect' in the coating (even if only relatively speaking) WILL concentrate the effect there

also anodizing into and around corners is prone to problems

no idea what that nickel plating was about, ???
ate out the brass barbs ?
dezincification ?
beats me how that happened, but it sure did

[Fixittt]

ok, I know I have dropped out of the scene over the past few months, been trying to get my head on straight, but I lurk from time to time, and boy am I disapointed with some of the CRAP that I have read.

but this one I am going to chime in on. First of all.... Bill is right, if you bolt any kind of aluminum to copper, you run the risk of corrosion. Keep that in mind.

now for my rant, why do you guys always look at either one end of the spectrum or the other...... and not in the middle? For 1, what is the life expectency (In terms of usage) for a waterblock? How many people on this forum have a maze 2 and are still running it? WE are talking 2 years maybe........... and how many people are running tap water? And how many people here never change out there coolant? I am probably running the oldest waterblock here. I have one of the very first spir@ls with the black tops. It has been setup and running for almost 2 years. Almost. And I can say that I am very lazy when it comes to changing out coolant. Hell, I bet its a year old. My hoses are tinted pink from the water wetter (Cheap hoses) but it runs flawlesly. Never had a problem, and I am willing to bet $500 that if i took it apart RIGHT now there would be no corrosion. Also, all this talk of mixed metals, How may people here are using copper hose barbs? Ohh im sure some have some sort of copper fittings, but most im willing to wager have brass fittings.

You guys seemed to have blinders on. Ohh its got an anadised top, well that cant be good. BS, its a great alternative to copper. And it keeps the price down for the customer.

besides that is what its all about any way, the customer.

So stop throwing all the high tech data around that will scare some of the newer members, and if your going to state the FACTS and there is no argument that it is a fact, you also need to state that if the right measures are taken, corrosion probably wont start for a few years. By that time, the block will more then likley be shelved for another.
All the info is needed when posting, not a prtion of it. Lets start trying to help people be more aware of descisions, rather then trying to sway them altogether.


And I can say that Dannys statment is not all that incorrect. When used as directed, anadized alluminum is pretty much as durable as copper. (With brass fittings and all the other crap in the cooling loop) and yes, anadizing even type II is alot more corrosion resistant then bare aluminum. And as for being just as durable, take a hammer to a peice of copper and a peice of aluminum. Tell me if aluminum isnt as duarable as copper.

If it wasnt think swiftech would be using it as well?

[MadDogMe]

I think most people look to the extreme ends because they're budding perfectionists ...

About the corrosion, most people have seen various pics of the results of corrosion and think to themselves 'if it can happen, it will!' then go to extreme lenghts to prevent it. I agree it's not a biggie as is made out, but it's not ignorable either, it's a potential that should'nt be ignored, there is'nt enough 'Hard data' so being prepared makes sense...

And I think Swiftech would use tin foil if they could get away with it ...

[BillA]

Fixittt

in part my error for not adding the 'standard' comment about the necessity for ALWAYS using a corrosion inhibitor when aluminum is in the system
(I have several Commercial wb reviews to be posted and saying always the same thing, I neglected to add such in the initial post here)

yes, your hoses are pink - so yes, it is doubtful you will see any corrosion
BUT
if you read around you will encounter no shortage of tales of WCing newcomers who did not
AND
if no corrosion inhibitor is used you WILL see corrosion

should I choose to do so, I can post many images of anodized parts showing corrosion, some after only days exposure to tap water
but what is the point ?
with corrosion inhibitor the material is serviceable

a good wb is a good wb, and should provide years of service
you will not find me saying that 'aluminum is as good as copper' because it is not
wtf does a hammer have to do with anything ?

YOU do not understand about what the brass barb comment was in reference to
go to OCAU, read up on the Silverprop corrosion spectaculars, eat your mis-informed words

MDE
you will see no hard data for such because it is contrary to fact

[Fixittt]

Maddog,

I would have almost bought that we are trying to be perfectionists, that was until I seen this post. granted the blocks look good. But what is the #1 rule about putting hoses filled with water in your computer? This is probably the most ignored rule in the industry. And I am sure that more then 50% forget them.

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=6027


Bill, all I am asking, instead of always being so negative, state "BOTH" sides of the facts. yes, al and Cu together is never good if you must run tap water. but it is never ever recomended to run straight tap water. But with the right setup, there is nothing wrong with Cu and anadized Al in a system.

The hammer comment was to state that cu and al are as durable as each under certain conditions. More of a smart ass comment. Gotta love me.

Peace

BTW Bill, Keep up the good work.

edit: the brass barbs was in reference to mixd metals in the cooling loop.

[BillA]

Fixittt

go to OCAU and LOOK at the brass barbs
you will be quite impressed

[WinFlex]

Ok... little lesson in materials science here... the whole rumor hype about polycarbonate tops cracking is BS... prolycarb, also known as Lexan is flexible and will not crack...
There is just a bunch of stupid retards out there who confuse plexiglass (which is relatively brittle) with polycarb (lexan)... they bolt it on their blocks using fine thread screws, compress the living crap out of it and wonder why it cracks... I myself have built numerous blocks with 1/2 inch thick antistatic lexan tops and have never even seen one crack...
Also, why would a block crack during operation? The only time this would happen is when it is exposed to excessive stresses, during assembly and mounting... and unless you really pull on your hoses that are connected to the block, a reasonably thick polycarbonate top will never fail.
I have used COSMOS stress analysis on my block top, simulating both plexiglass and lexan... the result was the the lexan is about 10 times more durable because of its more favorable modulus of elasticity and yield strength... why do i know all this crap? I'm a mechanical engineer

So, If you get a clear top block, make sure it's not plexi but lexan... end of story