WhiteWater found a home

[sn_85]

http://www.liquidninjas.com/bbs/show...0&pagenumber=1

ok, ignore the first page but about 3/4 down the second page things get interesting. i dont know if you guys knew or not but just sharing new news to me. can someone here confirm it?

time to save up and patiently wait

[Talik]

Wow, those kids have some serious issues getting along. D-Tek mass producing the LRWW is great news, though. Does anyone know the layout of the inside of one of the LRWW's?

[bigben2k]

LRWW: 8 channels, 1.0 mm wide, 1.0 mm wide fins that extend at least 2mm past the core. Less than 1.0 mm baseplate. Nozzling plate is approx. 3mm wide.

Edit: channels are 4mm deep.

[Deviant]

Yep. Just got confirmation on D-Tek producing LRWW. Can't wait to start selling it....

[BrianH]

Can't wait for you to start selling it?

How well would the WWR work in a chilled system?

[8-Ball]

Any block will work as efficiently, whatever the coolant temp, provided all of the other factors are the same.

For a given flow rate, the source will be x degrees over the coolant temperature. So, coolant temp + x.

As you can see, using chilled water will just lower the source temp by the same amount.

Hope that makes sense.

8-ball

[BillA]

Originally posted by 8-Ball
Any block will work as efficiently, whatever the coolant temp, provided all of the other factors are the same.

For a given flow rate, the source will be x degrees over the coolant temperature. So, coolant temp + x.

As you can see, using chilled water will just lower the source temp by the same amount.

Hope that makes sense.

8-ball

WRONG

fancy internal furniture is far less useful with higher viscosity coolant
and it imposes an additional burden on the already strained pump

go the other direction

[pHaestus]

So, using chilled water, one would theoretically hit a temp below which a modified MCW462-UH would be a better performer than whitewater? It would certainly be easy enough to tune the inlet diameter, and it should have a lower flow restriction with a large outlet bard I would think.

Or is a thinner bp than the stock 462's also needed for such an application?

[BillA]

not a whole bunch of data on chilled coolant wbs
my tests have gone to 5°C only, with an 'open' wb
what I did see was a marked increase in flow resistance
(and note that my pump is big enough to ignore - not normally the case)

as the 'theory' would lead one to believe, fin sizing, spacing, etc. would necessarily be rather different
- but as the dT goes up, the whole task becomes easier

perhaps Les will run some bp thickness calcs for us ?
(my thought is for greater thickness)

chilled water is the future (for those not already there)

[Since87]

Originally posted by 8-Ball
Any block will work as efficiently, whatever the coolant temp, provided all of the other factors are the same.

And, even if you miraculously keep the same heat capacity and viscosity with chilled coolant, the amount of heat conducted through the waterblock baseplate will increase.

A substantial portion of the CPU's heat leaves the die through the CPU pins in a 'standard' watercooling setup.

The lower you get the die temperature, the higher the amount of heat conducted through the waterblock.

[8-Ball]

Ok, so I was a bit off the mark with that one.

Please disregard my last post. It's been a long day. I've got finals coming up this summer and I've been hitting the library first thing every morning. Kind of gets to you after a while.

Sorry for any confusion caused

8-ball

[Blackeagle]

So couldn't you lower the viscosity level by adding alcohol? Or blending in wiper fluid, which is a differant way of adding the alcohol.

Trick would be in hitting the right balance so as to keep as much water as possible to maintain the higher effectiveness of water vs. alcohol wouldn't it?

[jaydee]

Originally posted by sn_85
http://www.liquidninjas.com/bbs/show...0&pagenumber=1

ok, ignore the first page but about 3/4 down the second page things get interesting. i dont know if you guys knew or not but just sharing new news to me. can someone here confirm it?

time to save up and patiently wait

Deviantbox, I was going to reply last night...but thought I was a bit too angry at you for no reason and should cool down...but I dunno man...youre seriously asking for something...

All I have to say is look at the way Bill adams does his testing (http://overclockers.com/tips263/index02.asp)...he uses a cpu die simulator.

This is not that good of an idea because it puts the mounted waterblock parallel to the ground. This enables the weight of the WB to push itself into the cpu die simulator. This does not stress the socket mounting system because it is not mounted vertically.

Anyways bill adams says that the cpu die simulator testing is the "purest" measure of heatsink performance...and he himself puts "purest" in quotes...why? because it really does take into account the fact that the test is artificial and not a real world test.

which brings me to my real reason for writing this, I read all of Bill Adams' stuff on overclockers.com. It was mostly his watercooling section in overclockers.com that made me seriously consider watercooling. But I have to say one thing, his tests are performed under artificial situations and not in a real world testing situation.

THe people at LN being watercooling product enthusiasts, love the glut of products that are coming to market. we just want to help people with our experiences because we aren't testing WBs for a few days to write up a review of it....we buy it with our hard earned money and use it for months, years.

I used to drop bill adams' name like he was the coolest shit...but the thing is he is just one person....what good is one person's view of a product under artificial conditions if a whole group of people on a forum are getting poor results from a product under real world conditions?

Deviantbox, I am not quite sure what the hell you are so angry about...esp since its tech junkies like us who are keeping business like yours afloat. But thanks for making me see how naive I was, from now on I will remember how views expressed in forums by real users are more important than one or two reviews online.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I about threw my back out reading the comment in the green not to mention the rest. These type of people are a con artists dream! No wonder half assed companies make a good chunck of change and stay in business!

GLad Dtek Is making the WW. Wonder how much they will cost.

[Since87]

Originally posted by Blackeagle
So couldn't you lower the viscosity level by adding alcohol? Or blending in wiper fluid, which is a differant way of adding the alcohol.

Trick would be in hitting the right balance so as to keep as much water as possible to maintain the higher effectiveness of water vs. alcohol wouldn't it?

Yes, as you add alcohol the viscosity and heat capacity both go down. Finding the optimal mix for the system would likely require some experimentation.

[Cathar]

Mainly to Bill.

Can't argue that viscosity increases, but as pointed out in private emails, the size of the increase is probably important.

The White Water's flow resistance using 25C water already allows the block when installed in a full system to offer a level of back-pressure that sits squarely in the middle of most pump's duty points which is true for Eheim 1046, 1048, Iwaki MD20-RZ, Iwaki MD30-RZ. For the Eheim 1250 the block+heater-core pushes back against pump at about 80% of the pump's peak head, which is a little high, but still on the edge of where the pump could be stated to still be running efficiently.

I personally would've thought that the White Water would perhaps fare better as viscosity is increased. Just some hand-waving hypothesis here, so definitely just discussing, not stating anything.

The jet impingement pretty much forces all of the coolant to be closest to the heat, chilling the walls as it goes down. No matter what, the coolant is close to the heat, and even if jet impingement loses effectiveness, the coolant is still affecting the fin walls.

My feeling is that with an open chambered design like the MCW-462, that here the "thick" flow of jet impingement will suffer. As viscosity is increased, less of the coolant is likely to reach the base-plate, and instead will move out into the open chamber where it touches nothing important for cooling.

Thinking here of pouring honey from a jar into a glass vs pouring water. Pouring honey results in nothing reaching the bottom of the glass it just stacks on top, but pouring water has the flow hitting the bottom of the glass with ease. Now I know we're not pouring honey, but this just serves to highlight where I'm going with this on a reduced, (but perhaps still significant?) scale?

Are my thoughts somewhat on the right track?

Is the increased viscosity causing a lower flow rate (how much lower? 10%? 20%) offset by the losses that an open-chamber design will incur as less of the coolant reaches where it has to? What effect is the decreased flow rate having on the block's performance? How much effect is the "stacking" effect having on the open-chamber design, coupled with its decreased flow rate as well?

[Les]

Originally posted by unregistered
not a whole bunch of data on chilled coolant wbs
my tests have gone to 5°C only, with an 'open' wb
what I did see was a marked increase in flow resistance
(and note that my pump is big enough to ignore - not normally the case)

as the 'theory' would lead one to believe, fin sizing, spacing, etc. would necessarily be rather different
- but as the dT goes up, the whole task becomes easier

perhaps Les will run some bp thickness calcs for us ?
(my thought is for greater thickness)

chilled water is the future (for those not already there)

Ugh, help,dunno,but:
Found little influence(<10%) of temp on the "3 elements" I use to guess* Pressure drop.
Larger effect on Convection Coeff calculated with both Kryotherm and Flomerics Jet Impingement**
Some exploratory sums:



Perhaps no difference in the Temp response of the Swiftech462 and the WW
Yes, the lower Conv. Coeff. implies a thicker bp. - may haveanother look (Previously Predictions at 20c - http://<br /> <a href="http://www.j...Guess1.jpg</a> )


* "SF Pressure Drop 5.0" - http://www.software-factory.de/
** Kryotherm [ur]http://www.kryotherm.ru/soft.htm[/url]
Flomerics http://www.coolingzone.com/Content/D...as/fcalc10.htm

EDIT: Deleted repetition.

[BillA]

quite a few items that need clarification before this could progress:

what temp is the "chilled system" coolant actually at ?
what is the coolant ?
what is the actual flowrate ?

knowing none of these, we are just kinda knocking the idea around

I see chilled water systems as being of 2 types:
coolant above the dew point temp, and
coolant below the dew point

I'm thinking here we are referring to the latter, but still above freezing ?
(no real idea to what others were referring as was not explicitly stated)
my testing as I said did not go below 5°C



in the case of the WW, my speculation would be that there would be a greater stagnation area due to the increased viscosity
obviously such applies to all wbs, but again my speculation is that the closely spaced fins will exacerbate the effect

Les, thanks - let me digest

EDIT: jd
its comments like the one you quoted that make me want to write really technically rigorious articles
then the chuckle heads would not even bother to read them

[Les]

The simplest to model - Swiftech462(14.5mm ID Inlet,8mm bp) cooled by Water.





EDIT: Added WW graph.

[theetruscan]

Originally posted by unregistered
jd
its comments like the one you quoted that make me want to write really technically rigorious articles
then the chuckle heads would not even bother to read them

Oh come now BillA, surely testing without correcting for any other factors, at a single point, with one sample is far better than your method because . . . the block isn't sideways.

Kinda makes you wonder if these people failed out of high school science. Didn't even high school classes expect more rigorous testing than they claim is better than BillA's? Ah well, those ones will always outnumber everyone else. :shrug:

[Deviant]

Originally posted by jaydee116
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I about threw my back out reading the comment in the green not to mention the rest. These type of people are a con artists dream! No wonder half assed companies make a good chunck of change and stay in business!

GLad Dtek Is making the WW. Wonder how much they will cost.

Yeah I got in quite a nice little feud with them....lol....managed to piss almost everyone there by trying to protect people I respect here. I was even called an asshole Friendly forum

[BillA]

don't sweat it
but they linked to and quoted JoeC thinking it was me (reading challenged ?)
the best was their referring to overclockers pimping me
lol

Les
while the temp is undefined (but lets say above freezing), part of what I am alluding to is a decrease in actual flowrate due to the effects of viscosity on the pump and within the wb

how much ?
the wb can be inferred from the graph
but the pump is the really big question
I guess I could measure it, but why ?
- as in who would have any interest at all in such ?
anyone wanting to use chilled water is simply going to do it by trial and error

[Deviant]

Originally posted by unregistered
don't sweat it
but they linked to and quoted JoeC thinking it was me (reading challenged ?)
the best was their referring to overclockers pimping me
lol

lol...yeah I saw.

[Mark Larson]

That forum sucks. When you see mods/admins making attacks on new members then you know you don't want to read more of the site because all the threads will be full of tripe.

[Deviant]

Originally posted by Mark Larson
That forum sucks. When you see mods/admins making attacks on new members then you know you don't want to read more of the site because all the threads will be full of tripe.

Got that right Mark. I'm certainly not going there anymore. I've wasted enough time as it is there. Anyway, with their reactions, apart from a few nice people, I saw that they have abusive admins and lots of members on the verge of puberty.

I'll stay here. I prefer to hang out with intelligent people.

[BillA]

ahem
intelligence without education ain't squat
bite the bullet, get it done