Hey, ProCooling Wants your Input!

[Joe]

I just went and re-read the 3 year in review ProCooling article, and was looking at the forums. I really dig this site still. Its hardly a secret that I am getting more and more put off by how mainstream, and pointless much of the high end watercooling and even phase change stuff is becoming. The practicality of it all is starting to come into question in my mind. I am really trying to figure out what aspect of cooling I want to write about that I see still has a future. Now I don’t want to be a doom and gloom guy about cooling, but quite bluntly, Watercooling is loosing steam.

My Logic is this:
Reasons we Watercooled: To overclock more, or to make a machine more silent. Was largely do to the fact HSF's at the time were rather crappy, or simple. (some people did it simply to make the innards of their computer look "leet" also)

Reasons I see Watercooling as slowing down to a fizzle: CPU's come stock at 3Ghz now, performance in MOST machines isn’t an issue. Yes there are still the small niche of folks who are big on OC'n, and pushing to the edge. Now its being done as sport almost more than dire need of more clock power. When the Water Cooling thing started, people were just trying to hit 450 Mhz so that Windows would run smooth. But will people really spend 300$ on a high end water cooling setup, just to add 500Mhz - 1Ghz onto a 3Ghz CPU? Does windows really run slow at 3Ghz?

Maybe its just the fact that the Water cooling industry has spread itself so wide that now the fall back to the niche market where all this started 4 - 5 years ago, is seeming like a bigger move than it really is. One thing that is impressive is the technological advancements that the niche market has been making when it comes to water block and radiator designs. I have never seen the small hard core niche market advance this fast and work this hard to achieve higher advancements in water cooling. Water Block Design and Construction forum in the Pro/Forums

Really with Heat sink design and technology advancing, larger quieter fans being released, Air Cooling is rapidly (at least in my view) becoming again the best solution for most (semi mainstream) folks who may want some extra cooling and very quiet, and in a small space. Most watercooling setups I have seen recently are louder, and provide only marginal increases in cooling capability over the higher end air cooling solutions.

Overall I am in a sort of limbo state when it comes to the site/industry/politics of running a site/etc... I love the site, I love the readers and the community in the Chat and the Forums, and I do NOT want to leave that behind. So I am just trying to figure out what’s next... I want to make any move (ie: site topic, starting a second site, site direction, etc...) be as productive and advantageous to the readers as it would be to getting some fresh interest into the site from its staff and possibly get some new staff in the process.

What other topics (Technology/computer/hobby/geekdom) related would any of you guys like to see the site or a sister site address. I really want to re-invigorate the staff and the readers about the site, so I am looking for all the input I can get on this.

(one note of interest: the sites traffic has done nothing but go up in the last 6 months... quite funny, the less we do the faster the site grows it seems hehehe)

I am also looking for recommendations on topic or topic expansions in the forums. Like the Water block design forum, should there be more topics based on construction/design work? What do you guys want to see? I run this site for the readers, so you guys tell me what you want!

[Yo-DUH_87]

Joe: a while back you were talking about starting a sister site for hardware, and I would enjoy that, as long as the reviews were just as fair and unbiased as the reviews on this site are.

Yeah, everyone and their uncle has a hardware review site, but I find that a whole lot of them tell you "oh, yeah, it makes my computer run so much faster!!!" when they are reviewing a fan

Procooling reviews tell you

a. if the product works
b. how well it works
c. any potential problems/flaws you may have if you buy this product
d. if it is worth it to shell out that much $$$ for it.

While you may have a harder time getting hardware, as you refuse to be bribed, but that is better anyway, as you won't be wasting your time reviewing junk.

Just my $0.02

[bigben2k]

FWIW...

I think that what's really holding back ProCooling is the narrow topic of cooling.

Overclocking is more popular than any of the, dare I say it, abnormal cooling solutions we've proposed, beyond an HSF. I certainly wouldn't call it a dying art, seeing all the new commercial products that have come out, in the past month alone!

The "Waterblock Design" forum was an excellent idea: I'm surprised to see how popular it became, and so quickly!

The purpose of it all is also tightly related to the operation of a PC, which extends right into the OS (Operating system), and passing by all the hardware.

I for one would really like to see a Windows OS tweaking topic being introduced. There are literally thousands of modifications to an OS that one can apply, for various purposes. Once the cooling is in place, we all have to install an OS, and for some of us, we all know how complex it can become. I can't do that here, because there is no information whatsoever.

On the other hand, we're already delving into the hardware: motherboard/chipsets, HDD, VC, ... (in the forums, that is, usually under "Random Nonsense"). So maybe we could start there. It would be a good opportunity, if we posted reviews, to gain some major attention.

:shrug:

[Blackeagle]

Joe, I want you to know that I really like your site. I spend more time here than all other sites, on all topics, combined. I know I don't post as much as some, but don't consider myself qualified to do so on many of the topics.

I'd like to see a area, or branch site, for hardware. As Yo-DUH already said there are very few fully trust worthy hardware sites on the net. And hardware is one area more of the membership may be able to contribute to the content of the site, where they can't in cooling. I know I'd take a shot at writting some articles for you to look at. Just be warned that I've not written anything before and any articles I write will need a good edit job.

I don't fault BigBen's suggestion for OS tweaks as well, but doubt that topic could support a differant site on it's own. Perhaps it could be included as a forum area in a branch site or a added one here.

As for OC info I think the eXtreme systems site would be VERY hard to compete with. That site seems as honest and helpfull as this one is, just in a differant area of computing. So I see no gain to be had in that direction. I'll sure take part if you decide to add such a area, but wonder how well it would do.

It looks to me as if the biggest choice for you is do you have the time for setting up a brach site? Would it save you time to add these added features to this site? I'd see no problem with a expansion of this site, and I hope others would support it as well.

My .02 worth.

BE

[cybrsamurai]

Joe I just wanted you to know that I really appreciate the site and the work that everyone has put into it. I agree that a good hardware site could potentially gain a huge audience.
I was thinking that this forum has alot of technological talent and it would be a shame not to take advantage of it. If you were to have a couple main editors and allow the forum members (in good standing) to submit reviews of hardware products. Sort of a super user review site where people could trust that the people writing the reviews are pushing the products as much as they themselves would. Alot like the way this site is run but for hardware.

I will support the site or sister site in whatever direction you decide to take it.

[pHaestus]

What makes hardware sites go?

Free hardware

What makes hardware sites unreliable sources of info?

Free hardware

The reason Xtremesystems seem honest and knowledgable about ocing and hardware is that their site like ours is dominated by the forums. The vast majority of forum users there pay for gear out of pocket and aren't afraid to put hardware down or swap it out if it sucks. Their rent doesn't depend upon saying nice things about it on XS.

I don't think that what is needed is another hardware review site personally. I think that someone can take all the testing of 2) hardware presented by the big (biased?) sites (don't forget to note the testing that they DON'T do as well) and then reinterpret it.

Like what I got out of the $500 video card reviews this week was:

1) I could buy an xbox, a gamecube, and a PS2 for roughly the same price as this video card

2) I am not going to get a $150 9700 Pro any time soon, and that will be about what's needed for Doom3

3) Price is irrelevant when the hardware is free to the reviewer. People barely mention that the card would require most people to save up for a pretty good while to afford. Long enough savings that it would seem slow when you got it

Ok back to slacking er I mean work

[Joe]

I do think the unreliable based on if the hardware was free or not is largely based on the writer not the fact they got it for free.

But it is very true that if you depend on that company to keep paying your rent, and if you give them a bad review... you could loose your rent... that’s where biased or flat out bull shit reviews come into play.

One of the ironies to all this with ProCooling is run by people who work real jobs, and have real lives. This means that really.. I could care less if a company sends me some free hardware. Suck is Suck no matter who sends it or what I pay. If the company doesn’t like it... oh well, there are others, and it doesn’t risk my bottom line at all. But the irony part is while the reviews and tests may be more credible, there are less of them since we work to pay for our rent and not rely off the site... Cant have your cake and eat it to I guess Because I do buy most of my hardware ( or work side jobs and get paid in goodies), the facts of “cost” is a very big one to me. A 500$ video card is serious money, and is pretty much obscene for just a video card.

I won’t run a hardware site just to run another site... I will run a hardware site if I can find a niche or take on it that someone else isn’t doing... I will not run a site if its just going to be a carbon copy of the thousands of here today gone tomorrow websites. Gotta find a edge or aspect to exploit that the big “corporate” sites cant or don’t look at.

[pHaestus]

Well...

I am reasonably qualified to talk cooling and to talk overclocking. However, I am not sure i could write a review of say a motherboard with the same technical expertise. I liked your aopen mobo review, but then again I mostly paid attention to the PWM fan control and hardware monitoring features

I have an idea that I will marinate on for a minute and then post for a monthly feature that I would be happy to do.

[Joe]

This idea better not be "Random pH body part picture of the month" cause I want no part of that hehehe

[pHaestus]

I was thinking that perhaps an interesting "community-based" feature for the site could be something like:

Electronics Project of the Month

Where we pick a project (there are probably 3-4 such projects floating around the forums at the moment already) and then try a few different approaches to make the project go. Similar to Brian's fan controller article, but with a parts list for all the methods and a critique of the final products.

This was sort of how Yo-Duh laid out his article as well. There are usually several ways to accomplish something, with tradeoffs in every one.

I was actually thinking of Since87's dP sensor as a way to determine flow rates in a wced system without obstructing flow as a pilot project

Is there interest in my getting the testbed running to gauge performance of DIY blocks now that Bill is unavailable? Be aware that the CPU would be heat source with all of its drawbacks...

[bigben2k]

I like the Electronic part (surprised?).

As for the testbench, I think it would be a good idea too. What pricing are you thinking about?

[pHaestus]

No idea; was just throwing that out there. Seems the logical thing to do given the success of the waterblock construction forum. It would depend on the number of blocks and the regularity of testing I guess. Let me get the system set up (I keep getting distracted) and see from there. If it were 2-3 times a year involving 5-6 of the best blocks I could probably do for free; if it became more regular and more blocks then perhaps a fee to cover wear and tear on my lazy ass

[jaydee]

Maybe a Modding site that covers hardware mods, software mods, case mods, drive mods, ect... There are few of them out there but I don't find any of them to interesting. There seems to be enough educated people around procooling that we should be able to come up with some cool stuff. It can have all the electronic gadgets aswell.

[Aardil]

Well, a few of you have seen what I can do or get done, I am willing to help in any way possible. The reasoning behind no schematic posted of my PWM controller is , I am trying to market it. Thats the simple explanation. I have made thousands of mistakes in my life and paid for most of them out of pocket, If the PWM controller doesnt sell then I may post the schematic for others to use if they want.
I can try to write a review but not very good at it.
Maybe I should just stay reading the posts and help where I can with Noob questions
Aardil

[Brad]

I disagree with you there slightly Joe about overclocking. Every day at our store we have 1-2 people talk to us about overclocking, what parts we recommend. Those sort of customers typically have money to spend too

If you're concerned about how good aircooling is compared to watercooling then why don't you do a test? buy an slk900 with a couple of fans, convince cathar to send you a WW waterblock, and go for it.

I still beleive there is a long way to go in watercooling, and I beleive that this site is still the only one of two on the net that is actually worthwhile. (oc'ers.com is the other)

Ever since I've known you Joe I've always talked about this site needing more articles, and that comment doesn't change. most of the big sites post anywhere between one and 5 articles a week. I realise many of the big sites have professional reviewers who don't work, but it's still something to consider. it doesn't need to be a huge watercooling system everyday, a simple waterblock review would be ok

[Zhentar]

I'd love to see you do waterblock testing pHaestus. It would of course also have all the advantage of a real CPU too, which could be nice.

[pHaestus]

advantages? Not aware of any. Currently trying to wrap brain around a "W" measurement without too much success.

[pHaestus]

I am almost certain that I express the wishes of our readers (and I am certain that this reflects our sponsers) when I say "Goddammit just do SOMETHING".

We have always written more involved pieces though. Are shorter (maybe one page) how tos and projects of interest?

[Brians256]

I have a hard time writing anything short and simple, and I also have a hard time finding time to write anything long and complex.

Somewhere in there is a problem.

[Cyco-Dude]

...Electronics Project of the Month...
Is there interest in my getting the testbed running to gauge performance of DIY blocks...?

ooh, monthly projects sound fun. procooling is kinda already doing that (airspirits mod for example). i wouldnt mind seeing more of those on a regular basis.

not just DIY blocks pH, but all blocks wb reviews = good stuff. watercooling gear in general is all fine by me, with all the crappy and half-assed reviews out it would be a good change of pace to actually have a review that doesnt suck lol. wb vs hsf compare article? i have serious doubts any hsf with any fan would top a quality WB, but i would still be interested in seeing it. perhaps the next time you did a wb review, you could toss in an SLK + 80cfm jet engine just for shits n giggles (sounds a bit more reasonable than, say, WW vs some HSF article lol).

as far as the hardware, OCing, casemod sister site, i dont think it would fly. there are plenty of those already. besides, thats what the forums are for


also, i OC because i NEED to (i like eye candy, and eye candy costs frames ). and my system will be quieter than my 38cfm delta black label despite the fact im replacing it with 3 120mm fans and 2 80mm fans. and even tho the wc'ing market has expanded, i dont think its 'mainstream' yet. watercooling is still cool (har har)

[jaydee]

I don't know, ProMods has a ring to it. Yeah we could just expand this site though I guess.....

[koslov]

If you modify the scope of the site, or create a new one, just remember the kind of audience you will attract. The reason I like PC so much is that the people here are knowledgeable and mature. I don't know of any other cooling / hardware site that has as sophisticated an average user.

That may sound elitist, and maybe it is, but once the 'leet' kiddies start coming in droves, the quality of forums falls dramatically. Of course, the young kids are where the money is, who else can spend $500 on a video card every year?

One idea I really like is adding more electronics articles. While OC'n is becoming less useful and more about ego, electronics IS useful. You can make your computer much more reliable (relays, temp probes), give you more control over noise (PWM), and save energy (pelt controllers). I think there is a lot more out there that can be done too, from custom displays to home automation.

[Zhentar]

pHaestus - there's always advantages to running real world tests over synthetic tests. Namely that you test real world performance and not synthetic performance. Its not a lot different, and while its harder to get the heat you want, you do get to account for things like secondary heat paths and mounting pressure.

[Joe]

Koslov!

Excelent point to bring up. I want to clarify, I am NOT trying to get more traffic, I am actually really happy with what we have. I am trying to get some new material up on the site, and give our existing readers more goodies that they want.

I dont want all the "leet" kiddies coming over here in droves... that would really lower the quality of this forum quite a bit. Thats why I am asking YOU guys what YOU would like to see different to make what YOU guys are doing in the forums, more productive or cover more topics.


Anyone have any additional topics they want to see brought up in the forum?

[utabintarbo]

I'm with pH here. Electronics is just complicated enough to keep out the "kiddies" (as koslov calls them), but useful enough to keep the serious geeks among us interested. Plus, we have quite a few people here who are really qualified in this arena.

Bob