2 Barb Mini MicroCup Pics...

[Tuff]

Here it is...

I have scaled it down to 36mmX55mm.

49 holes x 5/64

And yes still using the SpreadBore for the Inlet.

I have decided to continue the use of the Spreadbore rather than try to produce the difficult Jets. Jury is still out on the Jet idea anyway.

I have also gone with a 3mm channel for the water to travel to the outlet barb rather than the 2mm on the previous block.






Tuff

[Tuff]

Before I get blasted like I did at an alternative forum....More details to go with the pics...once they are up.

1. The base plate is 1 mm thick
2. The holes are for bolting it together.
3. The block is not 2in X 3in...it is 36mmx55mm...Half the size of the last one.
4. A piece of Lucite will be for mounting it...Which will be bolted as a fourth piece to the TOP.
5. 3mm Cavity above the Inlet for the water to flow to the outlet.


Tuff

[Tuff]

Have had the block up and running..so far 3 deg less than the 1st Gen MicroCup block...which would put in on par with a WW as the 2nd gen block gets 6 deg lower.

I am basing this assumption on the fact that Cathar has said that his WW was on average 5 deg less than the Maze 3. "If memory serves me right"

The first gen block was tested against a Maze 3 and scored on average 3 deg less.


I will hopefully be sending this block off to www.benchtest.com for some critique. But before that it will be put into another system to help varify results that I have found.

Tuff

[t00lb0x]

What forums did you get blasted at? And looks nice...

[satanicoo]

above all it looks DARK!

But its an interesting aproatch, since you are making a Jet block very easily without the 'tubes'.

[t00lb0x]

Yeah that is pretty smart :P. I'll have to incorporate that in my idea. I'm trying to finish it in gMAX but I'm a horrible horrible 3d modeler.

[MadDogMe]

have decided to continue the use of the Spreadbore rather than try to produce the difficult Jets. Jury is still out on the Jet idea anyway.

I have also gone with a 3mm channel for the water to travel to the outlet barb rather than the 2mm on the previous block.

What is 'spread bore'? I take it from the following comments you're not using any jet~tubes or even a jet~plate?. I'm not flaming but I find the ''WW performance'' quote pretty hard to believe if you're not using any impingment technique whatsoever. Did you test the M3 and 2BMMC block on the same day?. Same room temps, same~same, ect?...

What do you mean about the "Jury is still out on the Jet idea anyway" comment?...

From what I can see it looks OK for a drill press job, it's a PITA getting the holes lined up I know ...

[Cathar]

My Maze 3 was lapped properly by me after I received it. The base wasn't that flat to begin with and I picked up an easy 2C from that lapping of it. Since I'm comparing against a well known product, I want that product to be operating in the best possible way that it can be made to, and to remove any possible inherent performance variances that may exist as it comes from the factory. That way I'm comparing against a well defined "high point" for a design, rather than a possible "middle or low point" in which performing "better" can suddenly be absorbed by merely picking/receiving a better example of the competing block.

All tests were run to equilibrium and the environment was very carefully controlled. Each block was mounted at least 10 times to minimise mounting variations which could, on occasion amount to 3C differences, and the various blocks were alternated between mounts to ensure that results were repeatable and comparable with earlier results and to provide additional control and detection for test setup and environment variances.

Since I'm developing a block, I feel that I absolutely owe it to myself to do these things, since it costs me money to make blocks and I don't want to be fooling myself as to what direction I'm heading at any point in time, or worse, that should anyone buy a block from me and perceive that I have fooled them as well.

I don't know how any of that applies to what is going on here. I just thought I'd share what I do to determine how well a block that I make performs relative to any other block. If I'm going to claim it's better than another block, it must be better than the best possible representation of that other block.

[Tuff]

What do you mean about the "Jury is still out on the Jet idea anyway" comment?...

What I am saying is that until Cathar releases results..nobody knows anything for sure.

Tuff

[Tuff]

Since I'm developing a block, I feel that I absolutely owe it to myself to do these things, since it costs me money to make blocks and I don't want to be fooling myself as to what direction I'm heading at any point in time, or worse, that should anyone buy a block from me and perceive that I have fooled them as well.

I don't know how any of that applies to what is going on here. I just thought I'd share what I do to determine how well a block that I make performs relative to any other block. If I'm going to claim it's better than another block, it must be better than the best possible representation of that other block.

Alright..Fair enough...I will see that the block is lapped.

Also...I am kinda getting tired of being called a liar...though you did it in a polite wayl

Tuff

[Cathar]

Originally posted by Tuff
Also...I am kinda getting tired of being called a liar...though you did it in a polite wayl

All I did was relate my testing procedures as a point of reference. Since you're keen to compare with the White Water, I thought it might be useful to explain how the White Water's results were obtained. It was not intended as any personal judgement towards yourself.

[Tuff]

I have been told many times...remount the block 10 times...same day...same room temp...ect...Just get tired of hearing it.




Tuff

[Blackeagle]

Tuff,

Ease up man. Cathar is about as polite and helpfull a person as you'll find.

And as to the repeated comments on testing methods, it's just that everyone wants to see you get it straight where your results will be repeatable and beyond question.

[leejsmith]

why not post some actual pictures of the block in action and some on screen results.

do you use mother board monitor ? you can record temp reading into a file.

use print screen and capture on screen temp readings of maze 3 and your new block.

something that will prove your results to the world.

[MadDogMe]

I was'nt calling you a liar, I'm not saying it is'nt the same performance as WW, just saying I find it hard to believe a non~impingment design could equal WW (it's a case of doubt, not "you're a liar!!". I'd be happy to be proved wrong ). It'd be best to test it against a WW directly though cause a WW could beat the M3 by say 9DegC on your particular system. Cathars 5DegC was an average, taken from a high and a low, there's no way of knowing for sure from rig to rig..

PS, Look at the lenghts BillA had to go to to be taken seriousley!! ...

[Khledar]

It's also quite difficult to directly compare blocks, on soley a temperature basis - as these more restrictive blocks have heavier dependencies on the available water pressure - etc. I mean this has all been discussed before - the more thorough a set of results (testing methods, etc.) - the more acurately they can be interpreted by the readers... Maybe wanna indulge us with your setup Tuff? [Note: I think MadDogMe pretty well covered the variations from system to system - just restating its also a concern of mine.]

Now back on topic!


I like the size, it's great to see blocks come down to a more reasonable size, "gee we only have to cool the die?" Don't get me wrong big blocks have their places (TEC for example) - but some fine tuning of what exactly is necessary is nice to see.

Is the channel between inletand oulet fairly restrictive? If so, I can't understand why you would seek restriction tthere - Please explain - If not, ok then... :P

I'd also love to see some pics of this block mounted up.

MadDogMe, your questions seems to have gotten a little lost in the winding of the thread but a spread bore looks to be shown in the leftmost piece of the block and is almost the opposite of a nozzle, where there is more lateral room given to the incoming water, I'm not sure what function it serves really. I'm also not sure how much nozzles will affect the performance, as the water would be striking the cups directly anyway, and they are quite close together, ie, not too much "impingency" is lost due to water striking in the "wrong" places. However, water won't really be striking the areas not directly under the inlet, or on the outside of the spreadbore. I question the necessity of the spreadbore because the flow in that are would be secondary to striking the area directly under the inlet, ie the flow would not be of an impingent nature.

Also if nozzles were used to increase the area (amount of cups) that could be struck with X amount of force, then I could see an increas due to that.

But we will soon see.

[Tuff]

Sensor 1
6/9/2002;4:40:04 PM;2075 MHz;22°
6/9/2002;4:39:55 PM;2075 MHz;30°
6/9/2002;4:39:46 PM;2075 MHz;25°
6/9/2002;4:39:37 PM;2075 MHz;23°
6/9/2002;4:39:28 PM;2075 MHz;23°
6/9/2002;4:39:19 PM;2075 MHz;24°
6/9/2002;4:39:10 PM;2075 MHz;28°
6/9/2002;4:39:01 PM;2075 MHz;26°
6/9/2002;4:38:52 PM;2075 MHz;22°
6/9/2002;4:38:43 PM;2075 MHz;25°
6/9/2002;4:38:34 PM;2075 MHz;26°
6/9/2002;4:38:25 PM;2075 MHz;25°
6/9/2002;4:38:16 PM;2075 MHz;26°
6/9/2002;4:38:07 PM;2075 MHz;30°
6/9/2002;4:37:58 PM;2075 MHz;23°
6/9/2002;4:37:49 PM;2075 MHz;23°
6/9/2002;4:37:40 PM;2075 MHz;18°
6/9/2002;4:37:31 PM;2075 MHz;26°
6/9/2002;4:37:22 PM;2075 MHz;24°
6/9/2002;4:37:13 PM;2075 MHz;26°

average is 23-24 deg

Readings from MBM.

Tuff

[Cathar]

What is up with those temperatures? Why the wild swings from 18-30C? How can you draw any conclusions from something that erratic?

[GTA]

I agree, I mean, a few degrees switch each way, fair enough, but 14 degrees? thats taking the piss.

My system is pretty much the same temp, day in, day out, month in, month out, it varies by about 3 degrees over an entire month, as my house is fairly well insulated.

I wouldn't trust any sensor that varied by up to 80% mate.

[bigben2k]

Tuff, do you want some assistance getting a temp reading? PM me an e-mail addy: there's no sense in making this public.

[jaydee]

Originally posted by Tuff
Sensor 1
6/9/2002;4:40:04 PM;2075 MHz;22°
6/9/2002;4:39:55 PM;2075 MHz;30°

8C change in 9 seconds?

6/9/2002;4:39:19 PM;2075 MHz;24°
6/9/2002;4:39:10 PM;2075 MHz;28°

4C change in 9 seconds?

6/9/2002;4:39:01 PM;2075 MHz;26°
6/9/2002;4:38:52 PM;2075 MHz;22°

4C change in 9 seconds?

6/9/2002;4:38:16 PM;2075 MHz;26°
6/9/2002;4:38:07 PM;2075 MHz;30°
6/9/2002;4:37:58 PM;2075 MHz;23°

Rise of 7C and a drop of 4C in 18 seconds?

6/9/2002;4:37:49 PM;2075 MHz;23°
6/9/2002;4:37:40 PM;2075 MHz;18°
6/9/2002;4:37:31 PM;2075 MHz;26°

Drop of 8C and a rise of 5C in 18 seconds?

average is 23-24 deg

You can't pull an average from readings that messed up and make any type of logical conclusion about anything.

Readings from MBM.

Tuff

It isn't working.

[Tuff]

Those are the temps that MBM reports....and gives an average at the end.


Its off the Diode which is able to respond very quickly to temp changes...if anyone out there thinks that a Cpu temp does not change and stays around the same number...you are fooling yourself.

Like I said the MBM is reporting an average temp...the sum of all divided by the amount of readings.

I could have easily posted the other temps off the monitors..that just sit idle and move back and forth by 1 deg...but I am assuming that is not accurate.

The only way to get an accurate temp is to get the original temp off the water...and find out the difference when it leaves the block.

Would it have been better for me to post that Asus Probe says 26 deg and just sits there???

Tuff

[Khledar]

I'm not certain here, but with some of my limited physics knowledge, it doesn't sound plausible that these changes are occuring so quickly without huge amounts of energy being transferred.

On the other hand, your block does not contain enough copper to buffer the temps as well as some bigger ones, but the changes outlined above still seem quite extreme unless you were flicking the on/off switch on your pump. It's concievable that a sudden increase in cpu utilization could be overloading the waterblock, but that somehow doesn't make sense if the flow is constant.


I dunno about that Asus probe either, but it sounds more consistent than the on die probe.

[MadDogMe]

Its off the Diode which is able to respond very quickly to temp changes...if anyone out there thinks that a Cpu temp does not change and stays around the same number...you are fooling yourself.

AFAIK MBM5(and the Asus monitoring utility) uses the socket diode to read temps. The CPU diode is only used in the 'Asus COP' CPU Overheat Protection to trigger a shutdown. This might have changed by now, I don't exactly keep up with asus mobos...

AFAIK if that kind of temp swing was real it would be picked up by the socket thermistor as well anyway. It would take alot of CPU cycles to make the watts needed to make that big a temp change. My CPU only 'swings' 6~7DegC from idle to 'full' load :shrug: ...

If the CPU is 100% loaded the temp should'nt swing at all as the CPU can't do anything TO generate any more heat :shrug: , where those readings taken at idle?, you might have a utility running in the background but even then those temps are too swung out...

MBM5 often has mobo specific settings, have a look in the options to see if your particular mobo needs a certain setting enabled to caliberate it properly...

PS. An average needs to be taken across hours of usage. It takes anything up to 1.5hrs to reach equalibrium. temps will 'rocket' up to say 38load in ten minuets, but then slowly creep up to 42 across another hour. It's when it's reached equalibrium that you should start your readings for an average...

[Tuff]

Quote:

On the other hand, your block does not contain enough copper to buffer the temps as well as some bigger ones.


Thats not accurate at all...The waterblock is there to MOVE Heat to the water..not control the temp of the cpu. The amount of heat that is removed is proportional to the Temp of the cpu.

Think of a dimmer switch on a light. We can limit the amount of light that is being used...therefore we have a lower temp. Once we turn the light on full...we get a higher temp.

Works the same with a Cpu...although the voltage is at a contstant...if we do not demand more usage from the cpu it will have a lower temp We increase the usage we get a higher temp.

The waterblock has NO IDEA how much heat is generated until it has to absorb it. But the DIODE does. The diode gives a more accurate reading than any other measuring device..that is supplied onboard. It is able to tell what is happening at an instant...while a normal thermometer will slowly raise and lower.

For this reason..the diode is used by the vendors for monitoring the heat. If the temp raised to high..the comp shuts down...if it was regulated by a thermometer...everyone would have a cooked cpu by now.

Tuff