New WC rig in beginning stages...Wanting input

[arcsylver]

Edited as per request to make things a easier to understand.

Edited again due to parts list change

OK first the background info:

I recently acquired 2 Wall Mount style Rack Mount cabinets that I plan to use to house a new water cooled system.

The Smaller Cabinet is 24" W x 24" H x 26" D

The Larger Cabinet is 24" W x 36" H x 26" D

I plan to hoiuse the computer in the larger cabinet and the watercooling system in the smaller one with tubing run between through the cable routing holes in the cabinet


Next the parts list for the computer to be placed inside this beast. ( forgive the cut/paste from neweggs wishlist page)

1. I-Star 4U Rackmount Server (Black), Series D-400

2. Antec 550W Power Supply For TRUE550

3. ASUS Motherboard for Intel Pentium 4 / Celeron Processors, 800Mhz FSB Model# P4C800-E DELUXE

4. Intel Pentium 4 / 3.0CGHz 512k socket 478 Hyper Threading Technology 800 MHz FSB

5. Mushkin 1GB PC 3200 Level One (2x512MB) Dual Black PCB 232, Part# 991089

6. Asus Geforce FX 5600 Video Card 256MB DDR Model V9560TD

7. Creative Labs Sound Blaster Audigy 2 Platinum (Model SB0240P)

8. X2 Western Digital 120GB SATA WD1200JD 7,200 RPM 8MB Hard Drive

9. PIONEER BLACK INTERNAL ATAPI 16X DVD-ROM MODEL DVD-120VA

10. PIONEER DVD-Recordable (Black Bezel) DVD-R DVD-RW DVD+R DVD+RW MODEL DVR-106BK

11. *BLACK* PANASONIC 1.44 MB DENSITY FLOPPY DISK DRIVE, MODEL # JU-256A-198P

12. X2 Antec Cobra A26 UV Activated Round 133 ATA Cable Model 77227

13. Antec Cobra F16 UV-activated plastic Round Floppy FDD Cable Model 77217

14. Logitech BLACK Optical Desktop

15. x6 ANTEC Clear Case fan With BLUE LEDs Lights 120 x 120 x 25.4 mm 70 CFM 36 dBA

16. Copper Cascade Waterblock by Cathar



Now with this list in mind to be cooled I have come up with the following.

The waterblock of course needs the rest of a cooling loop.

So I decided to try making my own radiator design I have been toying with for a while now. As the rest of this thread indicates it is an ongoing process but it is very much feasible to do so with easily acquired parts.

My plan is thus.

Copper tubing of either 1/2", 5/8" or 3/4" ID for the primary tubing of the radiator.

1/16" copper sheet to make the fins

1/4" copper plate to make two resivior towers to either side of the radiator as well as the support structure of the entire thing.




My Objectives for this project are as follows:

1. To hand build a functional Radiator/Resivior using all copper construction. Radiator design is to include two separate cooling loops for CPU and GPU/NB.

2. To achieve good cooling results as well as provide adequate cooling for possible overclocking experimentation.

3. Use copper tubing for as much of the coolant flow as possible. Only exception to this should be inside the 4U case where Clear Vinyl will be used for flexibility.

4. Use suggestions and design ideas from these forums to expand the design concept to accept new or innovative ideas as I am capable of producing here with my limited resources.

5. Maintain a budget limit of 3000 USD for everything (the computer takes up approx 2000 of this budget already)


Now that all this is said, lets continue the discussion on this project and as soon as I can get a decent host for pictures I will begin shooting some for progress and updatres to things.


UPDATE 8/27/03

I just added up the cost of things thus far and I am sitting at

2143.94 USD

Mind you a lot of the things have yet to be purchased. This is based off of the totals given at Newegg.com as well as a few other shops and does not take into consideration Newegg shipping costs.

I won the Rackmount blower fan on E-Bay and I am waiting to see if I win the 57 Chevy Copper radiator. If I do the cooling loop will be half way done already. Just tubing pumps and WB to get.

[arcsylver]

I guess no love for the newbie

I was hoping someone would at least tell me I am full of it.

Oh well, Maybe a discussion on the radiator design by itelf would be better?


I am hoping to have two separate cooling loops in the system but I do not want to have to mess with two separate radiator in the case. I am wanting it to look as pro as possible.

The basic idea is a copper radiator with two independent runs of tubing going from the botom to the top with a PVC or similar tubing holding tank on each side of it.

One thing I need to know is how many passes the tubing should be or maybe shouldn't be to keep a good flow rate going.

The dimensions for the entire thing can be no larger than 24" by 24"

I plan to use 4 ac fans similar to a comair rotron on in n a 2x2 grid with a shroud

[bigben2k]

You've got the basics of a good idea, but your post is a little disorganized, which makes it a little difficult to follow. Try numbering your objectives. As Gary Busey said last night, "you're like a frog hopping around in a bowl of rice looking for a threesome. Improv, thank you!"

Are you looking for a quiet system? (4 AC fans tells me no)

Is this cage going to be mounted in a closet, or other enclosed space?

Are you looking for some good performance/overclock, or just a good cooling solution?

Are you looking to mount the mobo "rackmount style", or are you going to patch some kind of mobo tray together yourself? ("no ghetto" tells me "rackmount style").

Where's the monitor going to be?

Is the keyboard/mouse/monitor going to be in the same room as the box? If not, then why wall mount it?

Is there only going to be a CPU block? What pump did you have in mind?

Why no DC?

[arcsylver]

Edited due to edit of first post in topic to state objectives clearly

[bigben2k]

Much better

Now state your questions, by topic.


As for the pumps, from what I've seen in various forums, the L20 is a great pump, but the bigger models may be noisier.

Now if you want a "pro" setup, I'm not going to mention the Johnson pump, because the MTBF just doesn't make it a smart choice, even though it should outrun its MTBF by a large margin. The "pro" choice is an Iwaki pump. I'll let you run a search throughout this Forum for all the good comments on it, and the different model's details.

The "pro" choice is going to include quick-disconnects. They're pricey, and can be difficult to source, but they're around. But if you put the whole PC and cooling gear in the box, then why would you have any external hosing?

Otherwise, you ought to be thinking about how you're going to easily drain this thing, and that means figuring out how to route the hoses to where most of the coolant can flow out.

Copper tubing isn't flexible, so if you want to keep your waterblock level on the CPU core, you ought to mix copper and vinyl tubing.

How and where do you plan on mounting that core/fan/and shroud?

[arcsylver]

OK Qestions by topic ok gotcha here goes.

Topic one the Radiator/Res I am designing and having built.

1 WHat would the best tubing size in the rad be? I am thinking actual 1/2" ID tubing throughout the thing.

2. How many "reversals" (times the tubing doubles back to zig zag through the rad) woul dbe a good choice to work with?

3. Any ideas on how I could do this all myself without the influence of a radiator company and still pull off the results? Like what types of materials should I keep my eyes open for?

4. I need a good source for 3" diameter Clear Pipe. Suggestions?

Topic #2 The pump of choice.

1. Well I have set an artificial limit to this rig of a cost limit of no more than I am hoping 3000 dollars completed. The parts for the comp take up 2/3 of this already. So with thtis in mind, The Iwaki may be a later upgrade to the system once the proof of concept is done and things are working. With that in mind I like the little Hydor I have and am curious if the larger pumps will be up to the task of such a behemoth system.

Topic #3 Tubing.

1. I would like to do all of the external to the actula computer tubing in 1/2" ID copper. The internal tubing will more than likely be vinyl or tygon. Debating on whether to do a top window mod on the actual computer case inside the cabinet to make the internals visible.



Topic #4 My background in things related.

Like my signature says I have been tweaking comps since the IBM XT days but I just got into computer modding about 3 years ago. As for watercooling I officially took the leap to it on January 1st 2003. I have been doing research on it and theorhetical discussion about it for about another 6 months prior to it.

I am a US Navy and Self trained electronics technician so I am not afraid of doing custom wiring etc. And I have taught myself/ can reasearch how to do almost anything plumbing related to this project.

The more I think about this thing the more I want to tackle that adiator myself for the whole "lookie what I did factor as well as the pride of designing and making it myself. I like to tinker and it makes me feel good to know something I made myself actually works as I designed.

This will be my first real attempt to pull off a truly pro grade system from the gorund up. I want it to be kick a$$ quite frankly but I also want it to look it as well.


I have managed to confirm today thanks to a brief trip to Home Depot that a 3" to 4" PVC Coupler will fit perfectly in the bottom of the back door and is my basis for measurement of the other components.

[airspirit]

http://www.procooling.com/articles/h...watercoole.php

This article (in its entirety) may help you greatly. I don't know that there is much more I can add.

[arcsylver]

Already read it three times

It was actually part of what inspired me to do this project in a way.


I have access to parts that most don't have due to a local electronics firm having a distributing center nearby that allows me to snag thier throw aways.

Like I just found out I can get another cabinet identical to this one for free as well.



I did have the idea of making the resiviors on the sides of the rad out of copper plate instead of piping to make the assembly all copper and add a small amount of cooling capacity through radiant cooling of hte twin resiviors. I could also more precicely control the overall size of the radiator this way by making the resivior fit better into the allotted space.

[bigben2k]

Ah, if you can get another one for free, you'll have to hook me up!

I'll extend an extra special welcome to Navy personel: Airspirit used to be a Navy man too.

Back to work...

For the rads, personally, I didn't put a lot of effort into selecting one, other than going through the database to pick one that was exactly the size I needed, and as thick as possible. If you want details on the whole runs/pass question, we covered it here (I think).

For the pump, you're not really going to need anything bigger than what you have now. If you want to do a proof-of-concept, you might consider running two of those pumps in series, then later upgrade to the Iwaki. But if you're about 2/3 of the way on this 3'000 budget, you're doing very well, and the Iwaki should fit.

For the tubing, I'm still a little confused as to why you need any external run of pipes. Otherwise, you might be in for a shock, when you find out the actual measurements of the copper and PVC parts: "1/2" copper piping isn't 1/2", inside or out! www.mcmaster.com has the specs on the actual measurements, but a trip to Lowes with a ruler always helps.

For clear tubing, the above link, or USplastics.com have them, in either polycarbonate or acrylic. There's a couple more links floating around these forums, I'm sure someone will pitch in (right? ).

[arcsylver]

Well I think I may have decided to build the entire res/rad from copper.

The res would be better made if it was flat sided instead of round not to mention it would fit better in the allotted space and give a little more water volume to boot.

As far as the pump is concerned I will need at least two pumps anyways or a y split The radiator has two separate cooling loops in it. The more I think about it the more I think I can actually build it myself. I just have to find a good fairly cheap source for copper plate and tubing is all.


I know the tubing sizes are different between vinyl and copper. that is why I am going to get the vinyl tubing last just before I actually leak test the system. (admittedly many months from now probably.) I am going to take a sample of the copper tubing with me to get the absolute closest match to the copper as far as Inner Diameter goes to help keep the flow as unrestricted as possible.

I have a hybrid copper/Vynyl system currently and I am more than sold on the leak proofness of such a system. I am going to use the vinyl only inside the actual computer chassis itself not within the cabinet.

[arcsylver]

Just discovered something very interestig about this cabinet's back door.

A 120 mm fan will lay perfectly on the bottom of the back door.

I wonder if it would be possible to build the radiator in such a way as to allow for vertical airflow through it rather than horizontal. and if so , I wonder how it would perform?

[arcsylver]

Originally posted by bigben2k
Ah, if you can get another one for free, you'll have to hook me up!

I'll extend an extra special welcome to Navy personel: Airspirit used to be a Navy man too.

If we get this thing working and you can get the scratch up for the raw materials to build the rad I and shipping this beast to you I will more than gladly donate to the cause if at the end of all this it works like I hope. And yes that means with a radiator installed.

[airspirit]

One other thing to consider as an improvement to my design is using multiple weaker (quieter) pumps, with one on each line after your manifold. As far as the radiator goes, size and shape doesn't matter, as long as it is easy for you to maintain when filling and draining. Plastic is outstanding, I think, because it will not corrode, and can look quite nice if you get the clear stuff, though that is up to you.

As for radiators, you can just get three or four heatercores and wire them up in parallel rather than use one big core. That shouldn't be a problem. I would, however, recommend using the largest fans that you can find to cool them all, as larger usually means more powerful per sound output.

For manifolding, you should be able to find much more efficient ways to do it than I did ... using X intersections of PVC would have done the trick for me, though for some reason I insisted on designing for four blocks ....

For cheap and good pumps if you go with multiples, try a stack of Danner 3 pumps ... they are cheap, reliable, and silent if mounted correctly.

Oh, and try to plan for adding temp sensors into the coolant and such ... I really wish that I did in the beginning! Also, make sure to provision ways to fill and drain it ... that will be your one greatest headache if you don't. I mean it ... a multiple system cooling circuit can be a bastard to maintain in the best of circumstances (though minie is easier than my old setup), and in the worst ... well, I wouldn't curse that on anyone!

[bigben2k]

Originally posted by arcsylver
Well I think I may have decided to build the entire res/rad from copper.

The res would be better made if it was flat sided instead of round not to mention it would fit better in the allotted space and give a little more water volume to boot.

As far as the pump is concerned I will need at least two pumps anyways or a y split The radiator has two separate cooling loops in it. The more I think about it the more I think I can actually build it myself. I just have to find a good fairly cheap source for copper plate and tubing is all.

Kewl

I don't believe that the volume will affect performance, unless you know something that I don't.

You might prefer a single pump, and you can make it work like that. I personally don't see the need for a massive pump: watch out for those ideas that are so interesting/puzzling, that you end up following them blindly: they're not always the best choice. (Look at me, I've got 2 Johnson pumps! Doh!)

As for the airflow through the rad, you want to minimize the airflow resistance, so the wider the opening, the better. Keep the air flow run as short as possible; it also reduces the heat gradient of the air through the rad.

Airflow is absolutely critical. If I haven't mentionned it yet, a blower might be better here, if you've got the room. The trick is to going to be about how to control it, to reduce the noise.

Otherwise, since you're opting to make your own rad (a gutsy move!), you're on the right track with the square tubing, but you might want to take a look at Hayden tranny coolers: they have built-in turbulators, which makes them very efficient, for the space they use (run a search here, it's not hard to find).

Fin density is also going to be important, along with the ratio of fin to gap.

A double pass is the way to go (check that thread I linked to earlier, skip to page 3). You might also want to take a few minutes and read over Bill's Radiator roundup, on OverClockers: I'd post a link but it looks down right now ).

[arcsylver]

Well for the fin density I was looking to try and pull off 1/16th of an inch between them.


And yeah I really want to build it by hand for the self esteem / bragging rights.

[bigben2k]

Here's a link to the thread about turbulators that I mentionned earlier (and my painfully slow re-discovery of them!).


I still can't get on OC: is it still up?

[arcsylver]

Hmmm, Turbulators huh?


I was wondering about something similar using a coil of house grade copper wire wound and inserted into the straight tubes of the radiator.


I guess you would have to make sure the coils are open enough to allow the water to tumble over them but still allow for good surface contact with the outer wall of the tubing.

Or possibly wound around a length of smallr diameter tubing then inserted to force the water to spiral around the inner tube along the outer walls.

On a side note I wonder if putting such a thing into the tube feeding a water block inlet would help in cooling at that end?

[arcsylver]

I just did a little quick model using some scrap 3/8" tubing and some solder I had here on my desk to do a mock up of a turbulator.

What I did was simply wrap the solder around the tube using approx. 1/4" spaces between each wrap and it looks like it would do a very adequate job of adding turbulence to the flow inside the rad.

I even cooked up a way to suspend it in the center.

Bend the ends of the wire to create a sort of spring that rests aganst the tube walls just past the end of the smaller diameter tube and shape it so that the spring when compressed inside the larger tube holds the smaller tube in the senter of the larger tube at each end.

I am definitely going to give this a try.

Now I just have to find 2 tubing sizes that when a wire is wrapped around it fit tightly together or at l;east as close as I can get. I am thinking perhaps 5/8" outer tubing and 3/8" inner tubing.

Or perhaps 3/4" and 1/2"

Dunno but this definitely gives me more to think about

[bigben2k]

Originally posted by arcsylver
Hmmm, Turbulators huh?


I was wondering about something similar using a coil of house grade copper wire wound and inserted into the straight tubes of the radiator.

I guess you would have to make sure the coils are open enough to allow the water to tumble over them but still allow for good surface contact with the outer wall of the tubing.

Actually, it isn't so much about the surface contact area, as it is about having maximum turbulence on the tube wall: that's where you can decrease the thermal resistance, and get more performance.

Here's a pic of Hayden's Trans-T turbulator:


It's kinda hard to tell what it is precisely (protecting trade secrets?!?), but you can tell that it creates turbulence on the tube wall, and that's where it's needed.

[arcsylver]

I was looking at the swirl flow turbulator when I got the idea for the copper coil in the tube.

It would create a lot of turbulence and force the water to travel closer to the outer tubing walls at the same time increasing the overall contact with the outer wall to dissipate more heat.

I Think I may go this weekend possibly and pick up a couple of bits of tubing and see what I can mock up.

Who knows. This might be one of the only ways to make the Cascade block I am going to be ordering from Cathar to perform a little better. Or t could just be another stab in the dark.


That is what is so fun about this hobby. You never know until you try it.

[bigben2k]

For What It's Worth...

I had this idea some time back, about putting a chain of inversed cones inside a block, to create the same kind of turbulence I just mentionned:

[arcsylver]

Well news on the project thus far goes like this.

Got my email from Cathar about my request for a silvevr Cascade.

Now I just have to scrounge up the deposit money for it and get me a paypal account again. (ugh I hate that)\


As for the inverted cones idea. I wonder how hard it would be to make something similar out of rod stock copper to put into the radiator tubes? I think it would make things incredibly heavy though considering the wieght this thing is going to be already.


All I know is I can't wait to get me some tubing and plate stock and start working on this thing already.

[bigben2k]

Well since the cone chain doesn't actually need any kind of good thermal properties, it can be made of just about anything, but I'd stick with something that's near-buyant, just so that it doesn't get shifted, inside the tube.

Silver Cascade, huh?

[arcsylver]

Yeah I figured since I am going all out on this rig I may as well splurge a little (ok a LOT) on the WB and go for the silver one.

Since it will be a long time before I will ever be able to drop 3 grand on a computer again I want to make sure I have the highest quality parts I can put in it and Cathar's blocks definitely fall into the highest of quality standards.

About the cones. I would not really think something bouyant would be such a great idea because if it ever did come loose it would rattle around on the turbulent water more than something than isn't floating in the stream, also if not made of something fairly solid and non brittle it could break up and then you would have little floaties all through your rig.

[arcsylver]

UPDATE


Heh thanks to the powers that be I have become the proud new owner of a brand new 36" tall server cabinet as well as the original one.

This brings all sorts of interesting new possibilities to the mix. such as using the smaller cabinet as an external watercooling setup for the larger one.

Hmm, seems this project needs something.........a NAME would be nice.


Anyone have any ideas for a good name for this?