Hard drive waterblock ... sufficient cooling?

[Got KarmA?]

Currently, I have the following watercooled:
CPU
GPU
Northbridge

All cooled by a bong cooler, which can handle the heat just fine and keep my CPU damn near ambient temps.

Now ... the difficulty is, the biggest heat-generating components in my case now, and the reason why I still have some fans running at 7V .... are my hard drives. One Cheetah 15k.3 and one Atlas 10K III.

I intend to cool both of these, hopefully with ONE hard drive waterblock. I'll be placing the block between the two hard drives, on their metal portions,so I can use a fair amount of thermal goop to ensure proper contact along the entire face.

But my only concern is ... if I were to cut off the fans ... do the components on the OPPOSIT side of the hard drives generate enough heat to require cooling as well, either by air or water?

[Brians256]

I believe the major source of heat from a hard drive is not the electronics. It is the motor. This is the heat that you should be able to remove (for the most part) by your cooler.

As for whether your solution is "good enough" ... I would think so. These drives are designed for brutal conditions imposed by uncaring users. So they will probably work OK even with a suboptimal cooling solution. On the other hand, they want to sell replacement drives too.

If it was me, I'd try it out and monitor the drive temp with SpeedFan. I'd want my drive temp to remain lower than 45C even in worst case scenarios (e.g. hottest expected room temperature while pounding on the disks with some I/O intensive benchmark).

[starbuck3733t]

Speedfan wont talk to SCSI Disks

[Brians256]

Oops, starbuck3733t is correct. I didn't stop to think that those models are SCSI.

[MMZ_TimeLord]

I have stated in this thread (near the last postings) two designs for that type of block, but it's only good for one drive. The suggestion is there to turn your drives upside down with the motor facing up...unless you can get the cage to clamp two drives together... one rightside up and one upside down with the block in between.

Hope that helps.

[Got KarmA?]

Thanks, I'm gonna look into it.

I'm still kinda miffed that I can't find any HD waterblock reviews out there ... or more importantly, COMPARISONS between multiple products. I might just get pissed off enough to do one on my own

This speculation stuff is killing me.

[Zhentar]

my maxtor DM9+ used to break 45C plus in normal usage. Now however, it doesn't break 30C under load, while damped by some old t-shirts.

My waterblock? I bent maybe a foot and a half of copper into a U, beat the sides of the U relativly flat and then used some long bolts and a few metal plates to tighten the sides of the U to the sides of the drive pretty tightly; the Copper was starting to compress. didn't even use thermal grease.

[Got KarmA?]

Nice! Where are the readings being taken? Is this at the hottest part of the hard drive? Where is the hottest part?

[Gooserider]

Everything I've seen on the subject of cooling hard drives says that TIM goop isn't really needed. Unlike a CPU, a hard drive puts out a fairly small amount of heat (~20W as opposed to ~70+W) and does so over a quite large area. This means that a block has a really easy time of it and the near perfect TIM join required for a CPU isn't needed to do an adequate job on a drive.

As to type of block, I've heard of people gluing just about any kind of old CPU / NB / GPU block to a single drive. If one has a thin block that is flat on both sides (Such as a #Rotor type drive block) then it should be no problem to sandwich the block between the two drives. (I've also heard that it really doesn't matter which drive surface contacts the block, so no need to flip one of the drives over)

Just stack the drives with the block in the middle and figure out some way to clamp the whole stack together...

Gooserider

[Got KarmA?]

clamping it together was my problem

I'd like to avoid any risk of vibrational damage. The rotor blocks have mounting holes I believe that'll work with one hard drive. I'll of course need it working with TWO hard drives .... to that might mean making one a little bit further back, with recessed screw holes so I can screw one down, and then the other ....

[MMZ_TimeLord]

Vibration? If you have that much vibration from your drives, you may want to get insulating mounts and mount a small block to each. :shrug:

My understanding is that modern drives can take quite a bit of "vibration" or shock without suffering any problems.

[Got KarmA?]

I fully understand that today's drives are probably much more resistant to shock than they were in the past ... but many of those figures are for drives that are shut OFF ... and still, I believe that a drive thats not properly secured down and spinning at 10 and 15k rpm's may lessen the length of the drive over time. I'll take every precaution I can to protect my investments. Vibration doesn't need to be seen or heard to cause damage to the platters or heads.

[bigben2k]

A little known fact: HDDs are used in the space shuttle! (Yes, the same HDD that you and I use).

But I can't verify that they're running during take-off: I have to assume that they're not.

[Gooserider]

Should be possible to deal with clamping, several ideas I've had all seem workable depending on just how you plan to mount the drives otherwise.

If you are trying to mount in a 3.5" cage, it's a bit of a challenge due to space restrictions. The easiest would probably be to fasten the first drive to the bottom of the cage, stack everything else, then put largish springs or possibly some pressure bolts to squeeze the sandwich together.

If using a drive sled, suspending the drive stack in a 5.25" bay; or using the popular on SPCR 'accoustic muffler box' approach then things are alot easier since there is room to clamp the drives from the sides. Probably the easiest method would be to get four bars just longer than the width of the drives, drill holes in their ends, and make a clamp w/ long bolts or threaded rods. This approach would also work going the length of the drives, but it might be hard to get past the cables.

Remember that it shouldn't take a great deal of pressure to tie the stack together, and be creative in how to apply it.

BTW, minor vibration in running drives is not a big issue anymore. Indeed one of many popular noise suppression techniques is to suspend the drive in the middle of a nest of bungie cords - doing this with a stack might work very well since the bungies would hold the stack together at the same time they keep the drive from making the case resonate.

Gooserider

[Gooserider]

Got KarmA?: I fully understand that today's drives are probably much more resistant to shock than they were in the past ... but many of those figures are for drives that are shut OFF

It is true that the biggest shock resistance numbers are for non running drives, but even when running modern drives are pretty good. Also there is alot of difference between shock impacts from moving or dropping a drive and vibration produced by the drive's normal operation.

Note my earlier mention of the silent PC crowds 'bungie mounts' technique. In discussion of the pros and cons of doing a shock cord mount, there have been a FEW unverified suggestions that a shock mounted drive may have more seek errors because torque reaction between the head movement and the drive chassis makes the seek a bit less precise. (never backed up by any solid data, and many have reported no problems at all) However I've never seen any suggestions that a shock mount reduced the life span of a drive.

Gooserider

[snowman88]

Originally posted by bigben2k
A little known fact: HDDs are used in the space shuttle! (Yes, the same HDD that you and I use).

But I can't verify that they're running during take-off: I have to assume that they're not.

very interesting....hmm

[DigitalChaos]

I would suggest just using those $10 slim hard drive fans. They are quitet and do a better overal job than a waterblock.

I have some 7200rpm seagate cudas. the "circuit" side does get pretty hot... hot enough that i cant keep my hand on it.
the circuit side, as you said, isnt the easiest thing to cool with a block.

a block is good for picking up the heat on the aluminum casing that is generated by the spindle. You could pretty much cool any side of the drive except for the components (sides, back, bottom)
so if you just grabbed some cheap water block, mounted your drives ontop of eachother in a 3.5" cage, then cooled the ends of the drive, you would be fine. A little thermal grease would help in that config since you are working with the smallest surface area of the drive.


however i wouldnt rely on water block only cooling just because of the circuit side. even though several of my segate cudas have a shield on the circuit side with a sheet of foam in there that acts like insulation (it scares me.)



I think your final answer will be using a few thermal censors on your drive. find a few hot chips on the circuit side, and also measure the aluminum block. compare the temp changes with different cooling methods. In the end this will be the best answer, and the answer that you can feel safe with.

[vudoodoodoo]

Originally posted by starbuck3733t
Speedfan wont talk to SCSI Disks

Are they mad at each other? Maybe they'll work things out.

[DigitalChaos]

Originally posted by vudoodoodoo
Are they mad at each other? Maybe they'll work things out.

spam

[vudoodoodoo]

Originally posted by DigitalChaos
spam

Lighten up.

[DigitalPirate]

I have one of those Cheetah 15K drives, the 18.4GB(17.1GB with Win2K), and while it gets a little warm to the touch, watercooling isn't vital to its life. The Cheetah and it's two IDE relatives really don't need any cooling, as long as they have a little space above and below to breath(approx 1/2"). Convection cooling works just fine. I've been contemplating doing a 2 drive enclosure, for the two IDE drives, something that'll fit in two 5.25" enclosures. But with my current schedule, doing that would require a leave of absence from my d@mn job. Also it is overkill. Have I said that enough. If such a thing became neccesary, it would probably be for vibration/noise first, heat second.

[SexyMF]

Its a bit of an odd idea but:

Drop the HDDs into a vat of vege oil along with a waterblock or DIY few turns of copper pipe. This will remove heat from both circuit side and the case while the watercooling cools the overall oil. This should also provide good noise supression.

Of course you will have to trust that the drive is sealed good (which I expect it to be).

Told you it was a weird idea but it will work.

[msv]

Originally posted by Gooserider
Should be possible to deal with clamping, several ideas I've had all seem workable depending on just how you plan to mount the drives otherwise.

Gooserider

See attached file.
3.5" -> 5.25" adapters.
By two pairs, drill holes and use screws to ply them together. Only fasten one set of adapters in the chassi.
regards
Mikael S.

[MMZ_TimeLord]

SexyMF,

You are welcome to try that idea... however, I know for a FACT that most modern hard drives have "vent" holes to equalize the pressure within the drive with the outside air. It does have a filter or two in this vent or a valve of some sort... BUT it could be a way in for vegitable oil or other such substances.

I personally would be HIGHLY leary of doing that myself.

[Gooserider]

SexyMF:
Its a bit of an odd idea but: Drop the HDDs into a vat of vege oil along with a waterblock or DIY few turns of copper pipe. This will remove heat from both circuit side and the case while the watercooling cools the overall oil. This should also provide good noise supression. Of course you will have to trust that the drive is sealed good (which I expect it to be). Told you it was a weird idea but it will work.

This is a variant on an idea that some of the radical cooling types have been known to use, however it is not a good variant as proposed...

1. Vegetable oil does not keep well when exposed to air, or after being contaminated with any sort of bacteria. It goes rancid, and gets really smelly after a few months. It is then a real pain to clean. (and if you don't clean it, but just change the oil, the contamination left behind will make the new oil go bad even quicker!) Instead use MINERAL oil, which is more stable, electrically inert, and doesn't congeal under cold temps.

2. As mentioned by MMZ-TL, with the exception of a very few custom models used in aircraft and other specialized applications, modern drives are NOT sealed, but have intentionally installed vents to outside air. If you immerse them in any sort of liquid you will get rapid contamination of the drive platter chamber, followed by a very dead drive. (Which would do wonders for silencing since dead drives are generally pretty quiet ) The usual approach is to put the drive in a plastic bag so that the mouth of the bag is above the fluid, and allows the cabling to be connected, but puts the body of the drive under the fluid.

Gooserider