SNAP 2200 HDD Sizes ?

[teclis22]

Hi all !

I am currently running two Snap Server 2200 servers on my network. One is using 4.0.830 and the other is using 4.0.860

Since i have to restructure my network and kick some of the smaler units i operated due to electricity costs, i wanted to upgrade the capacity of the HDDs in the two Snaps.

But now the question ? How high can i go on the HDDs ? It would really really bite to buy 4 new disks just to find out they are not supported by the servers.

I planed on getting two HDD SAMSUNG HD400LD AT133 400GB 7200UM, 8MB C. for each unit. Has anyone any experience with this disk size ?

How would i go the easiest way about installing the new drives ?

I read that its best to first inistialize the servers with mirror raid , then switch them out one by one and have the mirror rebuild. Is that correct ?

If so, what disk do i have to change first or does it not matter? Will the raid be rebuild outomaticly or do i have to inistiate it over the debug console ?

For input regarding these matters i would be gratefull.

Best regards

Tec

[re3dyb0y]

For the method, well, without actually in a raid, it works

I usually just leave the current drive in 1st ide slot, put in the new one in the 2nd slot, let it format it and sort it out, turn it off, put the new drive in slot 1, and try it

If everythings ok, i reinstall teh os just to make sure all teh files are there


Its much easier doing it outside a raid set from experience, as mine was mirrored, but never rebuilt the raid, i had to manually break and remove it in the debug console


I believe 400GB should be fine depending on the bios and h/w and such

However, those drives are ATA-133, and there have been some reported problems with ATA-133 and or EIDE drives

[teclis22]

Hi !

Thanks for the fast answer. So you recommend to configure a "One Large Disk" instead of a mirrored raid ?

The Hardware version of the unit runing 4.0.830 software is 2.03 and Bios Version 3.4.758

The other unit i cant see in Snap Assist at the moment since its still in the DMZ for now. But i think the hardware is slightly higher in number.

So 400GB capacity would be ok you think ?

But if ATA 133 might cause problems, what would you recommend instead ?

Best regards

Tec

Sorry for my questions, but i am kind of a computer dummy.

[re3dyb0y]

I would NOT reccommend One large Disk instead - ie no raid

I would use JBOD (Just a Bunch of Disks)

Ie each hard drive is seperate and individual



Hardware, you would definately be fine. I just cant 100% comment about the size 400GB, but i cant see why not

Seagates have been very popular and well used successfully

[teclis22]

Hi there !

Aha, so each disk seperatly. Now that is an answer i understand. Never knew that was meant with JBOD. But now i understand it means : Individual Disks

Okay, that calms me to hear i am fine hardware wise. Going to look into the Seagate drives. From what i see so far they are mainly ATA-100 wich would be better as well since you adviced against ATA-133.


Options there would be :

HDD Seagate 320GB ST3320620A Barracuda 7200.10 16MB/ AT100 at 95 Euros

or
Seagate 400 GB ST3400832A - 7200 - 8MB/ATA100 for 140 Euros

Looking at those prices it might have to be the 320 GB version ... ahh money sucks. Way too hard to get and way too quickly spend.

Best regards and thanks alot.

Tec

[Phoenix32]

Okay, me being me, I just can't shut up and watch that one pass me by. I have to correct a very common error here.

JBOD is not individual disks, but Sam, who means well and is a good guy, was in fact telling you to set them as individual disks. JBOD is in fact a cousin to RAID. It does stand for "Just a Bunch Of Disks", but that is the point. JBOD is a Bunch Of Disks (2 or more) put into an array to look as if it was a single drive. They are not "stripped", "mirrored", or contain any "parity data", just strung together to look like a single drive. In fact, JBOD is where mixing and matching hard drives is okay because that is what it was designed for. It was originaly designed so that various spare drives laying around on the work benches could be put to good use. What I find interesting is that Adaptec SNAP advertising often lists JBOD as one of the modes supported by their SNAP units (or at least they get advertised that way by others) and yet as far as any SNAP unit I have seen 1st hand, JBOD is not a real option in the menus. Funny thing is, I see this often within advertising of RAID equipments of many manuacturers, and they too do not support this mode. Individual Disks is individual disks, not JBOD. (now off my soap box)


Back on topic...

Tec, as far as I know, if you are using OS version 3.4.805 or above, you can use any size hard disk currently available. Where the limitations are going to come in is the OS, Heat, and Power.

- To go above the LBA 48-bit barrier of 137 GB, you are going to have to use a SNAP OS that supports LBA 48-bit (v3.4.805 and above).

- For Heat, do not use drives that generate a lot of heat and ensure you have good cooling through your SNAPs by making sure you have good fans inside and they are clean etc.

- As for Power, the 12V rail on the SNAP 2x00 OEM power supply is rated at 3A maximum load and you need to take a little out for overhead, say .3A to .5A for fans etc, and it is not a good idea to run a power supply at max load all the time. 70% of max load is a good number to work with for continuous use. So given this info, a little math here, 3A x 70% = 2.1A - .4A = 1.7A. Divide the max load and continuous use numbers by two drives and this leaves you with 12V @ 1.5A startup power and 12V @.85A continuous/use/idle power each for your drives.

So doing the math, based on rated specs, you see the results. 12V @ 1.5A startup power and 12V @.85A continuous/use/idle power. Now with that said, I know for a fact that the Quantum 30 GB drives that were commonly installed in SNAP units, were rated at 1.7A Startup and approximately .5A idle/use. As you can see, that exceeds the max startup power a little. Obviously, the max rated specs on the SNAP 2x00 OEM power supply are a little (I said a little) under rated. Now add to this that many people have been sticking Seagate 250 GB (among others) in these SNAPs, which are rated at 2.5A startup and 1.1A normal idle/use. This means they are running their SNAPs drawing as much as 5.4A on Startup and 2.6A continuous (or 87% maximum load). As a Hardware guy, I have to say this is pushing the limits and not good for longevity, but people are getting away with it most of the time. Keep in mind, every time they shut down and start up that SNAP 2x000, they are running the risk of blowing that power supply (pushing it to almost twice it's max rated limit during drive spin up). Also keep in mind that at 87% of maximum load all the time when it is up and running, that is a lot of strain on the power supply and will cut it's life span. Keeping the SNAP cool inside, and thus the power supply, will help some on that. Also keep in mind that drive power ratings have a tendancy to be a little high because they rate an entire drive family by the highest power drain of any drive in that family as a general rule of thumb (not always).

Now, I am not saying do not put 250, 320, 400, 500 GB drives in there. What I am saying is know the risks. If it were me, I would look for drives using perpendicular recording because they have less platters and thus use less power during spin up and continuous use. If you use Seagate, I would not use 7200.7 or 7200.8 drives as they have higher failure rates and also draw more power and generate more heat. If you really want to research your drives better, go here

http://www.storagereview.com

If you blow one of your SNAP 2x00 OEM power supplies, go here

http://www.northwesttechnical.com


As for how to replace the current drives, here you go.

1. Set drives to INDIVIDUAL DISKS (no RAID arrays)
2. Power down the SNAP
3. Remove slave drive 2
4. Install first new drive
5. Power up SNAP and let it format/init the new drive (might take a little bit)
6. AFTER the new drive is formatted/initialized, turn the SNAP off
7. Remove the master drive 1
8. Install the second new drive
9. Cross fingers
10. Power up SNAP and let it format/init the new drive (might take a little bit)
11. If all went well, you are complete
12. If all did not go well, See David here on the forum
13. Just to be safe, reinstall OS
14. Configure disks as you prefer (Individual, RAID 1, RAID 0)

NOTE: If all did not go well, the most likely cause is the OS being on the drives


So, did that answer the question(s)?


Don't ya'll just love me

[re3dyb0y]

Originally Posted by Phoenix32

Okay, me being me, I just can't shut up and watch that one pass me by. I have to correct a very common error here.

JBOD is not individual disks, but Sam, who means well and is a good guy, was in fact telling you to set them as individual disks. JBOD is in fact a RAID array type. It does stand for "Just a Bunch Of Disks", but that is the point. JBOD is a Bunch Of Disks (2 or more) put into an array to look as if it was a single drive. They are not "stripped", "mirrored", or contain any "parity data", just strung together to look like a single drive. In fact, JBOD is the RAID arrays that mixing and matching hard drives is okay because that is what it was designed for. It was originaly designed so that various spare drives laying around on the work benches could be put to good use. What I find interesting is that Adaptec SNAP advertising often lists JBOD as one of the modes supported by their SNAP units (or at least they get advertised that way by others) and yet as far as any SNAP unit I have seen 1st hand, JBOD is not a real option in the menus. Funny thing is, I see this often within advertising of RAID equipments of many manuacturers, and they too do not support this mode. Individual Disks is individual disks, not JBOD. (now off my soap box)

Didnt know JBOD was a form of raid...

Lol

I thought that was just the term used for keeping the disks individual....?

Im sure mine keeps them as individual disks in JBOD......

:S

Gonna go and look

Originally Posted by Phoenix32

Don't ya'll just love me

Errm... about that....

[Phoenix32]

My post was corrected a on a few minor symantics. JBOD is not a true RAID mode (thus my corrections), but it is a kissing cousin to RAID beause it is an "array" of disks. Thus, calling it a RAID mode is more accurate than saying it is individual disks because being individual disks is what JBOD is trying to overcome.

Here is some light reading for you Sam...

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/perf/...evels/jbod.htm

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/perf/raid/index.htm

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/perf/...vels/index.htm

and this last one just helps for those confused and what RAID levels are what

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/R/RAID.htm

[re3dyb0y]

Originally Posted by Phoenix32

My post was corrected a on a few minor symantics. JBOD is not a true RAID mode (thus my corrections), but it is a kissing cousin to RAID beause it is an "array" of disks. Thus, calling it a RAID mode is more accurate than saying it is individual disks because being individual disks is what JBOD is trying to overcome.

Here is some light reading for you Sam...

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/perf/...evels/jbod.htm

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/perf/raid/index.htm

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/perf/...vels/index.htm

and this last one just helps for those confused and what RAID levels are what

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/R/RAID.htm

Me and david managed fine before you came along

Now shove off

:P




My Snap only has 1 drive in atm, so i cant look at the drive modes :P

[Hallis]

If you dont mind the Sam and Andy fighing like an old merried couple. the answer to your origonal question is that it should work fine. I would opt for some ATA-100 drives though.

Shane

[Phoenix32]

Originally Posted by re3dyb0y

Me and david managed fine before you came along

Now shove off

:P

See? He loves me...

Originally Posted by Hallis

the answer to your origonal question is that it should work fine. I would opt for some ATA-100 drives though.

Didn't I just say all that? I just gave all the need-to-knows also, so he knew the risks and could make a good choice.

[teclis22]

Hi guys !

Thanks for the detailed info. Alot of stuff to read on the provided links.


Regarding the power needs i found this link on seagates page :

http://www.seagate.com/docs/pdf/data...da_7200_10.pdf

Hops this works. So regarding the info on the higher drives they require 12 V and 13 Watt during operation. if i calculate this correctly ( W divided by Volt is Ampere) it is 13W/12V=1,09A Is that correct ?


Here the WesternDigital Link:
http://www.wdc.com/de/products/Products.asp?DriveID=117

In the electrical specifications the power consumption is split up, so i have to add it all together if i understood it correct. lets see ( 530mA+450mA = 980mA or 0,98A so about 0.1 A less then the Seagate drive.

Not sure if the WD supports prependual recording though. (what ever that is, have to research it)

The page for hardware research was down last night when i followed the link, i couldnt register.

Thanks alot for the warning on the hardware side, the best hdd is useless if it blows the power units on the snaps. So using 1.1A drives is a risk as you pointed out, but one that many people take.

Best regards

tec

[re3dyb0y]

P = VI
Watt = Volt x Amps

Watt/Volt = Amps



Yes

Correct

[blue68f100]

I'm gone for a couple of days and I have a book to read.

As far as your upgrade.

If you are currently in raid 1. Break the raid back to JBOD. All data will remain on drive 1 (10000)

Between steps 5 & 6 I would transfer any data on the original drive to the new one. Other wise every thing looks good.

ps. I'm taking a back seat. It's more fun watching.

[Phoenix32]

Well, sorta,

On the Seagate yes, it is 12V @ 1.083A average, but don't miss that AMPS PEAK right above that section with 12V @ 2.8A peak. That peak current is going to be for hard disk spin up.

On the WD, you got lost a little. They do not use an average, but give the Read/Write (close enough) as 12V @ .530A and do not give a peak (spin up) at all on that chart.

Here is the problem (some of which I mentioned before) with all of that. Different manufacturers rate different ways or show different specs so it can become confusing (as you just found out). Also, let's go back to that Seagate chart a moment, I want you to see something.

Notice on the Seagate charts that while they did rate the 80 GB and 160 GB drive a little lower than the others, all of the others are rated the same. And if you look at the 12V peak amps, you will see they all draw 2.8A. WTF is that? The 80 GB and 160 GB models have 1 platter and the 750 GB has 4 platters and they are trying to tell me they take the same current to spin up. So X mass takes the same amount of power to get moving as 4X mass. Yeah, uh huh, right. This is what I was talking about when I said they tend to rate drives from a family of drives by the highest one, but are not consistant about even that. You can be assured that it changes from 1 platter drives to 4 platter drives. You can also be assured, that just like the 80/160 changed in the average specs from the others, the 200/250/320 are different than the 400/500 and 750 due to different number of platters, both on average specs and in peak. Bottom line, hard drive specs are a rats nest.

So what's a guy to do? Well, several things, best guess, read reviews, or measure it.

For example, if I had to guess, I would say the Seagate 7200.10 models go somewhere around these specs

80/160 - 12V @ 0.71A average and 1.9A peak
200/250/320 - 12V @ 0.84A and 2.2A peak
400/500 - 12V @ 0.96A average and 2.5A peak
750 - 12V @ 1.083A average and 2.8 peak

THESE ARE GUESSES! But I bet somewhere near the right area at least. This also shows the Seagate drives do use a little more power than the Western Digital drives. This is also shown to be true in measurements in a Storage Review a while back comparing 250 Gb drives if you go here

http://www.storagereview.com/articles/200601/250_7.html


Now the reason I recommended perpendicular recording drives is because they use less platters, and thus less power. More bang for the watt sorta speak.

As for drive manufacturers, and I am SURE to get a lot of flak and disagreement here (and that's fine). I would not give you 2 cents for a Maxtor drive. Hitachi's are good drives, but can be a little picky sometimes and too expensive. Samsung has okay drives, but not something I would use when betters can be had for the same money (samsung is getting better over time though). My preferences have always been Western Digital and Seagate. Seagates tend to eat more power and thus run hotter, as well as be more expensive, nor do they last any longer than Western Digital drives. Thus, I have a tendancy to buy Western Digital drives. And for the record, these opinions are based on being in a repair facility where we replaced literaly thousands of hard disks and due to military classified info possibly being on them, had to store them in vaults for disposal done once a year. Over time, you get a feel for reliability and value. The Western Digital drives tended to be a little more reliable and a better value for the money, including the Seagates. The down side of the Western Digital's is they tend to be noisier also.

Now why do people around here always say Seagate? Well, the #1 biggest reason is the 5 year warranty. In a SNAP NAS server, it is normal for these units to run 24/7. Given this kind of use, a 5 year warranty is nice, if you actually keep the receipts and register the drives. You will also find when it comes to hard disks, it is like cars. Some people like fords and some people like chevys.

My advice, stick in a pair of 250/320 GB Seagate or Western Digital hard disks and call it good. Just know you are exceeding the power limits maybe a little and could be cutting the life of the power supply, especially if you turn it on and off a lot (spin up power remember).

[Phoenix32]

Originally Posted by blue68f100

I'm gone for a couple of days and I have a book to read.

But even you have to admit it is valid info...

[Phoenix32]

Originally Posted by blue68f100

If you are currently in raid 1. Break the raid back to JBOD.

Snicker snicker...

[teclis22]

So, just got the first 2 HDDs today.
Those are :

Seagate - 320GB ST3320620A Barracuda 7200.10 16MB/ AT100

Configured the disks of the 1st snap to single drives (equal to jbod) and started with the drive closest to the main board of the server.

Restartet the system and its now formating the new drive, wich gets recognized with 303 GB.

Formating complete. Shows me 299 GB free space. Ok time to try the 2nd drive.

i will update this post.

Regards tec

P.S: What kind of fan are you guys using ? I still have the original one inside. Any recommendations on that ? The original drives seemed warm to me when i opend the case

[teclis22]

Well.

put the next disk in (upper slot) and unit is not starting anymore. it has power, link light is lit permanently and system and disk light are blinking at the same time ..

ugh..

[blue68f100]

The top drive is the main drive in JBOD.

I always recomend the unit to start in RAID 1. This way the OS is on both drives. So now you can remove a drive.
I recommend powering down and remove the top drive and install the new drive.

When the units boots it will transfer the OS but will not mirror.
If you have data on the mirror drive. Now is the time the data transfer.
Power down and replace the lower drive.
Reboot the server.

Now you need to change the drive config back to JBOD. for 1 cycle.
Check to see if drive cap is right if not issue the secret cmd "co de format xxxxx /reinit" to correct.

If all good you can set the raid1 backup.

[teclis22]

Hi !

Ok, calling it a night for today. At the moment i have both servers in JBOD and the master drive is still an old 80 gb drive and the slave drive is the hdd bought today.

Do i have do anyhting special when reinstalling the OS ? or just use assist and fire it up ?

[blue68f100]

You will need to put the server in RAID1 if you want the snap to copy the OS on the new drive. Then power down and move the new drive to the top if it is not there allready. Then if the drive is in the top, install the second new drive in the bottom. Boot the server. The snap will copy the OS to it also. Then change back to JBOD. Check drive for capacity. It should match the old 80 gig drive. Issue the reinit cmd to both drives (10000, 10010) to get full capacity. After that you can config the drives to your liking.

Your other option is to use dd to copy the first 25 meg of the old hd to the new. Then reinit the drives. Then it is recomended to re-install the OS to make sure all of the files are there.

To install any updates Snap recommends using the web interface. I believe it is on all version 3.1 and up.