[H] WB roundup

[BillA]

lol
did some re-plumbing today and thought to count (just) the copper fittings in the flow circuit
74
this thing is outta hand !

Hi Birrman54

you gotta have a flowmeter

[Mikewarrior]

. This sounds just like when the [H] people were convinced that socket-thermistors were the end-all in temperature measurment and accuracy .


Mike

[pHaestus]

Hiya Mikewarrior; welcome to the Proforums!

Maybe not so bad as the in-socket thermistors. At least the results are valid for the exact system that Steve tested.

I had a chemistry prof that sagely divided explanations of a topic into 2 categories: (a) too good to be true, and (b) too true to be any good. I always liked getting (b); that isn't the opinion of the unwashed masses though.

[decodeddiesel]

Originally posted by Birrman54
Hey,

I'm a new member, I've been a member at [H] for a year or so now, and I've been doing watercooling for about that time.

Although I'm a big fan of the forum at [H], I'd have to agree with you all in this matter. Most (if not all) of the bannings were, IMO, uncalled for, and the review, as a technical writeup, was poor at best.

I've been working on a roundup for Socket A blocks for quite some time now (delays in the Spiral Rev2 have significantly held back its publication).

I think that my reviews will be much better in terms of thoroughness, and hopefully I'll be able to produce numbers more useable by the general public.

I'd like suggestions on how to have the highest quality results possible, I'm using a simulated heat source, that so far has shown fairly good results, it's not entirely accurate as to what an actual Athlon might produce, but it is repeatable, and as many have said the Delta T from water/cpu is more important.

I've been taking inline water temps before and after the waterblock, however, they don't seem to have produced results that are significant in any way. I was using the inline probes from Dtek attached to a compunurse. Around the heat plate (that the waterblock is clamping onto), I have 3 thermistors, and I've been taking the average of these readings.

I planned on testing for flow restrictions, but how would I go about setting up a controlled flow restrictor (a valve of some sort, I suppose) that I could use to see waterblocks performance with lower flow rates (I've been using a 1250 as well).

The heatercore is from an Escort, and the fan is a 235cfm AC fan with a shroud.

Any suggestions, please email me birrman54@subzerotech.com

Thanks a lot,

birrman54

Good to see someone switching to the dark side birrman. A warm welcome, enjoy the pro/forums

[DarkEdge]

I have problems with the banning. In the Grand ol US you can attack whoever you want with opinions, words, and in Texas weapons. I will be the first to agree that the review should of been presented better. However, why are people who attack the review banned? Free speech anyone? Attack my rig, a companies products, and a reviewers testing methodology all you want. A personal attack on the PERSON however is a diffrent thing and should get you banned. On these forums I believe that is one of the rules. If its not then I am not far off I believe.

[spinky]

Originally posted by DarkEdge
I have problems with the banning. In the Grand ol US you can attack whoever you want with opinions, words, and in Texas weapons. I will be the first to agree that the review should of been presented better. However, why are people who attack the review banned? Free speech anyone? Attack my rig, a companies products, and a reviewers testing methodology all you want. A personal attack on the PERSON however is a diffrent thing and should get you banned. On these forums I believe that is one of the rules. If its not then I am not far off I believe.

what he said. i'm a member of the [H].. and i dont really think the bans was really needed.. if things are that bad they could just lock the thread, contact you guys here and sort things out first..

i believe the [H]..pro cooling all strive to do one thing..deliver information to the readers.. nobody's perfect.. not everybody will be happy with something, but just because some are unhappy doesn't mean you have to ban em.. its just a lil over in my scale..

well i think free speech is limited in the forum cause its owned by the owner..and he can ban you and shut you up on his own forums.

[DarkEdge]

You would have to ask Joe, but I think only 1-2 people have been banned from this forum. A staff member was for a business deal gone wrong from what I heard. A reader was for some reason. Thats all I can think off the top of my head.

Controversy isn't really that big of a deal on this forum. I would say 80% of the people here come to post there system and offer ideas to people. The other part of the 80% come for those ideas and inspiration.

As for the [H]Forums...well...its bound to have full fledged arguments and attacks on people. Not only is it flooded with newbs, but it recieves far more readers. Its just what happens when you grow to that size.

If Joe and the staff have a problem with [H], you just need to post a wb review, that covers far more blocks and has testing done right. That way [H] knows whos king and learns a little at the same time.

Just my 2 cents

[BillA]

THIS is not the forum to get uppity about banning, or attacks,
or an inability to stick to the issue, or to eat crow

indeed, do ask Joe

but there is a fact of life in all forums: attack the owner and you're out

from a systemantics perspective it is clear; authority will be maintained

anarchy is a very good system - if all are reasonable
since all are not reasonable, . . .

[JWeavis]

I haven't posted much here (5 posts in 2 years), haven't read every post in this thread, and do read the [H]Forums. I am a mod on another site that deals with modding (cars) and keeping things in check is a pain in the a**. But some post just should be posted or posted in a different way and sometimes people are just more of a problem than what they're worth.

I read the review and was glad that one was done. Most people reading the [H], are people just getting into cooling/modding. Something simple like this review will bring more people into the realm of OCing and WCing. I know years ago, that's how I started.

No, the review wasn't done perfectly, but I have yet to find something quite so large of a review that has been perfect. If there is please feel free to email/post links for me. Thanks in advance.

I remember when this site was created and would come here looking for updates and reviews, but finding nothing but the latest post to the main page being weeks old.

[Joe]

There’s been a ban list that’s been bigger and smaller. I only ban people when it starts to affect the quality of the "community" here with immature banter and flame wars.

Well BillA was banned for a bit but that was more of a personal thing than anything but that was changed a while ago.

I would say since the forums were opened maybe 12 people were banned for spamming forums, purposely trying to degrade the quality of discussion, making constant in appropriate comments about others or the staff... etc...

To me its all about trying to suppress the Noise in the forum, keep good discussions flowing, keep good debates flowing.

Una was banned and that was ONLY because of his actions on the forum after that whole deal transpired, not because of the deal. ( putting a avatar of a middle finger sort of crossed the line with me ). He’s not banned anymore either.

really if someone has a legitimate bitch with me, or the site, or the staff. That’s fine with me! As long as it doesn’t turn into a flame war, I am all for a good debate. HardOCP bans people if they even hint that they are going to challenge the views of the wonder duo over there.

I think serious and sometimes powerful debates (which are on a fine line between debate and flame war) can get some pretty good things done for the community, and they are fun as heck to read

[Joe]

Originally posted by unregistered

- for sure bullshit is cheaper than testing

a sorry day for techies, understand how few we are
(and before the procoolers start patting themselves on the back, observe the abundance of Luddites here too)

opposable thumbs, indeed !!

Nice! I had the same basic saying, but it was:
"With hype who needs testing!"

There are a number of Luddites here and everywhere. Places like hardOCP wont help them see the the big picture any better. Here I think almost via osmosis they have to start getting an idea that there is more to testing than a socket thermistor.

[BillA]

well, I gave Steve something to chew on in this post

we shall see

but the response from 'the kiddies' has been predictable;
whatever technical criticisms one may have about the article, it sure was effective for their audience

Birrman54
I neglected to answer your water temp question
inlet and outlet is not useful as it will reflect the applied heat load
(i.e. the same for all wbs at that load)
what is most necessary is the wb inlet temp as that is the basis for wb comparisons
and the resolution and accuracy of this measurement will define everything else you do

EDIT: an addendum to the wb coolant inlet temp 'importance'
the problem you will encounter is maintaining the inlet at a constant 'set point'
the desireability of such is to enable the comparison of test results without numerous corrections, offsets, adjustments, etc
and its not so easy to hold the inlet temp constant even over the duration of a single test
forget not -> steady state conditions

[golovko]

I'd just like to say that I agree with what's being said in this forum, I added a post over at [H], ended it with this:

When it comes to motherboard, video card, and cpu reviews, [H]ard OCP is the place I go. When it comes to watercooling, I'll turn to the people who know what they're talking about - www.procooling.com.

[pHaestus]

I don't trust any of the large commercial websites for buying information on hardware. Even when they aren't reviewing items from the advertisers who keep their site going, they still typically get a hand-picked piece of hardware and very little time with it. If you regularly read a site you usually can pick out its bias. Some of the sites also have a much broader grasp of electronics and hardware than others. These sites may be less productive but more thorough (Ars comes to mind though they bought all their own hardware for review and so aren't the best example).

Exceptions may include sites that buy all their own hardware and actually stress test it. These sites are a dying breed though; hard to keep traffic and interest up with sporadic reviews paid for out of pocket.

Forums can be better, but their impressions on gear is also flawed. Fanboy mentalities are prevalent, and then you get a disproportionate amount of people posting with problems. This is a way to be alerted to serious flaws, but may or may not be useful. Also there is typically a pretty low signal to noise ratio in forums.

I will repeat that posting over on Hardforum isn't accomplishing anything. Read the comments from the members there:

"The people from over there already know that they are not welcome..."

You have to understand the way that large forums and websites work. No one is ever missed. Does it matter when people who are banned have been major contributors to their forum? No. The forum goes on and no one even remembers those people in a day or so.

[mfpmax]

I stopped reading reviews.

The last reviews I read were on my Antec SX635 case and my Asus Motherboard.

And they were for picture reference to see what I was getting. Did the same for my VisionTek video card...

[Dan_Dude]

Originally posted by pHaestus
I don't trust any of the large commercial websites for buying information on hardware. Even when they aren't reviewing items from the advertisers who keep their site going, they still typically get a hand-picked piece of hardware and very little time with it. If you regularly read a site you usually can pick out its bias. Some of the sites also have a much broader grasp of electronics and hardware than others. These sites may be less productive but more thorough (Ars comes to mind though they bought all their own hardware for review and so aren't the best example).

Exceptions may include sites that buy all their own hardware and actually stress test it. These sites are a dying breed though; hard to keep traffic and interest up with sporadic reviews paid for out of pocket.

Forums can be better, but their impressions on gear is also flawed. Fanboy mentalities are prevalent, and then you get a disproportionate amount of people posting with problems. This is a way to be alerted to serious flaws, but may or may not be useful. Also there is typically a pretty low signal to noise ratio in forums.

I will repeat that posting over on Hardforum isn't accomplishing anything. Read the comments from the members there:

"The people from over there already know that they are not welcome..."

You have to understand the way that large forums and websites work. No one is ever missed. Does it matter when people who are banned have been major contributors to their forum? No. The forum goes on and no one even remembers those people in a day or so.

Actualy I can think of one case where thats not true, even after over a year there comes a rare time when I wonder what AllUrBase would have done on HF

[pHaestus]

Hrm just read that thread on Hardforum, and Steve apparently has little touch with reality. He appears completely oblivious to the writing and discussion that has gone on for a year or so on both diodes and waterblock testing. I am guessing the bulk of the people at that forum never read or go to any other sites and so they will actually swallow the load of crap he is spewing.

Regarding diodes and their inherent accuracy:

I think most people can recognize that I have a fair amount of practical knowledge of internal diode on CPU and the circuits that poll them.

http://www.procooling.com/articles/h...rmal_dio.shtml

http://www.voidyourwarranty.net/revi...ode/index.php3

(sorry for the vanity but apparently with H|OCP it is required to prove you are an "authority")

Neither AMD nor Intel ever stated that the diode was an accurate measurement device suitable for testing. Neither AMD nor Intel ever claimed that the diode reading was without uncertainty. Think that Intel tests thermal performance and dissipation with real chips? ha! There are a ton of factors at the motherboard level that affect the accuracy and the linearity of internal diode readings. I have posted a link regarding such before:

http://www.smsc.com/main/anpdf/an820.pdf

Similar requirements for Winbond and Maxim ics. To think mobo mfgrs follow this is a bit naive. It is not trivial to get good quality data from a diode even with professional monitoring equipment, btw.

Intel and AMD have their internal diodes for overtemperature protection and nothing more. They work tolerably well (=/-1-3C depending on temp range), but ONLY when the reader is designed well. And calibration (not just one point) is a major concern.

One would do well to recall the issues associated with "hacking" the AMD761 chipset to read the diode. The trace length, crossovers, and thicknesses were NOT to spec, and the linearity was not good. Sure you could get it to read room temp at idle with a potentiometer adjustment, but there was NO real guarantee that it was reporting the correct temp at any other time. There is no evidence that mobo mfgrs completely redesigned their boards to fall within spec for accurate diode readings; if they did then their engineer was probably fired for wasting money.

I have played around with verification using a tc under the cpu core as per AMD tech docs; not possible with the organic chips though. In the end, it is not simple to validate and calibrate an internal diode.


Regarding BillA's experience:
Again this floors me. Perhaps Steve has honestly never seen this work?

http://www.thermal-management-testing.com
http://www.overclockers.com/articles608/

Or perhaps he blocked it out because he couldn't follow it?

Anyway, the complete ignorance on the topics that he professes "authority" on does not sit well with me. If Steve wants to posture his results as "real world testing" and "an overview without getting technical" then that is fine. But he is treading into deep waters now; carpel tunnel syndrome is a real concern if he is to ban everyone more knowedgeable than he is.

[BillA]

in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king

or just

a big fish in a little pond

but you know what pHaestus -
I'll lay you dollars to donuts hes making more money (off the internet) than we are
- so his is the last laugh

[pHaestus]

Gay porn stars make more money on the web than I do as well. That doesn't mean I am rushing off to have sweaty mansex in front of a webcam though. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

The point of money is a good one though. Nope, I dont make a living off my work on the web. Of course I can earn a decent salary with my technical background without having to keep teenagers entertained, so I don't lose much sleep over that.

You've hit the big money a few times with O/cers articles tho Bill; you are ahead of the game. Just amortize the thousands in testing gear over a long term and depreciate it accordingly. You should be able to find an Enron accountant who will work cheap where you live.

Speaking of which, did Lili come near you? Don't forget to bring the chiller inside hehe.

[jtroutma]

WOW!!

I just finished reading this thread that IMHO has exploded!
I am gone for one day and one thread can be created and jump to over 100 posts ...... is very intersting to say the least.

I am not going to even touch on the subject about this "roundup" being inacurate, mostly due to the fact that I havent even seen it yet. As to the subject about banning people for "pointing out flaws," it's been beaten so much that there is not even a horse left to beat

Personally, I have never seen the [H] forums or the whole site for that matter. Now I am wondering that if I were to head over to see what all this fuss is about and make a comment about it, I will get myself banned because I subscribe and post on this forum! That right there tells me that SOMETHING is seriously wrong with that sites administration staff.

Shesh. Guess they just nailed their own coffin shut when it comes to me considering them as an viable place to get information.

You question them; they ban you? ........ Nice approach.

[BillA]

its not quite that bad,
but the tenor of the place has become ever more 'youthful' over the years
(I would not want to suggest that I'm getting older, oh no !)

apparently one can question and disagree, but it is not a comfortable discourse
nor particularly responsive to points raised

I'm thinking someone has their reciever turned off, and no reverse gear

[BillA]

wake up call to Bill Adams
hello, hello ?

cancel my previous post, the hard (ne soft) forum just banned me too
as I was trying to respond to King Steve
so here it is (as he is obviously reading the forum-he-loves-to-hate)

quote
reality check Steve
I am not procooling, thats Joe Kelly et all
I write an occasional article for Joe Citarella, thats overclockers.com
I do not 'do' roundups or shootouts, just technical articles; product reviews are for wannabe techie websites

I have many more posts here than at procooling, so . . . ?

it seems you have a 'personality' filter you apply to technical information
give it up
a good idea knows no source

why not address the measurement uncertainty issue I've raised ?
your and procooling's enmity is not relevant
you asked for data, I gave you data



since you did not test the Innovatek (?) or the Dtek TC-4 (?) our only basis for comparison is the Swiftech MCW462-U
->> but since you do not know what your flow was, what do you know ?
well, with this pump and that rad . . . .
come on Steve, you have a single point on a curve - and you don't have a clue as to where it is

I won't trouble you with any more questions (that you decline to answer)
because I'm beginning to suspect that the whole thing is a bit beyond your technical understanding

did you notice in BrkDncr's post he repeated your totally incorrect thermo babble ?
"If a block can transfer more heat into the water"

is this helping your audience ?

be cool
end quote

hi ho
the thread was here if they did not spike it

ah Joe, who would have believed it - you and Steve are the only ones to have banned me
hmmm . . .

[pHaestus]

Bill I think he is under the (misguided) impression that you are affiliated with ProCooling.

Kinda funny considering the past between you and Joe (Kelly).

Since I know you are reading this Steve, DO check that SMSC pdf. It is from a reputable mfger and discusses the many problems with getting reliable numbers from a diode. Look at this one too:

http://pdfserv.maxim-ic.com/arpdf/MAX6657-MAX6659.pdf (page4 remote temperature error vs. remote-diode temperature).

Note that the temperature range of interest affects the error involved.

Consider the precautions ic mfgrs suggest taking to avoid serious problems in the numbers produced. Now consider that motherboard mfgrs do NOT take such precautions.

Nevin at Arctic Silver has some comments of relevance:

http://www.arcticsilver.com/diode_calibration.htm

More info on diodes can be found here from AMD and Intel:

http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/cont...docs/24309.pdf

http://www.intel.com/technology/itj/.../pdf/art_4.pdf

I mentioned my articles because I am one of a very few people on the web with any history of studying the linearity, utility, and accuracy of internal diodes. Not only that you are the one demanding people's references (that one kinda blew up on you at the Hardforums when BillA stepped up tho eh?). The Procooling article was written to hopefully save others from making mistakes in testing; it was obviously not devoured as intended.

Consider that YOU are the only person that is claiming that the diode is a perfectly accurate measurement device. Amd and Intel just use it as a failsafe at best. The IC mfgrs all point out errors and problems in making the circuits. But your setup has no such issues. And you come to ME for proof? Typically the burden of proof is on the person making outrageous claims not the other way around.

I could write an article on uncertainty calculations and what is needed to properly separate waterblock performance. It would likely also fall on deaf ears.

Regarding Procooling's ability to put together a waterblock roundup:
Unfortunately (for you) there is no law that says I can't comment on the quality of a review without doing one myself. I am not an artist either, but if one who was took a crap on a paper plate and called it sculpture I would decline to buy it. Regardless of whether this "art authority" claimed that it was a masterpiece. A position of authority isn't everything; common sense and experience counts for something.

[mfpmax]

Human interaction is the downfall of society, thats all I can say.

[72 510]

Originally posted by Joe
they changed my sig to Pro-Crying

sounds like the time I changed Beav's title to Pro-Bowler when I was a Admin at the wonderful OCZ forum he probably doesn't remember that