Anyone tried a Hayden "turbolator" rad?

[Myth]

Anyone tried or tested one of these:

http://www.haydenind.com/design.htm

If yes, I would really like to hear about it before i order one from the US (I live Denmark and it will be expensive )

[AngryAlpaca]

Why not just get a heater core? I know you have those.

[Myth]

I've got plenty of those.. It's the design of the hayden's i hoped would improve cooling..

[jaydee]

Our standard design of copper tubing with aluminum fins optimizes effectiveness based on BTUs per dollar.

Our aluminum turbulator within 3/4"

Eeeek......................

[Myth]

hmm think i missed that part :-(

[sandman]

just take the aluminum deal out, anodize it, and run with like 20% antifreeze. No big deal.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by sandman

just take the aluminum deal out, anodize it, and run with like 20% antifreeze. No big deal.

It doesn't just "come out". Very big deal.

[8-Ball]

Not without completely desoldering the rad and taking it apart, at which point, you may as well just make your own.

As I understand it, they don't really perform any better than a heater core. I "believe" their goal was to get the most out of a design which can cope with the high pressures of automotive oil cooling.

8-ball

[krazy]

The turbulator part is mechanically expanded (according to their site) once placed within the tubing, so it will not come out at all.

Usually, they do this by sending an oversized ball bearing through that center channel with compressed air.

The design looks like it's not a good solution for low pressure low flow operations like PC watercooling.

[sandman]

Originally Posted by jaydee116

It doesn't just "come out". Very big deal.

My bad, I didn't read close enough.

[SysCrusher]

They have one with copper turbulators. In my opinion, this is just what you want for a rad. Better performance than any other rad you can find. I'v been using one for a transmission cooler in 68 Impala Custom with a beafed up TH400. Cools better than anything else I'v used. Question is - Do they make anything close to what we use for a rad with those copper turbulators?

[SysCrusher]

Originally Posted by 8-Ball

Not without completely desoldering the rad and taking it apart, at which point, you may as well just make your own.

As I understand it, they don't really perform any better than a heater core. I "believe" their goal was to get the most out of a design which can cope with the high pressures of automotive oil cooling.

8-ball

I would have to dis-agree 8-ball. Works just the same as a water block. Same principles apply. The rads we use are of poor performance and not efficient at all. There will be laminar flow through those tubes which results in the bulk of the water to never see contact with the copper walls to transfer heat. The water that actually does contact the walls will transfer its heat and then pick up heat from the surrounding water. Then to pass through the loop once again to pick up heat in the water block never to be cooled efficiently. Introduce the turbulators and there will be more water in contact with the copper walls. Increase in heat transfer with the expense of some restriction but not enough to be concerned about. The performance gain will out weigh the restriction. The temperature at which equilibrium will occur will be lower. A rad with a lower C/W will aways perform better.

It's all about getting more water molecules to be in contact with the copper walls before that water leaves the rad. More flow helps but more flow alone isn't going to help much when you have laminar flow within a rad.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by SysCrusher

They have one with copper turbulators. In my opinion, this is just what you want for a rad. Better performance than any other rad you can find.

Prove it and it will not be an opinion. Opinions are getting us no where.

[psychofunk]

Mybe I am reading it wrong but what difference does copper tubing with aluminum fins make. We are talking about copper touching the water not the aluminum. The fins are attached to the outside of the copper tubes and aluminum is used because alum works better at dispersing the heat into the air (copper absorbs better and alum cools better <-- refering to the metal-I am pretty sure that is right). Also their Trans T Turbulator is all copper. If you look at their fin cool design and their swirl flow turbolaters it looks damn genius to me (only prob is the swirl flow is alum) and you waterblock gurus can make some copper swirl flow turbulators. It seems like a huge waterblock which I bet would be great at pulling heat from the water. Only problem is I don't know what it would do to flow and because this water cooling is like super lotto it is anyone guess what would happen to temps but it all looks cool to me. Makes me think about making a rad, forget the wb's. Imagine what could be done?

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by psychofunk

Mybe I am reading it wrong but what difference does copper tubing with aluminum fins make. We are talking about copper touching the water not the aluminum. The fins are aluminum because alum works better at dispersing the heat (copper absorbs better and alum cools better <-- refering to the metal-I am pretty sure that is right). Also their Trans T Turbulator is all copper. If you look at their fin cool design and their swirl flow turbolaters it looks damn genius to me (only prob is the swirl flow is alum) and you waterblock gurus can make some copper swirl flow turbulators. It seems like a huge waterblock which I bet would be great at pulling heat from the water. Only problem is I don't know what it would do to flow and because this water cooling is like super lotto it is anyone guess what would happen to temps but it all looks cool to me. Makes me think about making a rad, forget the wb's. Imagine what could be done?

Just do it. A heater core setup right can get your water temps to 1-2C over ambient for $20. Is it worth the effort? How much is to gain? :shrug:

[psychofunk]

Originally Posted by jaydee116

Just do it. A heater core setup right can get your water temps to 1-2C over ambient for $20. Is it worth the effort? How much is to gain? :shrug:

Wow 1-2c? That good huh. Man my water cooling really sucks then . Do you think that effeniencey could be improved trough design so that they could be made smaller? Realistically this is beyond me but I am curious and it seems cool especially since blocks can't get much better then they are already.

[Butcher]

Copper and Al have identical convective performance - the whole copper holds heat better etc. etc. stuff is all a myth. Copper is generally better for two reasons - the rest of the components are copper, so less change of corrosion. Copper has higher conductivity so the heat can spread down the fins more easily, which enhances convection by pspreading the heat over a greater area.

[psychofunk]

hmmmmmmm! So then the only reason alum is ever used is because it is cheaper?

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by psychofunk

Wow 1-2c? That good huh. Man my water cooling really sucks then . Do you think that effeniencey could be improved trough design so that they could be made smaller? Realistically this is beyond me but I am curious and it seems cool especially since blocks can't get much better then they are already.

Sure they can, but who is going to spend the millions to design it and re-tool a shop to produce it for a small time thing called water cooling PC's? They would never make their money back.

Also it is all about airflow. There is only 100-120watts in the hottest systems. Heater Cores can easily handle that. It is all about installation. If you want a quiet computer then un-overclock it and turn the fan down and deal with 50C load temps. If you want performance dump 150CFM through the rad and deal with the noise. Simple as that. Trade off to everything you do.

[SysCrusher]

Originally Posted by jaydee116

Just do it. A heater core setup right can get your water temps to 1-2C over ambient for $20. Is it worth the effort? How much is to gain? :shrug:

LOL Prove it? I didn't think I need to with this crowd since they so understand the concepts just as your self jaydee. 1-2C over ambient? with what? CPU only and not overclocked? Add in a gpu, maybe a hot running NB, even tec use and I doubt you will ever see 1 - 2C over ambient water temps with the rads we use. They were not designed to be efficient at water cooling. Just enough to heat a small space with water temps at 82 to 93C. Doesn't take much to do that.

Then the statement about fans? You can only do so much with a fan. Their is a point of diminishing returns with a fan. If your rad is not efficient, a fan pushing 200 cfm with a decent pressure rating isn't going to make a difference. I can prove you that with a delta 120x38mm pushing 130cfm@ 12V versus half that cfm with 7V. You can only push so much air through a rad. The performance levels off.

Money? Sure but what is worth to you? For me to have 1-2C over ambient water or at ambient temps with an over heated setup at a decent price, it's worth it. Think about it. No one has even made any advance with a rad. Not even the commercial vendors who are just copying a small version of the heatercore and calling it the next grand thing. Sometimes I just get a laugh as I set back watching and say to myself, "Told you so". How many more times will you amuse me jaydee? Your almost as fun as Ben. But you know jaydee? I just might prove you wrong if no one or a commercial vendor doesn't beat me to it.

Who ever it was with the Al Cu thing. Only reason they use Al is for cost reasons. Copper turbulators versus Aluminum turbulators doesn't make a difference when all they are for is just to introduce turbulance to maximize convection. Copper is better in this case simply based on the corrosion factor.

[Butcher]

Originally Posted by psychofunk

hmmmmmmm! So then the only reason alum is ever used is because it is cheaper?

And lighter.

[SysCrusher]

Originally Posted by jaydee116

Sure they can, but who is going to spend the millions to design it and re-tool a shop to produce it for a small time thing called water cooling PC's? They would never make their money back.

Don't need to spend that much. Just a simple 10gauge copper wire coil inside tight against the copper walls will do.

Originally Posted by jaydee116

so it is all about airflow. There is only 100-120watts in the hottest systems. Heater Cores can easily handle that. It is all about installation. If you want a quiet computer then un-overclock it and turn the fan down and deal with 50C load temps. If you want performance dump 150CFM through the rad and deal with the noise. Simple as that. Trade off to everything you do.

All about airflow? since when? If it was all about air flow, then why is there advancements made in water blocks? Rad is the same thing. Maximizing convection via water to copper will allow less cfm's to be used if you so want to go that route. 1 - 2C in water temps is a 1 -2C change in cpu temps and it''s not all about airflow.

[Butcher]

SysCrusher, I can get my system's water temp down to 1-2C over ambient with cpu (overclocked), gpu and chipset being cooled with a standard heatercore. I have a 172mm fan sucking air through which is 235cfm at full speed - I need to run it at a little over half to achieve 2C over ambient. All it takes is a decent fan - you'll never get the sort of performance a decent 172x50mm fan gives with 120mm fans, thickness and a more powerful motor really help when cooling something as restrictive as a heatercore.

[SysCrusher]

Originally Posted by Butcher

SysCrusher, I can get my system's water temp down to 1-2C over ambient with cpu (overclocked), gpu and chipset being cooled with a standard heatercore. I have a 172mm fan sucking air through which is 235cfm at full speed - I need to run it at a little over half to achieve 2C over ambient. All it takes is a decent fan - you'll never get the sort of performance a decent 172x50mm fan gives with 120mm fans, thickness and a more powerful motor really help when cooling something as restrictive as a heatercore.

Yeah, no kidding. I bet that is with a compunurse too? I use a 120x38 at 130cfm delta at 12V, at 7V there is hardly a change. I agree though, thicker fans generally produce more pressure to be able to push or pull that much more cfm through a restriction like a rad. Now use a rad that maximises convection to it's fullest and you won't need that noise maker at full speed.

I doubt my point is made yet. I'll just sit back and watch just like every other time. LOL

[SysCrusher]

Originally Posted by Butcher

And lighter.

It also allows more surface area per weight versus copper.