Article at Geeksonline

[firtol88]

Originally Posted by modenaf1

I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky

Hey, it's Slick Willy, I wondered what you would do after you finnished your book. sorry had to...

My word man you sure are one for semantics aren't you. We just have different views on how things should be done , no worries as long as that's known.

[AngryAlpaca]

I can understand where you are coming from here, but if sevral people on random forums, lets call it person A on forum X and person b on forum y. If both person A and B said something you did not like about your blocks perhaps inacurate, but maybe accurate under their testing situation, would you refuse to send a block to review to the front page of forum X and forum Y? Just think about it.

It's been proven by three calibrated sources that I know of. Bill Adams (unregistered) has been doing the best testing for a long time (ever, as far as I'm concerned) and he knows what he is talking about. With an Athlon the MCW6000 is superior at all flow rates from 0.5GPM to 2.5GPM by quite a large margin, and I'd imagine that the results stay the same with other processors based upon theory and probably testing.

He's not worried about the results (unless they directly contradict his and they refuse to acknowledge that they may be wrong) as long as the system is accurate and they show some skill. This guy also seems to have an attitude that he knows all about watercooling, but for some reason his article is lacking in accuracy in a lot of places.

1.) Just using that as an example, (I have done my homework on this ) the Maze 4 is relatively free flowing and it really does not require a 300+GPH pump. Perhaps the RBX does not "Require" a 300+ GPH pump, but it is very heavily recomended that you have a strong pump for a fairly restrictive block. How many people buy RBX's and put a 66GPH pump with 1 inch head on it? I am exagerating, but you get the point.

He should really clarify that statement as GPH has little to do with restriction. That statement should be along the lines of, "The Maze 4 only has 3.3" H2O of restriction at 1GPM, so a much weaker pump can be used without a problem, while the RBX has about 5 times that, and so your pump decision should reflect that" He'd also have to explain the restriction at some point.

2.) High praise towards your swifty block eh?

Damned straight. www.procooling.com shows it's a damned good block on a calibrated setup. I do not know where your guy is getting his numbers from, as the MCW6002 beats all others at lower flow rates and as certainly as good as the others at higher ones.

I think that was clearly his opinion, and he said it seems, not it DID. Seems could be in maybe 1 test it performed better, perhaps in 10 tests it performed better? Maybe it performed better with a stronger pump? A weaker pump? In a waterchiller setup? With a pelt? With a pentium2 throwing off 20 thermal watts? With an overclocked presscott throwing off 175 thermal watts?

He should clarify this too. We want sources when it contradicts our accurate information. pHaestus does different flow rates, so unless you're using ultra low end (less than 0.5 GPM, really bad pump) or ultra high end (more than 2.5GPM, several hundred dollar pump...) pumps, that's covered. A chiller won't make a difference as the delta T will remain the same, and neither will crack or whatever. Wattage also will not make a difference, although core size may in both of those cases. However, the theory (as I understand it) should still place the MCW 6002 above even with peltiers...

Send him a link and let him get involved.

[HammerSandwich]

Originally Posted by modenaf1

Maybe it performed better with a stronger pump? A weaker pump? In a waterchiller setup? With a pelt? With a pentium2 throwing off 20 thermal watts? With an overclocked presscott throwing off 175 thermal watts?

There are too many variables. Maybe with high heat CPUs (this is an example) the 5000 performs better, or low low low heat CPUs the 5000 performs better.

If block performance is so dependent on system variables (which it almost always is), then simply ranking the blocks on a 100-pt scale is inadequate. After reading a guide to block selection, we shouldn't have to speculate about which blocks suit which systems.

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca

That statement should be along the lines of, "The Maze 4 only has 3.3" H2O of restriction at 1GPM, so a much weaker pump can be used without a problem, while the RBX has about 5 times that, and so your pump decision should reflect that"

Even that can be misleading, because it ignores the RBX's much stronger cooling vis-a-vis flow rate. (And it resembles JoeC's comments that irritate Cathar so... )

[BillA]

Quote (by me):
just lost a lengthy response and am bummed, will take another pass tomorrow
Quote (by you):
Don't bother, you clarified perfectly what I need to know. Thank you.

modenaf1
you may not wish to hear me, but I shall speak nonetheless

Websites exist for many reasons, some proffer tech 'info' to the public and exist on ad revenues, donations, etc. Component mfgrs soon identified these sites seeking readers as a means of promoting awareness/sales of their products by what is referred to as the 'review' process. Some of these 'reviews' are keyboard based, some are into photographs, some do half-assed testing, some do accurate testing. Naturally, they all claim to have experience, the best tools, proven methods, and they walk on water in their spare time.

You seem to be laboring under the delusion that mfgrs dislike criticism of their products, and that all objections must be based on the critical comments made. Get over that issue, a good idea knows no source. If another set of eyes reveal a problem, such should be addressed. For sure, some mfgrs with the NIH syndrome will take umbrage, but others will hop to the fix. But criticism should be based on FACTS.

Your defense of some uninformed comments was to claim that as an article, unfounded unsubstantiated assertions were ok, the license your site grants to its writers. Now I, representing Swiftech, did assert that the comments are factually incorrect; to which you blandly respond that you are not knowledgeable and such issues should be addressed to the author or some of the others on your staff (? on your forums ? - not sure). Are these not the same fools sitting in silence wrt that article ? Cut me some slack, I should debate with such ?

Now I, as a mfgr, will evaluate your site, and look at the 'work' of some of your reviewers. But wait, if there is no editorial oversight then how is accuracy understood ? Your site is like so many others, a crap shoot. As another mfgr stated here, you send them out and wait to see what happens - good or bad.

Such is not Swiftech's approach, we excise technically inept sites from those to whom we will provide review samples. We make products that work, and a new model WILL be superior to a previous one, even if your writer falsely claims the opposite without providing a shred of substantiation.

modenaf1
If you wish review samples: Have an engineer (the proposed author) describe to me the setup and procedures to be used. Rocket Science not required, just honesty.

[wshost.Shorty]

im a mod at xoxideforumnetwork...and thats where that guy "regulates". He doesnt even own a wcing system :/

[modenaf1]

Darn one of my posts seems to have disapeared. Hmm...oh well. Maybe I will post later. It was a long one too. I know how ya feel unregistered

Originally Posted by wshost.Shorty

im a mod at xoxideforumnetwork...and thats where that guy "regulates". He doesnt even own a wcing system :/

Ahahahahahahaha

I am a member at Xoxide forums, AZNmodder is or was a moderator there too. He also posted plenty of pictures of his watercooled rig, and trust me, this is bullshit...he has a water cooled rig. I am sure of that lmao.

[redleader]

Where do the numbers for the performance comparision come from?

[modenaf1]

Originally Posted by redleader

Where do the numbers for the performance comparision come from?

To tell you the truth....I am hardly in charge of the front page even....I am not the one to ask. Perhaps I could persuade the editor or another staff member to answer questions on this.

[wshost.Shorty]

Originally Posted by modenaf1

Darn one of my posts seems to have disapeared. Hmm...oh well. Maybe I will post later. It was a long one too. I know how ya feel unregistered



Ahahahahahahaha

I am a member at Xoxide forums, AZNmodder is or was a moderator there too. He also posted plenty of pictures of his watercooled rig, and trust me, this is bullshit...he has a water cooled rig. I am sure of that lmao.

He does not have a wcing system. His system is aircooled. Dont bullshit. He has also only posted pics of his rig once. And it was the ugliest thing I have ever seen.

http://xoxideforums.com/showthread.php?t=21110

Doesnt really help because the pics are down, but read the comments.

[AngryAlpaca]

Premods? Not bad, not bad. Looks very bright.

LMAO premods...

They don't mention a watercooling system but rather his colourful fans.

I did a small OC on it. Very hot... 57*C after 2 runs on prime95

I sure as hell hope he isn't running WC...

Oh well, it doesn't really matter. He seems to know everything about watercooling anyway.

[modenaf1]

http://xoxideforums.com/showthread.php?t=21110

Not that rig....... and no I am not bullshitting. I swear this d00d had a watercooled rig. oh well..

[Geeks Online]

Greetings ProCooling.com Members,
First off, the Geeks Online staff would like to apologize for the quality and information presented in our last article, Water Cooling Basics II. The author of this article is no longer affiliated with Geeks Online. The Editor was un-aware of the false information presented in the article until it was brought to our attention by the members here at Pro Cooling, as well as other people around the watercooling community. We would like to thank those of you who took the time to critique the article and bring it to our attention. Again, the Geeks Online staff sends its sincerest apologies to any and all of you who have taken offense to the article. In the past Geeks Online has brought you informative and accurate articles, as we plan to in the future.

In addition, the author should be arriving here shortly to defend his points.

Thank You,
Matt (mdcomp) and Kevin (fenix)
Owners/Administrators of Geeks Online

[AngryAlpaca]

VICTORY IS OURS!!! Thank you very much.

[greenman100]

Originally Posted by AZMmodder on xoxide forum

yea its really useful in pulling heat off the capacitors and stuff

LOL

dunno about him, but my capacitors should be watercooled!

hah not

[Etacovda]

Originally Posted by Geeks Online

Greetings ProCooling.com Members,
First off, the Geeks Online staff would like to apologize for the quality and information presented in our last article, Water Cooling Basics II. The author of this article is no longer affiliated with Geeks Online. The Editor was un-aware of the false information presented in the article until it was brought to our attention by the members here at Pro Cooling, as well as other people around the watercooling community. We would like to thank those of you who took the time to critique the article and bring it to our attention. Again, the Geeks Online staff sends its sincerest apologies to any and all of you who have taken offense to the article. In the past Geeks Online has brought you informative and accurate articles, as we plan to in the future.

In addition, the author should be arriving here shortly to defend his points.

Thank You,
Matt (mdcomp) and Kevin (fenix)
Owners/Administrators of Geeks Online

Nice! thanks a lot for that; great to see it not erupt into another liquid3d battle...

This is exactly what is needed from sites; thanks again.

[redleader]

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca

VICTORY IS OURS!!! Thank you very much.

No need to gloat!

Geeks Online:

Thanks for your prompt answer to this thread.

[Geeks Online]

Your welcome.

As for the author coming here, I don't know where he is.
:shrug:
As he told me he would make an appearance. I do know he is working on both parts of the articles as we speak, trying to cite sources. He posted his sources/notes for part 1 of the article here: http://forums.geeksonline.org/viewtopic.php?t=1005 , if anyone is interested. As always, Geeks Online appreciates your feedback. I beleive he is working on part 2, I will try and get him to post that here. Thanks.

Matt (mdcomp)
Geeks Online
Administrator/Owner

[jaydee]

Free technical editing... Sounds familiar... Maybe ProCooling Staff should be charging for the service...

[Geeks Online]

Originally Posted by jaydee116

Free technical editing... Sounds familiar... Maybe ProCooling Staff should be charging for the service...

Hehe.

I just want to make sure the expert watercoolers here at Pro Cooling approve, thats all. Thanks.

Matt (mdcomp)
Geeks Online
Administrator/Owner

[BillA]

hey Matt

don't know that we (can) approve (of) anything here,
but we sure can complain

Thanks for the effort to sort that article out
Bill Adams

[AngryAlpaca]

Time for the great long bash.

(if they argue with this then that’s unfortunate check wcing101 if you really want proof that watercooling is superior to aircooling).

This guy doesn't seem to understand that "watercooling" isn't a single product, as this statement just proved. There are thousands of products out there and some are better and some are worse.

(check ocforums on the listing on peoples overclocks most water beat air on the same system)

See above.

(xoxide sells wcing kits for less then 175 if you don’t think they exist but if I had 175 I could still make a MUCH better wcing kit out of maze 4 or TC-4 so this is only an example)

Yeah a shit system, probably. Got proof of the TC-4 performance?

(to my knowledge all waterblocks that are modern and especially modern retail ones have “barbs” in which the water comes in and out as well even though ive seen some crazy custom alternatives however you can visit dangerden or dtek and look at the barbs).

"quick connects"

The inside is usually designed to allow high water flow (when the water stops it will probably heat up and the cpu will fry eventually unless you have some convection action like a heatpipe also higher flow crashing into the walls of the waterblock means more turbulence and higher flow means u can add more blocks to the chain) and a lot of water turbulence (when water crashes on the sides of the inside of the waterblock and bounces off abck into the water and goes everywhere everytime it hits the wall it has slightly more pressure then if it just flowed by therefore more water atoms touch the walls of the waterblock which means more heat is transferred from the conductive amterial to the water) to allow for maximum cooling (more cooling is better I think).

Turbulence is frequently the opposite of higher flow. Turbulence reduces flow while flow increases turbulence. Is it true that turbulence increases pressure?

While it is true there is a threshold in which water flow is to fast and hurts the performance this is usually not achieved and why do you think systems with a pump like hydor L30 beat systems that are identical in every way except they use hydor L20)

And where is this point of too much flow? Hmm... Is it, maybe, never?

(when you get a pump with higher gph overall the whole cycle will speed up and the water will flow through faster and I consider these pumps OVERALL to be better with some exceptions).

With a higher overall flow of course the water will flow faster... Nice one, dumbass.

Even though silver is a better choice of material silver tends to cost slightly more).

Slightly more? Who here is a multibillionaire?

No matter how much you sand a cpu surface or waterblock theres always microscopic cracks even on polarFlo’s SF waterblock which has an optical finish.)

It seems that most blocks are visible in the light spectrum, unfortunately.

good bases are shiny (shiny means less microscopic cracks and smaller cracks which means less areas which the heat can’t come out of even though thermal paste fills most of these cracks))

Finish versus flatness... Shiny means just that, that it's shiny.

(ive seen these roles reversed however they do not get as good temperatures)

Proof?

(because the water splits this hurts the water flow quite a lot as seen in RBX’s restriction. It gets worst with a nozzle like nozzle 5 however if you have a good pump then use nozzle 5 by all means because you will get better performance usually).

Less restriction (doubling the surface area through which to flow) equals a more restrictive block?

(well I suppose theres some insane alternative that I haven’t figured out yet however the majority of the watercooling systems use a pump such as eheim 1250).

Have you heard of natural convection? It's what most things are cooled by.

(gph,size,barb size, noise, how its powered, I consider that there are many, even more the the ones I listed).

He missed the most important one! How could you miss pressure?!

(this is America I use gallons and I explain the effect of having head in a few sentancese later but I consider flow rate>head).

I love blowjobs. I dunno... Cool computer or a blowjob... Hmm...

(if you go higher then this usually the water flows to quickly to absorb a good amount of heat and the pump will usually add heat to the water if its this powerful).

It flows too quickly to pick up heat? I'd imagine that Tornados move the air too quickly to cool processors...

Also, a side importance is the Head amount, or how far the water can spray going straight up (in watercooling terms that is what head means. Howfar the water can go straight up before if stops. I measure this in feet).

Not quite. It's how much back pressure (feet of water is the norm for measuring pump head) the pump can push against, or how high the column of water in a tube straight above the outlet can be before the pump stops moving water.

(this pump would throw out a lot of water but it could only go up 2 feet before it stops so that’s usually not good especially in a tall full tower)

It would throw out very little water because it couldn't overcome the back pressure of the system. In a closed loop (most that we use are closed) the vertical height matters little.

Some really strong pumps actually add heat to the water which is very bad (like eheim 1260).

Name a SINGLE pump that doesn't and I'll give you a cookie and stop insulting your stupidity.

This usually (keyword) occurs in pumps that are over 500 GPH (pumps lower then 500 gph like eheim 1250 don’t add heat to the water flow however the keyword here is usually).

WTF?!

(one of my friends who knows a lot more about watercooling than me {edited for stupidit})

Anyone? Please, be more specific.

and allows the water to sit idle and cool off a bit before re-entering the cycle[b] (it doesn’t do a very good job however).

That's not the purpose at all.

(the flow slows down when it enters the large body of water until it gets to the other barb where it accelerates a little however it loses some kenetic energy for potential energy therefore it wont flow quite as fast)

Normally, we measure water movement in flow, not speed. Each to his own (stupid, in your case) measurements.

[(yields better temperatures according to wcing101

Proof please.[/quote]This also bleeds much better (see comparisons on forums) and does not hinder your flow (same size all the way through means the water doesn’t lose its speed).[/quote] Proof and see above.

however you might want to add more substances to ensure maximum performance (antifreeze or waterwetter or zerex all stop the fun green living stuff from growing in ur computer).

It doesn't quite add performance as much as remove it.

(research on ocforums what happens when u change the orders…quite a big temperature difference

Proof. That doesn't agree with any testing I've seen.

Pump>Radiator>CPU block>GPU or northbridge block (both optional)>any other watercooling blocks you have such as HDD or ram>reservoir or t-line (t-line should be at highest point of the system if possible)>pump. (this is arguable however if you want I can type approx 1 page paper on why I think this is the best order)

I'd bet that this page wouldn't have one useful and/or accurate sentence in it... I'd like it see it anyway.

(keep in mind that this is forum nubbins so if u wanna get into the advanced arguments then by all means I can whip out t3h physics of watercooling)

If you want to learn anything about watercooling, "nubbins," consider forums.procooling.com as you might learn something that is accurate or at least close.

It's amazing that he's so bad at satire that he makes mistakes while doing it. Can someone post this on that forum for me?

[Geeks Online]

Thanks for the feedback, AngryAlpaca.
Since he no longer represents the site, I left it in his format. It is not in the best of taste in my opinion, but it is his own. He attempted to do something, he spent a long time on it.

Matt

[modenaf1]

I changed my mind about this post. Please delete it, thank you.

[AngryAlpaca]

I started to read the guy's response and it's incredibly stupid... Not worth a read, nonetheless a reply.

[#Rotor]

I am indeed #Rotor/3Rotor... I knew it was going to confuse someone ... eventually.... HEHEHE....
the short version.... My nick comes from me being a rotary freak, Sowy I started the 3Rotor nick in my Quake 2 (Action mod) days, from there some forums did not like me using a digit as the first char in my nick, so I switched to the # because it still is the same key... there you have it...