What about internal pics of the storm? - Page 5

Cathar · 09-30-2004, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etacovda

http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...5&pagenumber=7

Seems hes been around (and hassling cathars work) for some time.

The link he provided is now dead, but I remember it well. It was some excellent research work on free jet impingement onto bare dies. Didn't really apply to what I was doing though, but the content of the link was excellent.

Jag · 09-30-2004, 03:18 AM

Cathar isn't a first timer. He knows the drills.
He doesn't want to go all over the same story, as he did with the previous blocks.

Restraint is allways good.

No, I don't consider this forum the long arm of Swiftech (market).

When people is found to be a troll, give him a one way ticket, all o.k.

It´s not about the individual (he is judged by his own attitudes and in this case writings), but the nations they're from.

There are good and bad people. Their countries are something apart. Most of the times their respective governments, take actions which aren't in consent with their nationals.
So why sticking a label on them?

I don´t intend or even presume to judge you BIll Adams.
Just "looking" at you and you seem to have one hand for handshakes and in the other a big hammer, or a bazooka.
People don't know sometimes which one you're going to use, that's all.

As for Cathar, I just want to say that your wife was right all along - you've suceeded. My congratulations to your work.

jaydee · 09-30-2004, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unregistered

feel free to regard me and my actions in the light that is pleasing to you
you may think that procooling is the Swiftech market, if so you are wrong
procooling represents the lunatic fringe of watercooling, balls to the wall
few of the Swiftech products actually fit the 'needs' of this group - but obviously I am changing that
both by improved products, AND by education - which I presume will have a trickle down effect
Marketing is not my responsibility, though as a product designer I cannot ignore it

I had a huge post written up but I decided against it. What I will say is this:

The knowledge I have gained by unregistered and Cathar over the last 3 years is simply priceless. How much did I have to pay for all this engineering consulting? Absolutely nothing. We should all be very appreciative that they actually take time out of thier day to post in these forums. We should be appreciative that pH takes time out of his life to give us decent water block results and take the time to share his experience in that quest to do it better.

What is their reward sometimes for this? They get called biased and on the take... Yet they are still here and they are still learning and teaching us what they learn. I hope unregistered's trickle down effect theory is working because there is a hell of a lot to be learned on this site. I got thousands of posts here and read the site everyday yet I have absorbed a small fraction of the info available.

unregistered schooled me on rad design recently and what was one of his sources for this? Cathar! I learned more about rad design in the last 3 days than I have in the last 4 years of water cooling and it is largely thanks to unregistered and Cathar willingness to share their knowledge.

I will leave it at that...

greenman100 · 09-30-2004, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaydee116

I had a huge post written up but I decided against it. What I will say is this:

The knowledge I have gained by unregistered and Cathar over the last 3 years is simply priceless. How much did I have to pay for all this engineering consulting? Absolutely nothing. We should all be very appreciative that they actually take time out of thier day to post in these forums. We should be appreciative that pH takes time out of his life to give us decent water block results and take the time to share his experience in that quest to do it better.

What is their reward sometimes for this? They get called biased and on the take... Yet they are still here and they are still learning and teaching us what they learn. I hope unregistered's trickle down effect theory is working because there is a hell of a lot to be learned on this site. I got thousands of posts here and read the site everyday yet I have absorbed a small fraction of the info available.

unregistered schooled me on rad design recently and what was one of his sources for this? Cathar! I learned more about rad design in the last 3 days than I have in the last 4 years of water cooling and it is largely thanks to unregistered and Cathar willingness to share their knowledge.

I will leave it at that...

I'm in total agreenment.

did I miss the "schooling" thread, or was it over PM/email?

Incoherent · 09-30-2004, 04:01 PM

So, back on thread topic, are there any picture's of the Storm internals anywhere yet?
Apart from the middle plate and fuzzy base pictures Cather has posted. Not harassing your picture taking skills Cather, I know how bizarrely machined copper treats light, it's just I am gibbering with curiosity.
Please point me in the right direction if so.

jaydee · 09-30-2004, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenman100

I'm in total agreenment.

did I miss the "schooling" thread, or was it over PM/email?

Pretty much this thread: http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=10583 A little behind the scenes as well.

Cathar · 09-30-2004, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incoherent

Not harassing your picture taking skills Cather, I know how bizarrely machined copper treats light.

Oh, I knew exactly what I was doing with the camera and the light.

I have clearer pictures, however I'm getting all excited about picking up the silver G5 prototypes early next week.

Yeah, I'll post something soon enough. Sorry for frustrating people's curiosity. Still very busy prepping and assembling blocks. Should be finished with all that in 5 days and then I'll have the G5's to play with, and while bored I'll write something up with piccies.

BillA · 09-30-2004, 04:16 PM

"Oh, I knew exactly what I was doing with the camera and the light."
lol
the master manipulator ?

Cathar · 09-30-2004, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unregistered

lol
the master manipulator ?

Would one admit to it?

BillA · 09-30-2004, 04:38 PM

I would ask 'to what' ?
behaviorism works, so are we all

Incoherent · 09-30-2004, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathar

Oh, I knew exactly what I was doing with the camera and the light.

You bastard.

Cathar · 09-30-2004, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incoherent

You bastard.

OK, since you asked so nicely I'll let you chew on this for a bit.

bigben2k · 09-30-2004, 08:04 PM

Ha ha ha ha ha (darn 10 characters...)

jaydee · 09-30-2004, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathar

OK, since you asked so nicely I'll let you chew on this for a bit.

Why is there little black dots in the center of the cups? Non flat bottom?

BillA · 09-30-2004, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigben2k

Ha ha ha ha ha (darn 10 characters...)

ditto
10 characters bah (how many times will we have to complain about this ?)

satanicoo · 09-30-2004, 10:05 PM

Well if those are holes on the cups i have never thought on that.
But if they are pins...

pHaestus · 09-30-2004, 10:09 PM

what are the odds that I would have a better pic than the mfgr? Pretty slim. My digicam got stolen last week in the second breakin since March for my house. ****ing teenagers. Buying a new 4 or 5 Mpixel cam soon though

BalefireX · 09-30-2004, 10:21 PM

I could swear that Michael Moore told me that Canada was so safe that everyone left their doors unlocked... he wouldn't lie to promote his political agenda...would he?

It did look like there were pins in the center in that original blurry picture, and seeing this second one I am even more convinced... not sure of the shape though; cones? pyramids?

greenman100 · 09-30-2004, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pHaestus

what are the odds that I would have a better pic than the mfgr? Pretty slim. My digicam got stolen last week in the second breakin since March for my house. ****ing teenagers. Buying a new 4 or 5 Mpixel cam soon though

12 guage fixes that

Cathar · 09-30-2004, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pHaestus

what are the odds that I would have a better pic than the mfgr?

I do have better pictures sitting here.

jaydee · 09-30-2004, 10:58 PM

Just a rough guess, but being the black dots (shadows) are slightly off centered due to a slight camera angle it leads me to believe there is a small pin in the middle of the hole. If there was a hole in the center of the cups the shadow would remain in the middle no matter the camera angle. Just speculation though. Could just be an odd reflection.

But if there is a pin I would be very interested to know if it stuck up inside the jet tube a bit. I do doubt this is the case though as I remember Cathar stating the holes were not precision drilled. Then again if the jet hole was big enough and the pin small enough the holes wouldn't need to be to perfect.

Problem with this theory is it removes the jet impingement effect. During the Cascade development I remember a flat bottom was optimal for jet impingement to work at it's best. maybe the pin sticking up into the nozzel adds enough volocity to make up for this and then some though?

Bah, to much specualtion. I will wait until we know for sure whats going on in there.

Cathar · 10-01-2004, 12:14 AM

You're on the right track jaydee. In jet impingement on a flat surface, what's occurring at the absolute dead center of where the jet strikes the base?

BTW - I no longer really consider the Cascade to be a true impingement design. It's really more of a super-turbulent mash design, along the lines of its origin, being that of a faucet at full blast inside the mouth of a tall deep cup.

The problems I faced with jet impingement (JI) after a lot of experimentation was that the Cascade-style mashing worked out best, mostly due to the sheer density of jets/cups that is achievable with the Cascade approach. Making the cups wider and giving enough room to allow for true impingement made things worse, and peak overclock and temperatures dropped away as the convectional gradient is less consistent across the base of the cups.

What you're seeing in the picture is an attempt to solve the inherent drawbacks to jet impingement across a large flat surface.

Incoherent · 10-01-2004, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathar

You're on the right track jaydee. In jet impingement on a flat surface, what's occurring at the absolute dead center of where the jet strikes the base?
...The problems I faced with jet impingement (JI) after a lot of experimentation was that the Cascade-style mashing worked out best, mostly due to the sheer density of jets/cups that is achievable with the Cascade approach...
...What you're seeing in the picture is an attempt to solve the inherent drawbacks to jet impingement across a large flat surface.

A stagnation disruptor?

BTW Cather, did you ever test a Cascade backwards?

Etacovda · 10-01-2004, 01:10 AM

Custom endmill with a hyperbolic cone cut out in the centre?(unless I'm using that term incorrectly)?

I was actually guessing something similar to that (one of my guesses, lol) but I thought the jet/cup idea was being passed over; I was under the impression that it was too cascade like, and the design was different to this.

Les · 10-01-2004, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathar

.... In jet impingement on a flat surface, what's occurring at the absolute dead center of where the jet strikes the base?....
...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incoherent

A stagnation disruptor? .....
..

According to the "submerged jet impingement (SJI)" work of S Garimella it can be the region of highest h

09-30-2004, 08:04 PM	#113
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Ha ha ha ha ha (darn 10 characters...) __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

09-30-2004, 10:05 PM	#116
satanicoo Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: portugal Posts: 635	Well if those are holes on the cups i have never thought on that. But if they are pins... __________________ back.

09-30-2004, 10:21 PM	#118
BalefireX Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Isle of Man Posts: 269	I could swear that Michael Moore told me that Canada was so safe that everyone left their doors unlocked... he wouldn't lie to promote his political agenda...would he? It did look like there were pins in the center in that original blurry picture, and seeing this second one I am even more convinced... not sure of the shape though; cones? pyramids? __________________ If not, why not?

10-01-2004, 01:10 AM	#124
Etacovda Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Dunedin NZ Posts: 735	Custom endmill with a hyperbolic cone cut out in the centre?(unless I'm using that term incorrectly)? I was actually guessing something similar to that (one of my guesses, lol) but I thought the jet/cup idea was being passed over; I was under the impression that it was too cascade like, and the design was different to this. __________________ Hypocritical Signature I tried to delete: Procooling: where scientific principles are ignored because big corporations are immune to mistakes and oversights.

09-30-2004, 03:18 AM	#102
Jag Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 179	Cathar isn't a first timer. He knows the drills. He doesn't want to go all over the same story, as he did with the previous blocks. Restraint is allways good. No, I don't consider this forum the long arm of Swiftech (market). When people is found to be a troll, give him a one way ticket, all o.k. It´s not about the individual (he is judged by his own attitudes and in this case writings), but the nations they're from. There are good and bad people. Their countries are something apart. Most of the times their respective governments, take actions which aren't in consent with their nationals. So why sticking a label on them? I don´t intend or even presume to judge you BIll Adams. Just "looking" at you and you seem to have one hand for handshakes and in the other a big hammer, or a bazooka. People don't know sometimes which one you're going to use, that's all. As for Cathar, I just want to say that your wife was right all along - you've suceeded. My congratulations to your work.

09-30-2004, 04:01 PM	#105
Incoherent Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Vallentuna, Sweden Posts: 410	So, back on thread topic, are there any picture's of the Storm internals anywhere yet? Apart from the middle plate and fuzzy base pictures Cather has posted. Not harassing your picture taking skills Cather, I know how bizarrely machined copper treats light, it's just I am gibbering with curiosity. Please point me in the right direction if so.

09-30-2004, 04:16 PM	#108
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	"Oh, I knew exactly what I was doing with the camera and the light." lol the master manipulator ?

09-30-2004, 04:38 PM	#110
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	I would ask 'to what' ? behaviorism works, so are we all

09-30-2004, 10:09 PM	#117
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	what are the odds that I would have a better pic than the mfgr? Pretty slim. My digicam got stolen last week in the second breakin since March for my house. ****ing teenagers. Buying a new 4 or 5 Mpixel cam soon though

09-30-2004, 10:58 PM	#121
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	Just a rough guess, but being the black dots (shadows) are slightly off centered due to a slight camera angle it leads me to believe there is a small pin in the middle of the hole. If there was a hole in the center of the cups the shadow would remain in the middle no matter the camera angle. Just speculation though. Could just be an odd reflection. But if there is a pin I would be very interested to know if it stuck up inside the jet tube a bit. I do doubt this is the case though as I remember Cathar stating the holes were not precision drilled. Then again if the jet hole was big enough and the pin small enough the holes wouldn't need to be to perfect. Problem with this theory is it removes the jet impingement effect. During the Cascade development I remember a flat bottom was optimal for jet impingement to work at it's best. maybe the pin sticking up into the nozzel adds enough volocity to make up for this and then some though? Bah, to much specualtion. I will wait until we know for sure whats going on in there.

10-01-2004, 12:14 AM	#122
Cathar Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,538	You're on the right track jaydee. In jet impingement on a flat surface, what's occurring at the absolute dead center of where the jet strikes the base? BTW - I no longer really consider the Cascade to be a true impingement design. It's really more of a super-turbulent mash design, along the lines of its origin, being that of a faucet at full blast inside the mouth of a tall deep cup. The problems I faced with jet impingement (JI) after a lot of experimentation was that the Cascade-style mashing worked out best, mostly due to the sheer density of jets/cups that is achievable with the Cascade approach. Making the cups wider and giving enough room to allow for true impingement made things worse, and peak overclock and temperatures dropped away as the convectional gradient is less consistent across the base of the cups. What you're seeing in the picture is an attempt to solve the inherent drawbacks to jet impingement across a large flat surface.

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