Black Ice Radiator reviewed at overclockers

[AngryAlpaca]

http://www.overclockers.com/articles1140/

There's the review. At 30CFM and 1GPM, it dissipates more heat than the Coolwave Power Radiator (twice the size) at 61CFM and 1GPM. That just sounds wrong.

[BillA]

I'm in correspondence with JoeC, there are some 'issues' to be resolved

[Cathar]

*grumble*

No statement of actual air pressure drop through radiator for given air-flow.

Again, no statement of air-water delta.

What is JoeC doing? I, and I'm sure others, had already emailed him.

[Edit: Bill beat me to it]

[BillA]

I know some things:
a 10°C coolant-to-air difference is used, good IMO
a discussion of the appropriate equations is on-going (some metric mix up ?)
the basis for comparison seems not well developed

on-going

[lolito_fr]

How can you possibly mix up metric
Geez nothing can be as bad as BTU/hr and bloody gallons (US or GB !?)
Sorry but why can't the world realise that metric is so much easier?

Anyway this is at least better than nothing, so can't complain too much.

[BillA]

a bloody gallon is always UK
a godamn gallon is US
and nothing is as bad as BTUs

[Cathar]

A 10C delta is very useful information.

A 1.5gpm and 45CFM, that's a C/W of ~0.0515, which seems reasonable and about what one could expect given the similarities between the BIX and the HE120.1.

JoeC has a real opportunity to propel commercial radiator development forwards by ranking radiators based on fannage.

Utilise some editorial bias whereby water-cooling is pushed further down the path where it should be, which is coupling only quiet fans with the radiators, such as not testing with fans noisier than a Panaflo L1A (but testing with fans weaker than that).

[lolito_fr]

Ok lol. Betraying my English origins there.
I'm glad we agree about the BTUs (whetever they are). Hopefully Joe will be converted after playing wrestling with them

[BillA]

my inclination is to go in 2 directions:
tolerable noise (34dBA) with the performance that results,
and low noise (as low as possible, but understand what performance is foregone)

I don't think JoeC is in a position to 'move' the market as I do not believe he has so detailed an understanding,
(this is based on the 2 rad reviews done to date, too much is missing)
in any case it is only where the knowledge lies, coupled with the mfgn capability, that will cause new products to be; not done at the JoeC level

understanding that low cost DIY will always be heater core land, the only remaining market is:
space constrained
noise constrained
looking for more bling than a heater core can deliver

what is needed is a plot of dissipation vs. dBA, among other things

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by unregistered

not done at the JoeC level

Am perhaps thinking along the lines of WCP where a ranking there pretty much makes or breaks a block's success in Europe. While the Cascade sat at the top of their chart I had more requests from Europe than I could ever hope to keep up with. When it got knocked off its perch (however much I disagree with the reasons for why) that was it. Not a single request from Europe after that moment.

Perhaps should not underestimate the power that a (perceived to be) properly setup independent review testbed can hold sway over the audience market.

Witness too the blind belief that a WCP ranked block is "fair", yet blocks tested with varying flow-rates, multiple-mounts, and pumping powers is perceived as "biased".

From what I can tell, almost the entire Euro water-cooling market is driven by a poorly setup, inappropriate, and inadequate independent testbed.

Quite frightening actually.

[BillA]

the existence of pH doing (more accurate) testing precludes JoeC's dominance
ask yourself; if Swiftech had a rad would I send it today to JoeC ?
obviously I do not have a rad, equally apparent is that I would let Joe get his setup sorted out FIRST
- am still smarting over the MCW6000

[Cathar]

I guess it's an issue of whether the general public believes that the tests are done properly. Doesn't matter so much if the manufacturers don't agree, especially when people will buy your product and forward it along to their favorite testbed.

[dacooltech]

definitely too much is missing

"Black Ice Radiator Joe tries out"

Black Ice Radiator? which one?

I don't think it makes any sense to say Ford Car Joe tries out...

that particular model has a name which is Xtreme.
[EDIT] oh OK. I see that he updated the review and now it says Xtreme [/EDIT]

But which revision?

older Rev. 1 or newer Rev. 2?

[EDIT] also put a note: "I should note that this is NOT a new unit - it's been banging around for a while but the design is worth including - there are currently 8 different models of the Black Ice Radiators from Hardware Labs and I will be testing some courtesy of Hardware Labs." [/EDIT]

If that Xtreme is the one I sent him in year 02 with the Hydor L30 pump, then it should be Rev.1

so the Q remains, which revision?

[BillA]

yea, I wondered the same; to look I would guess the Rev. 1
this could easily be a real mish-mash (like the hsfs and wbs and kits)

[dacooltech]

Originally Posted by unregistered

yea, I wondered the same; to look I would guess the Rev. 1
this could easily be a real mish-mash (like the hsfs and wbs and kits)

yea probably it's rev. 1

[pHaestus]

Well this is the time to be constructive and make suggestions. After a lot of rads are tested it's too late...

[dacooltech]

OK looks like we're sending Joe some BI radis on HWlabs's request

[BillA]

Bruce, which models ?
(I'll purchase those I'm w/o and test concurrently)

[dacooltech]

Originally Posted by unregistered

Bruce, which models ?
(I'll purchase those I'm w/o and test concurrently)

Bill, looks like Xtreme Rev.2, Xtreme 2 and Xtreme 3 for now

but if Joe wants to test other Black Ice radis, we'll send those to him, too on HWlabs's behalf

i remember guys over the shop telling me that you purchased some BIs from us. Tell me which one(s) you need, and I'll have a box sent out to you

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by unregistered

a bloody gallon is always UK
a godamn gallon is US
and nothing is as bad as BTUs

at least there are no parallel ATUs.....

[HaloJones]

How does the Black Ice Pro here out-perform the Extreme???

Something is deeply wrong with these tests.

From the Pro test:

For this test, the fan used was a Delta 120 mm fans (WFB1212HH, 0.68 amp, 2800 rpm @ 95 cfm); I varied voltages to attain the cfms tested

So what was used for the Xtreme? How can the fan get changed? CFM is part of the cooling equation but so is static pressure! A fan putting out 30cfm with low pressure will cool less well through a restriction than a fan with high pressure. Suddenly switching to a Delta is ludicrous!

[Les]

Originally Posted by HaloJones

How does the Black Ice Pro here out-perform the Extreme???

See Bill's data and think(a lot)

[lolito_fr]

Joe's tests could be conceived as misleading:

Joe:
BIP - 45cfm, 1.5gpm: 757btu/h = 222W
BIX - 45cfm, 1.5gpm: 662btu/h = 194W

Bill
BIP - 1212VHE, 1.5gpm: 230W
BIX - 1212VHE, 1.5gpm: 253W

Same old problem: presenting only half the equation.
C/W (or dissipation power) vs flow is useless without PQ.

Edit: not fully awake- there must be something more than just misleading about Joe's data??? The BIX is 40mm thick whereas the BIP is 25mm. Surely for the same air flow rate the BIX should be clearly ahead!? (Assuming same fin/tube geometry)
...
Perhaps not thinking hard enough

[BillA]

don't get so het up, its not so hard
for a heat exchanger one wants to know the inlet and outlet temps for both sides,
and their respective flow rates and pressure drops;
this describes the loads and performance, and if data is collected at more than one operating point then curves can be generated

for the liquid side, temps and flow and pressure - no problem (ignoring accuracy)
for the air side; inlet temp only recorded, flow unknown to most, dP unheard of (in this market)

JoeC is attempting to quantify the airflow (vs. my present use of different fans) and I suspect that shortly there might be enough data to compare the 2 methods

I too do not understand the fan's calibration (one 'cal' fits all ? or 'caled' for each device ?)

[lolito_fr]

Joe:
BIP - 45cfm, 1.5gpm: 757btu/h = 222W
BIX - 45cfm, 1.5gpm: 662btu/h = 194W

Just comparing between one point of Joe's test of the BIP and the BIX:

Same liquid flow, same air flow (apparently!?).
(Hopefully!) same liquid inlet - air inlet dT
Similar rad geometry, but BIX visibly has more surface area (?)
So how come disp is higher for the BIP than the BIX?