Standard Noobie question: What do you suggest...

[JJR512]

Yes, I'm a noobie, and yes, I'm going to commit the dreaded sin you experts all hate so much: I'm going to ask you for suggestions. Sorry. From my point of view, the best that can happen is I get good advice, the worst that can happen is I get flamed, and from what I can tell about the people here so far is I'm more likely to get the former rather than the latter. No harm in trying, right?

Now I'm not a complete idiot. I can't just ask what the best watercooling components are and get a single meaningful answer. Answers vary depending on a wide variety of factors. So, I will try to be as specific as possible about what it is, exactly, that I want, in order to help you, dear expert, help me better. Because of the detail I will provide, this post will be fairly long, so apologies up front...now on to it.

I intend to create a new computer in a CoolerMaster Stacker case (click here if unfamiliar); system will most likely be whatever is the top-end P4 Prescott at the time I actually buy it, or possibly a P4EE, but I may just wait for a Prescott on the 1GHz FSB. Anyway...System will also include the current top-end GPU from NVIDIA or ATI. I would like for the watercooling system to include the CPU, GPU, and chipset. I would like for the case to be essentially unmodified, so I would not want to be cutting holes in it, etc. This leaves two spots in the case for mounting a radiator: A 120mm exhaust fan location on the back, and an 80mm blowhole on top. BTW, did I mention I want the radiators mounted inside the case, rather than hanging off on the outside? Anyway, there are those two spots, and I figure...why not use them both? Putting in radiators in both locations should only improve cooling capacity, correct? As for noise considerations: I currently have a Lian-li PC65 case with the two stock 80mm front intake fans, stock 80mm blowhole fan, and two non-stock 80mm Antec rear exhaust fans, plus the PSU, an Antec TruePower 450 (I think it was 450, been a while since I put this system together...). The system is not what I would consider to be loud, but then again, I'm used to it. It's like...when it's running, I don't notice it, but if someone else turned it off, I notice the absence of sound when I enter the room. This old system has a P3/933 with the stock Intel HSF, and the graphics card and chipset are passive cooled. I would like for my new watercooled system to be no louder than what I have now. I was under the impression one of the primary reasons to go with watercooling is that they are much, much quieter than air-cooled rigs, but I've seen a lot of posts here that mention noise levels, so I'm not sure what to expect, really.

I have some specific questions:
1. Given the three waterblocks, two radiators, the pump...and I assume a reservoir is standard equipment, though I rarely see them actually talked about (I guess one vessel that can hold water is just as good as another, really...right?)...what would be the best loop arrangement? Should the two radiators be in series, on right after the other? Should they be in two separate loops that split off after the pump and join back before it, and if so, which waterblock(s) go with which radiator?

2. Given an 80mm and 120mm radiator together, what brand/model would be most preferable? I have read many comments on single-row/low restriction. I'm hoping for a pointer to a specific brand name and model to look for, or at least a suggestion of several to choose from.

3. What would be a good pump for this system? Again, I'm hoping for specific brand/model suggestions.

4. What about hoses? See a lot of talk about Tygon, is that the best?

5. What about fans? Should each radiator have a push fan, a pull fan, or both? From what I think I've understood in my reading here so far, it seems that one fan is better than two...if I understood right.

6. Despite my earlier comment, I suppose I need a suggestion for a reservoir as well...Capacity? Are those drive-bay-mounted units adequate?

7. Fluid: Besides water, what else? I know there are additives, what do I need? One thing I want is water that glows blue by a UV light.

Ummmmm...I think those are all the questions I have for now. If you need me to be more specific about anything, just ask me. Thanks for your help!

[JJR512]

One thing I forgot to mention...If I could modify the top of the case to install a longer radiator there, such as a 3x120mm unit, I would do it, IF it could end up looking like it was supposed to be there. Getting a perfect rectangular cutout is the easy part, the hard part, it seems to me, is filling that cutout with something that looks good, some kind of metal mesh grill that fits in perfect and flush.

[bobkoure]

Are you planning to overclock the CPU or GPU? These are "non ohmic" devices and power consumption goes up non-linearly (and so, of course, does the heat you need to remove).

You are planing to exhaust case air through radiators? You might want to re-think that as case air is warmer than room air and will make whatever temps you end up with higher.

Are you really going to be using 12 disks? Otherwise you might think about some other cases. The next systems I put together will be based on the Chenbro "Genie"

as it has lots of unobstructed area in the lower front - plenty for instance for a BlackIce Pro or a thermochill 120x2 (or a fedco 2-654 8.25x6.25x1).
Anyway, if you're totally set on the Stacker, yes, there are radiators designed to fit the holes for 120mm and 80mm fans. Here's Cooltechnica's page and the numbers mean just what you'd think.
The difference between "pro" and "xtreme" is that the pro is thinner and requires less air pressure (so quieter fan) and the xtreme dumps a bit more heat. Here's the Black Ice manufacturer's site. Do not believe any radiator ratings there but it's useful for radiator dimensions.

I'd suggest not trying to water cool your chipset. If you're trying to reduce noise, put a big passive heatsink on there, and if that isn't cool enough try mounting a quiet fan elsewhere in the case but aimed at this heatsink.

On to pumps. I would guess that your radiator area (one 120x120 one 80x80) is semi-marginal for what you are cooling. You may end up with temps that are no better than air cooling. Warm enough to preclude overclocking, even.
You have to choose the pump that puts the least heat possible into your loop. Read this thread. You will also need to choose waterblocks based on this.

My personal experience with fans and radiators is that push/pull is no better than simple pull, but that pull is often better than push. This does seem to vary based on which radiator and which fan (and how undervolted that fan is) so you may have to try it and see. I have also noticed that fans are slightly quieter if they are on the side of the radiator away from my ears (well duh...) so you may want to "push" just for that (given that you are exhausting case air).

Oh, wait - fluorescent water? OK, so the Genie is out because it doesn't look "cool" - and maybe you'd ought to get advice from someone other than me...

[Chew_Toy]

If you are going to use the CM Stacker I believe you have a couple places you could install rads like the HE120.2 or BIP2. The front drive area would accept either and leave room for about 4 drives yet and the bottom area would also have the room for those or even the triple fanned rads also (you would have to have it on castors or small feet to give clearance for air flow tho) and with a triple there you would only lose 2 drive bays.

If you plan on using 3 blocks I would suggest a setup similar to mine which I use a 3 barb block(White Water or RBX) and run the GPU and chipset in parallel from the block to the res. Personally I would use the RBX w/#5 plate and brass top along with the SilverProp GPU and chipset blocks which would make a full copper/brass setup.

For the res the new Swiftech bayres looks like a very good way to go.

For the pump I would go with 1 or 2 of the MCP600/AquaXtreme 50Z. For noise vs performance vs cost I believe they fit best. Read Cathars post on pumps

For tubing I would suggest spending the extra on the Tygon, it can make some pretty tight bends without kinking (for me it was the one from my RBX to the chipset block).

I hope this helps. I am sure you will get plenty of suggestions that will dissagree with me, but thats what this thread was for and the more ideas you get the easier it will be to make your final decision and get a good setup.

[JJR512]

Originally Posted by bobkoure

Are you planning to overclock the CPU or GPU?

Yes. Sorry I forgot to mention that. I will be trying to get the most performance out of the computer as is reliably possible.

Originally Posted by bobkoure

You are planing to exhaust case air through radiators? You might want to re-think that as case air is warmer than room air and will make whatever temps you end up with higher.

See, this is exactly why I knew it couldn't hurt for me to ask my noobie question: Up until now, I'd always assumed that in a watercooling setup where the radiator is mounted to the same box as the computer, whatever its location on the box, that the air was always going from inside the box, through the radiator, to the outside. In other words, exhausting case air through the radiator, as you say. But your comment makes me think my assumption is incorrect, and now that I'm thinking about it, I can see that exhausting case air doesn't really make sense, as you point out. But if watercooling typically pulls in air from outside the case across the radiator, then you have that heated air inside the case, and heat isn't good for anything in there, including those things that aren't being cooled by water, like RAM, hard drives, power regulater capacitors, etc. ???

Originally Posted by bobkoure

Are you really going to be using 12 disks? Otherwise you might think about some other cases.

No, I don't need 12 disks. Most likely two opticals and two hard drives. The reason for this case selection is because it's a large enough case from a manufacturer known for high quality cases, and it looks good. Looks are important, but are by no means the most important factor. If I have some high-quality suitable cases to choose from, why not pick the best looking one? Plus, as Chew_Toy points out, those unused drive bays might make a good spot for a larger radiator, something I had completely overlooked.

Originally Posted by bobkoure

I'd suggest not trying to water cool your chipset. If you're trying to reduce noise, put a big passive heatsink on there, and if that isn't cool enough try mounting a quiet fan elsewhere in the case but aimed at this heatsink.

I thought that actively cooling the chipset was especially a good idea for overclocking. I realize I didn't mention anything about overclocking originally. Given that I will be overclocking, do you maintain your comment, or now think watercooling the chipset is more important?

Originally Posted by bobkoure

Oh, wait - fluorescent water? OK, so the Genie is out because it doesn't look "cool" - and maybe you'd ought to get advice from someone other than me...

I don't see why you would want to hold back advice just because looking good is a factor. Please bear in mind that looking good is not the only factor, and is not the most important factor. If I have a choice between two components that otherwise perform exactly the same in every way, but one looks better, I'd pick the one that looks better...wouldn't you? With watercooling, I'm trying to get a setup for best performance. But the hoses will be there, the hoses are typically clear, so why not make it glow? It doesn't hurt performance (if I'm wrong, please correct me). The system is not being designed to look good; it's being made to work good, and if it works good first and can also be made to look good, well, why not?

Originally Posted by Chew_Toy

If you are going to use the CM Stacker I believe you have a couple places you could install rads like the HE120.2 or BIP2. The front drive area would accept either and leave room for about 4 drives yet and the bottom area would also have the room for those or even the triple fanned rads also (you would have to have it on castors or small feet to give clearance for air flow tho) and with a triple there you would only lose 2 drive bays.

The BIP2 is 133mm wide, according to the hwlabs website, and 133mm is almost 5.24 inches...If it would fit, this idea is probably better than my own ideas about radiator placement. But it would be a very tight fit. If the case has anything protruding into the drive bay area, like little tabs for supporting the drives or something like that, it might be difficult to actually get the radiator in there. Of course, those tabs could be removed witha Dremel... I'll see if I can get some good close-up pictures of that area from any of the online reviews of this case to see if there are any other potential things that would have to be worked out to make the radiator fit in there. Thanks for the idea!

Originally Posted by Chew_Toy

I hope this helps. I am sure you will get plenty of suggestions that will dissagree with me, but thats what this thread was for and the more ideas you get the easier it will be to make your final decision and get a good setup.

Exactly right!

[JJR512]

Originally Posted by Chew_Toy

If you are going to use the CM Stacker I believe you have a couple places you could install rads like the HE120.2 or BIP2. The front drive area would accept either and leave room for about 4 drives yet and the bottom area would also have the room for those or even the triple fanned rads also (you would have to have it on castors or small feet to give clearance for air flow tho) and with a triple there you would only lose 2 drive bays.

I didn't realize this before, because I couldn't tell from the pictures I had seen, but after digging deeper, I've finally determined that the grating on the bottom of the case is indeed a vent clear to the outside. I don't know the exact dimensions of it, but there should be no trouble rigging up a 120x2, probably even a 120x3 radiator there. I might have to cut the case a bit, but since it will be on the bottom panel, I don't have to worry about making it look pretty from the outside. Also, it seems the case comes with casters. (A FAQ on CoolerMaster's website says the casters can be removed and replaced with feet which come with the case, so this even makes it seem like the casters are mounted standard.)

I do need clarification on one point: Should the fans on the radiator be pulling in air from outside the case across the radiator, or is it the other way around?

With a 120x3 radiator, I would only need to have just that one radiator, so I can abandon the idea of two smaller radiators. For example, the hwlabs Black Ice Pro 3 is rated at 1732.5 kCal/h, whereas the combined ratings of the Black Ice Micro and BIP is only 614.6, little more than a third of the BIP3. (I realize these ratings may not be representative of what I get in the real world, but they help to compare different models from the same brand, I'm thinking...) Now, if I go with a 120x3 radiator, will a single row unit (BIP3, for example) be enough, or would I really need the extra capacity of a double row unit (BIX3, for example)? My understanding, from what I've read in other threads here, is that to really get any benefit from a double row radiator, I would need to use more powerful fans, which means more noise. Is this correct, and just how much more noise are we talking about? Bear in mind the system I have now, with a total of 5 80mm case fans, a double-fan Antec PSU and an Intel HSF. With this watercooling setup, I would have 5 120mm fans (2 case and 3 radiator) and an 80mm case fan, no HSF, and a water pump.

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by JJR512

I don't see why you would want to hold back advice just because looking good is a factor.

Not withholding anything, just pointing out that I am somewhat "bling impaired" and any advice from me would have to be taken with more than a grain of salt in that direction.

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by JJR512

Should the fans on the radiator be pulling in air from outside the case across the radiator, or is it the other way around?

In from outside.

Black Ice Pro 3 is rated at 1732.5 kCal/h,

They're definitely not representative of what you'd get in the real world. It's likely the BI figures come from measuring heat output using a 30 or 40C delta between room and coolant. (a tenth of that would be more realistic for what we're doing) IMHO this exaggerated delta also over states the effectiveness of the thicker rads over the thinner ones. If you've got room in your case, a BIP3 would be a really good thing - particularly as you're pulling air from the coolest part of your room. Note that there are some heater cores that might be as good or better. Download "cores.zip" from this ProCooling thread. Re-sort based on thickness and there are some very interesting 1" thick heater cores. For instance, the fedco 2-734 (finned area is 10.25x7x.98 - so overall is probably more like 11.5x7.5) which you can get from rock auto for about $55. (Double check the actual dimensions with them before you buy it) - and you'd need to build a shroud to ensure that the air your fan(s) pulled actually came through the radiator. The BIs are less work and probably prettier (I mentioned that I'm bling impaired, right?). Comparing frontal area, the BI3s are 432 sq cm and this core is 519 sq cm.
I do care about quiet - one of the reasons I mentioned a core that's 1" thick. Speaking for quiet, be sure to read this procooling thread and the silent PC review thread pointed to there. Your ears will thank you. Oh - and don't forget that most pumps make noise, too...

[bozo]

northbridge watercooling is still not a recommendation. if u are overclocking, just whack on a passive zalman on the nb. watercooling ur nb adds unecessary flow restriction and heat into the watercooling loop.