hidden treasure! peltier found on P133 chip

LopeDogg · 11-28-2004, 02:46 PM

i found a peltier running on a P133 chip.
it was thermal epoxied to a heatsink, the fan it was connected with was of brand "enertron" who make TEC integrated heatsinks.

i looked up the datasheet for thermal epoxy and saw it could operate at 130C only, and i know slder melts at about 200-300C

so i blowtorched it while twisting it, and got it off the heatsink...
chipped the edges of it, but it survived
still works

it was hooked up to the 5v line...
any idea what wattage it might be and what its maximum voltage could be?

i emailed enertron, but i doubt they are gonna provide me with any usefull info :/

still quite a score..
can anyone think of a use for a super low power peltier?

LopeDogg · 11-29-2004, 05:21 AM

i cleaned the epoxy off the peltier, and pressed against its cold side with my thumb with its hot side on a heatsink...

it gets cold, and develops condensation after a minute or something...

when i found it it was hooked up to the 5v rail...

at 5v it draws 700ma, and at 7v it draws 900ma... any idea what its max voltage is?
the only thing i can think of making with it is a desktop glacier hehe.

jaydee · 11-29-2004, 10:10 AM

Thats weird it was hooked up to a P133. Those were cooled with just a heat sink and no fan. Still got a couple around here somewhere. I would guess max V is 14-15? I hear TEC's run optimally about 3V less than max. That would be around 12V which would be the power supplies max voltage.... Have no clue though, just speculation.

killernoodle · 11-29-2004, 02:05 PM

We had a p200 with a heatsink that was tightened against it, no thermal paste, and about 5 fins on it. A pelt on a P133 is almost laughable

LopeDogg · 11-29-2004, 04:08 PM

hehe
after playing with the peltier quite a bit today... i have the following progress

tried it at 12V, got bored of 7v, and it worked...
unfortunately i damaged the pelt in ripping it off the heatsink... im assuming
because the one corner of the cold side is f*** hot, the rest is cold...

it does look like its got quite a bit of dusty grimey crap inside it...

came up with the idea of making a personal cooler... have a peltier with a heat spreader which u strap to your forearm, its got a slim heatsink and fan on the hot side... hehe sure its not gonna be a fasion accessory, but its something to play with in the death of summer...
also i thought having peltier cooled aluminium arm wrests in a car would be the best shit since sliced bread. would use less power than an aircon *g*, cheaper too, and u get instant satisfaction... kind of.

anyway... been wrestling with the PC for the last lil while, it was running f***** up. it seemed to run fine on its side, but not stable when upright (tower).
after stealing the peltier i just put a normal heatsink and fan on the CPU...
i felt the CPU and it was smokin! i was feeling the heat rising off it into my face hehe.
turns out the cpu had the wrong voltage setting... no wonder some fool spent the money on the peltier for it *g*
anyway, the mystery is solved...

im hoping its just crap(dust) inside the peltier causing the problem with its corner of the cold side getting damn hot.
would like to soak it in alcohol if i can find some.

right now my best idea for the peltier is making a PC powered beer coaster thing(btw it draws 1.7A @ 12v)

SlaterSpeed · 11-29-2004, 05:23 PM

Make a fuel cooler/heater. Cool it for power then just reverse the polarity (think thats right) and youve got a fuel heater for better economy!

rgathright · 12-09-2004, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlaterSpeed

Make a fuel cooler/heater. Cool it for power then just reverse the polarity (think thats right) and youve got a fuel heater for better economy!

Why did you post that to that thread? Were you joking? If you were not... PM me back... I have a website to show you.

I Pm'ed you about this, but got no reply... so I had to post here. :shrug:

SlaterSpeed · 12-09-2004, 04:14 PM

Hey yeh sorry about that i allways miss my pms

il reply now

superart · 12-09-2004, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgathright

Why did you post that to that thread? Were you joking? If you were not... PM me back... I have a website to show you.

I Pm'ed you about this, but got no reply... so I had to post here. :shrug:

Could you post that link. I would be interested in something like that also.

Thanks.

rgathright · 12-10-2004, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superart

Could you post that link. I would be interested in something like that also.
Thanks.

Sure... I am just cautious... the other peltier forums blasted me though.

http://www.reubengathright.com/DakFu...gResearch.html
I think we can all learn from my attempts. The least of which... my ch$ap pumps. I plan on using the new Swiftech MCP 650 series when done, but for now these aerators from Wally world are just rock solid.

superart · 12-10-2004, 04:49 PM

Thats pretty cool.

But it seems like that water loop adds extra weight that might be avoided.

Heve you considdered running an extra loop out of the fuel tank that is pumped through a waterblock that is being cooled by a TEC, then back to the fuel tank.

Then cool the hot side of the TEC with a HSF.

Kinda like i have in the pic.

Would that work?

rgathright · 12-13-2004, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superart

Have you considdered running an extra loop out of the fuel tank that is pumped through a waterblock that is being cooled by a TEC, then back to the fuel tank.
Would that work?

Yes that would work. I do not think that would be easy for the average user to install though. Adding two extra NPT connections to fuel tanks is a challenging job for even advanced mechanics because of the explosive potential of fuel.

I can easily convert this system to directly cool fuel, but then no one else would be able to use it and most professional racing organizations would ban it.

My system does have it's flaws... number one the copper rail to fuel rail thermal conductivity. Luckily, I am getting results even with this 50-75% thermal energy loss.

superart · 12-13-2004, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgathright

Yes that would work. I do not think that would be easy for the average user to install though. Adding two extra NPT connections to fuel tanks is a challenging job for even advanced mechanics because of the explosive potential of fuel.

why is it chalanging? just empty the tank first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgathright

I can easily convert this system to directly cool fuel, but then no one else would be able to use it and most professional racing organizations would ban it.

why would it be banned? safety? If you think about it, cold fuel is safer than warm or hot fuel. less likely to start a fire.

Belenar · 12-13-2004, 11:34 AM

Why are you guys cooling the tank? That's about the most inefficient way to cool the fuel, because, you have to cool the whole tank. I would place the cooling unit in the line going to the engine. That way it only cools the fuel that is going to be used... Far more efficient I think (but then again, I'm nog a mechanic :-p, so I am probably not aware of the difficulties in doing it that way.)

SlaterSpeed · 12-13-2004, 02:27 PM

You cant just go welding fuel tanks! its very vrey dangerous.

You see even if there is the slightest drop of fuel left in there it will cause an explosion due to it being in a confined space. Even if you do empty it, it still contains vapor which is attualy alot more dangerous than the liquid fuel. The only way to weld fuel tanks is to get them properly cleaned to make sure no fuel remains inside and even them its a risk!

Agreed that cooling the tank is a total waste of time. I may have a go at making a little block that the fuel is pumped through which is then attached to the pelt and then the pelt is cooled by hsf (having a delta screemer on there doesnt relly pose any problems on a car)

Ive got a spare 80w pelt handy how effective do you think that would be?

Also can anyone confirm that switching polarity across the tec would turn it into a heater? that would be pretty useful to aid starting in the mornings!

slater..

superart · 12-13-2004, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belenar

Why are you guys cooling the tank? That's about the most inefficient way to cool the fuel, because, you have to cool the whole tank. I would place the cooling unit in the line going to the engine. That way it only cools the fuel that is going to be used... Far more efficient I think (but then again, I'm nog a mechanic :-p, so I am probably not aware of the difficulties in doing it that way.)

That is basicly what slatter's system does.

My only concern is, i dont know if the fuel pump is strong enough to pull the fuel through the block.

Also, the fuel lines are much smaller ID than the coolant lines, you would have to design your block, which is restrictive as it is, with even smaller ID barbs. That introduces much more head.

Plus, the tank is, at most, arround 15 gallons. A good pump with not much restricttion can pass through 15 gallons fairly quikly. After the initial pass through, the entire tank is as cold (actually colder) as the fuel would have been if you were cooling it inline. At this point, any aditional cooling will make it even colder than it would otherwise have been.

SlatterSpeed, is there a point where its too cold? Like is it possible to cool it too much? I'm nottalking about cooling it to the point of freezing, but is there a certain temp, where, if it passes that point, your doing harm to horsepower instead of good?

SlaterSpeed · 12-13-2004, 03:38 PM

Theorecticly yeh but as you say realisticly not relly. At least not once the engine is warmed up and running at a normal operating temp. Starting can be effeted by low intake charge temp (eg carb iceing) and so can economy but this is easly overcome by having a on/off switch for the system (or even a heater mode as i suggested)

Ive seen this done before for drag racing but using dry ice (maybe even LiquidN2?) insted of a pelt. it works well but obviously isnt sustainible as the dry ice evaporates quickly.

The same effect can be had by nitros oxide injection as alot of the power increse you get with N2O attualy comes from the cooler intake temps aswell as the exctra oxygen.

superart · 12-13-2004, 04:21 PM

so heating the fuel would give you better milage?

SlaterSpeed · 12-13-2004, 05:12 PM

Genrally in a cold climate your right. Its maybe not so clear cut in hotter climates and climates that are warm all year round tho.

On older cars you used to rotate the air intake of the engine over the exhaust in winter so the engine picked up hotter air and then in the summer you would rotate it away from the exhaust to pick up cooler air to compensate for a higher ambiant temp.

Im not relly an expert but its to do with the atomistaion of the fuel. For good economy you need the fuel to mix with the air a much as possible this makes the fuel burn better and more effeciently in the combustion chamber. The heat helps to keep the fuel and air mixed well (i guess this is simalr to the air evaporating the fuel)

However for power you need both good mix and alot of it. Theres a trade off between having a relly good fuel atomistaion and gettign dencer cooler air into the engine. and the trade off normaly favors the cooler air.

rgathright · 12-13-2004, 06:30 PM

One of the biggest problems with chilling the fuel is volume... sometimes you are only pulling a few CC and the next minute you are pulling hundreds of CC! This would as a result vary the temperature of the fuel going to engine greatly.

If I just chilled the fuel rails, I create a consistent chill and at the same time maintain an even temperature amongst all fuel injectors. The fuel injected engines in Vipers and Dakotas (no relation to cubic inches) have no return fuel line. This causes the fuel that reaches the passenger's side of the engine to be hotter... which can cause pre detonation, reducing the overall efficiency and losing HP.

I have this system working, during the summer months, you can really feel the difference when the engine is hot and the system is off. The truck feels sluggish to start and rev up. I have dyno charts on my webpage and more indepth discussion.

As far as donor Peltier's, I have an 80W and two Danger Den Maze 4's at home. I putting them together with my special Epoxy (to protect the fragile electrical connectors) and RTV Silicone treatment. What water vapor???

Thanks, keep up the discussion, ideas are hard to come by.

11-28-2004, 02:46 PM	#1
LopeDogg Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Africa Posts: 69	hidden treasure! peltier found on P133 chip i found a peltier running on a P133 chip. it was thermal epoxied to a heatsink, the fan it was connected with was of brand "enertron" who make TEC integrated heatsinks. i looked up the datasheet for thermal epoxy and saw it could operate at 130C only, and i know slder melts at about 200-300C so i blowtorched it while twisting it, and got it off the heatsink... chipped the edges of it, but it survived still works it was hooked up to the 5v line... any idea what wattage it might be and what its maximum voltage could be? i emailed enertron, but i doubt they are gonna provide me with any usefull info :/ still quite a score.. can anyone think of a use for a super low power peltier?

11-29-2004, 02:05 PM	#4
killernoodle Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1,014	We had a p200 with a heatsink that was tightened against it, no thermal paste, and about 5 fins on it. A pelt on a P133 is almost laughable __________________ I have a nice computer.

11-29-2004, 05:23 PM	#6
SlaterSpeed Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Suffolk, UK Posts: 234	Make a fuel cooler/heater. Cool it for power then just reverse the polarity (think thats right) and youve got a fuel heater for better economy! __________________ aka. slater3333uk - The self proclaimed 'Middle Player' 'Liquified'

12-09-2004, 04:14 PM	#8
SlaterSpeed Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Suffolk, UK Posts: 234	Hey yeh sorry about that i allways miss my pms il reply now __________________ aka. slater3333uk - The self proclaimed 'Middle Player' 'Liquified'

12-13-2004, 11:34 AM	#14
Belenar Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 51	Why are you guys cooling the tank? That's about the most inefficient way to cool the fuel, because, you have to cool the whole tank. I would place the cooling unit in the line going to the engine. That way it only cools the fuel that is going to be used... Far more efficient I think (but then again, I'm nog a mechanic :-p, so I am probably not aware of the difficulties in doing it that way.) __________________ The fastest cross team around: Team Supreme

11-29-2004, 05:21 AM	#2
LopeDogg Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Africa Posts: 69	i cleaned the epoxy off the peltier, and pressed against its cold side with my thumb with its hot side on a heatsink... it gets cold, and develops condensation after a minute or something... when i found it it was hooked up to the 5v rail... at 5v it draws 700ma, and at 7v it draws 900ma... any idea what its max voltage is? the only thing i can think of making with it is a desktop glacier hehe.

11-29-2004, 10:10 AM	#3
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	Thats weird it was hooked up to a P133. Those were cooled with just a heat sink and no fan. Still got a couple around here somewhere. I would guess max V is 14-15? I hear TEC's run optimally about 3V less than max. That would be around 12V which would be the power supplies max voltage.... Have no clue though, just speculation.

11-29-2004, 04:08 PM	#5
LopeDogg Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Africa Posts: 69	hehe after playing with the peltier quite a bit today... i have the following progress tried it at 12V, got bored of 7v, and it worked... unfortunately i damaged the pelt in ripping it off the heatsink... im assuming because the one corner of the cold side is f*** hot, the rest is cold... it does look like its got quite a bit of dusty grimey crap inside it... came up with the idea of making a personal cooler... have a peltier with a heat spreader which u strap to your forearm, its got a slim heatsink and fan on the hot side... hehe sure its not gonna be a fasion accessory, but its something to play with in the death of summer... also i thought having peltier cooled aluminium arm wrests in a car would be the best shit since sliced bread. would use less power than an aircon g, cheaper too, and u get instant satisfaction... kind of. anyway... been wrestling with the PC for the last lil while, it was running f***** up. it seemed to run fine on its side, but not stable when upright (tower). after stealing the peltier i just put a normal heatsink and fan on the CPU... i felt the CPU and it was smokin! i was feeling the heat rising off it into my face hehe. turns out the cpu had the wrong voltage setting... no wonder some fool spent the money on the peltier for it g anyway, the mystery is solved... im hoping its just crap(dust) inside the peltier causing the problem with its corner of the cold side getting damn hot. would like to soak it in alcohol if i can find some. right now my best idea for the peltier is making a PC powered beer coaster thing(btw it draws 1.7A @ 12v)

12-13-2004, 02:27 PM	#15
SlaterSpeed Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Suffolk, UK Posts: 234	You cant just go welding fuel tanks! its very vrey dangerous. You see even if there is the slightest drop of fuel left in there it will cause an explosion due to it being in a confined space. Even if you do empty it, it still contains vapor which is attualy alot more dangerous than the liquid fuel. The only way to weld fuel tanks is to get them properly cleaned to make sure no fuel remains inside and even them its a risk! Agreed that cooling the tank is a total waste of time. I may have a go at making a little block that the fuel is pumped through which is then attached to the pelt and then the pelt is cooled by hsf (having a delta screemer on there doesnt relly pose any problems on a car) Ive got a spare 80w pelt handy how effective do you think that would be? Also can anyone confirm that switching polarity across the tec would turn it into a heater? that would be pretty useful to aid starting in the mornings! slater.. __________________ aka. slater3333uk - The self proclaimed 'Middle Player' 'Liquified'

12-13-2004, 03:38 PM	#17
SlaterSpeed Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Suffolk, UK Posts: 234	Theorecticly yeh but as you say realisticly not relly. At least not once the engine is warmed up and running at a normal operating temp. Starting can be effeted by low intake charge temp (eg carb iceing) and so can economy but this is easly overcome by having a on/off switch for the system (or even a heater mode as i suggested) Ive seen this done before for drag racing but using dry ice (maybe even LiquidN2?) insted of a pelt. it works well but obviously isnt sustainible as the dry ice evaporates quickly. The same effect can be had by nitros oxide injection as alot of the power increse you get with N2O attualy comes from the cooler intake temps aswell as the exctra oxygen. __________________ aka. slater3333uk - The self proclaimed 'Middle Player' 'Liquified'

12-13-2004, 04:21 PM	#18
superart Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: FL Posts: 787	so heating the fuel would give you better milage? __________________ When you do things right, people won't be sure youv'e done anything at all. Looking to buy/trade for used Deep Fryer and Vacume Pack Sealer.

12-13-2004, 05:12 PM	#19
SlaterSpeed Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Suffolk, UK Posts: 234	Genrally in a cold climate your right. Its maybe not so clear cut in hotter climates and climates that are warm all year round tho. On older cars you used to rotate the air intake of the engine over the exhaust in winter so the engine picked up hotter air and then in the summer you would rotate it away from the exhaust to pick up cooler air to compensate for a higher ambiant temp. Im not relly an expert but its to do with the atomistaion of the fuel. For good economy you need the fuel to mix with the air a much as possible this makes the fuel burn better and more effeciently in the combustion chamber. The heat helps to keep the fuel and air mixed well (i guess this is simalr to the air evaporating the fuel) However for power you need both good mix and alot of it. Theres a trade off between having a relly good fuel atomistaion and gettign dencer cooler air into the engine. and the trade off normaly favors the cooler air. __________________ aka. slater3333uk - The self proclaimed 'Middle Player' 'Liquified'

12-13-2004, 06:30 PM	#20
rgathright Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: la Posts: 10	One of the biggest problems with chilling the fuel is volume... sometimes you are only pulling a few CC and the next minute you are pulling hundreds of CC! This would as a result vary the temperature of the fuel going to engine greatly. If I just chilled the fuel rails, I create a consistent chill and at the same time maintain an even temperature amongst all fuel injectors. The fuel injected engines in Vipers and Dakotas (no relation to cubic inches) have no return fuel line. This causes the fuel that reaches the passenger's side of the engine to be hotter... which can cause pre detonation, reducing the overall efficiency and losing HP. I have this system working, during the summer months, you can really feel the difference when the engine is hot and the system is off. The truck feels sluggish to start and rev up. I have dyno charts on my webpage and more indepth discussion. As far as donor Peltier's, I have an 80W and two Danger Den Maze 4's at home. I putting them together with my special Epoxy (to protect the fragile electrical connectors) and RTV Silicone treatment. What water vapor??? Thanks, keep up the discussion, ideas are hard to come by.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)