TDX vs MCW6002 LN

[Etacovda]

uh oh, posts are slowly deleting themselves from threads... damn black holes, eh

[Blackeagle]

Originally Posted by unregistered

BE
someone may have a copy of it, but if you know Wes just ask him

its problem (for me) was the Luddite/anti tech tone of the intro - and everything that followed
some actually like technology, I think we are called 'geeks' by those with less interest
people who like technology get into it, they do not denigrate the tools or the individuals who use those tools
people who embark into new activities do not 'normally' presume to write articles about such, they learn FIRST
people writing for the public better get their article vetted by someone knowledgeable, or they may be called a fool

Wes led with his chin and got decked, a shame he could not have had you read the article first
I have to wonder what you would have said to him ?

Hi Bill,

I first tried to respond not long after your post, but took to long & found the server down. So this is a bit late.

I did e-mail Wes & asked for a copy of the article, which he has sent me, so this response will be better informed.

When I met and talked with Wes some time ago he mentioned he intended to do this article. He also expressed his concern regarding how it could be torn apart here as he lacked the equipment & funding for equipment to match what's done here.
I told him at the time to clearly state his methods and how his readings of performances were done. To in fact disclaim any attempt for fine accuracy. While there is a defensive tone in his opening of the article, he did attempt to do so. I don't believe Wes had any intent to degrade or insult those more "into it" than he is, and Wes is more "into" computers than this article shows. And had he'd not had the problems with omitting the differance in ambient & mounting I doubt his intro would have been much of a issue.

I agree 100% with vetting/editing of a article, BEFORE it's posted, rather than after. Not only should the author desire such, any site posting such articles, should insist on it. This, it's now clear, is not the way things are done at LN.

Having read this thread as well as the article I'll say this much only (as hind sight is 20/20). In future I'll suggest to anyone who hasn't high accuracy testing equipment that temp readings be left out. With the differances possible due to motherboard temp readings it's mission impossible to do so without spewing BS. And no matter how clearly the limitations of the set up are posted in the article they'll be torn to shreds if temp readings are given. I'll tell them further that if they feel they need some way of making a comparison to do so via max stable O/C readings. I've no doubt of them still have'n negative commentary by someone, but that's the only option I see. Aside from limiting the review to things like ease of mounting, bling ....ect.

EDIT: But on the other hand I rather expect they'll feel they have to have temps......they're expected by readers....... And I don't blame them for feeling that way, as I myself expect numbers not just ease of mouting & bling reports.......fluff.

So I guess that along with what I told Wes I'll really push the idea of getting SOMEBODY to act as editor for them, and make it the most expert person they know in the area they'll be doing the article in.

Perhaps you'd like me to suggest you Bill as you're one of the best in the field of water cooling....... Hehe......

[BillA]

and there was a bunch of activity not on the forums
live and learn, hopefully

[Blackeagle]

Originally Posted by unregistered

and there was a bunch of activity not on the forums
live and learn, hopefully

If you can share some of/all this, please do. I'd be interested in any further info about this.

[pHaestus]

sorry guys some weirdness with php and mysql and the server. This was the best Joe could do; other alternative was keep the posts and PMs from the last day but lose ALL attachments and the ability to make attachments and have a messed up db that the forums are running on.

As far as that article goes, as I said I was insulted enough by the introductions firm stance against technical correctness that I didn't read it too carefully. I get the impression that the wbs were tested in a way that really only tested suitability for mounting on A64s w/o heatspreaders though rather than actual relative performance when correctly configured. If that's the case then it should be pulled because it's a flawed test.

Look guys no one here is saying that you have to have formal training in thermodynamics and thousands in equipment to post a web review. But why would you attack the work of people who DO spend money on equipment and who are following (generally speaking) the testing methods appropriate to evaluate the products? It just makes you look like a fool in my opinion.

[Blackeagle]

Originally Posted by Player0

But does hosting a bar-b-que help? No. Does it do any harm I hear some thinking....yes it does.....a great deal of harm.......to this sites rep.

And how many flame wars have you participated in yourself here? You were vocal enough when it was my review and take on the TDX.

The biggest surprise to me regarding this thread is the revelation of PlayerO reading his members PMs. While not illegal here as it is in much of the EU and Aus. it is a contemptable act. Sad to see how little PlayerO understands how deeply it offends, or he'd never have braged of it in this thread & needled Cathar regarding it. As it becomes better known It'll cause a loss of some of his membership, keep other perspective members well away & generally result in a total lack of trust in his leadership @ LN.

It's sad that the ones who have a personal issue with me are coming here to shit on a thread that has absolutely nothing to do with me what so ever There are many sites that filter and read PMs. There are lots of VB hacks for that specifically. I've never been anything but upfront about it. Hey, every character you type on my site comes in to my home and sits on my PCs. Even if I wasnt looking, it's impossibly dumb to think that I couldnt. So why hide that fact? Its in LiquidNinjas.com's agreement and forum policies that clearly states that PMs do not fall outside of moderator jurisdiction.

In Cathars particular case, his name was put on the VB scan list due to his previous actions on the site. I got his PMs which contained some ungreat things, and I warned him not to continue violating LN policies in private as well as public.

Cathar's just pissy with me so he wants to try and stir up shit and anti-Player0 and anti-LN sentiment, and it's all the same ones who flamed me before here, so I'm neither surprised nor concerned. He can come on here and start spraying as though he's made some great personal discovery about how horrible I am. He never would have known if I hadn't wanted him too. It's not like he read our policies where it's pretty clear. Everyone on LN has known about that forever.

Like I said, Im sure many many forums you visit do the same thing, only they may not let you know that. If you're worried about privacy, use PGP or something. What kind of privacy do you really expect by sending plaintext to the internet?

Fact is that..... NO ......sites I spend much time on don't do this, further they condem it. Sure I know it's possible for you to do so......excuse me for expecting you to have more class and act with more honor.......

As to your reception here over the review you did. Yep, I expected a hell of a lot more from a site owner than someone posting a first review. As many here would/can tell you I'm far more often found posting for greater calm and reasoned debate. Your case was a exception to that for me.

And it'll not be just Cathar calling you over reading PM's in the future I expect. Not after the way you brag of it here......so expect it........defend it even.....if you really still think you can......& watch your sites traffic drop each time it comes up......

[BillA]

Craig
the e-mails and decision making were not mine
it was a flawed test and was pulled for that reason by the site
EOS

had the author more experience, or relied on those who did, this would not have occured
had the site a functional editorial/review process, this would not have occured
several lessons, as usual

[Blackeagle]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

sorry guys some weirdness with php and mysql and the server. This was the best Joe could do; other alternative was keep the posts and PMs from the last day but lose ALL attachments and the ability to make attachments and have a messed up db that the forums are running on.

As far as that article goes, as I said I was insulted enough by the introductions firm stance against technical correctness that I didn't read it too carefully. I get the impression that the wbs were tested in a way that really only tested suitability for mounting on A64s w/o heatspreaders though rather than actual relative performance when correctly configured. If that's the case then it should be pulled because it's a flawed test.

Look guys no one here is saying that you have to have formal training in thermodynamics and thousands in equipment to post a web review. But why would you attack the work of people who DO spend money on equipment and who are following (generally speaking) the testing methods appropriate to evaluate the products? It just makes you look like a fool in my opinion.

pH,

Look, as the one who urged Wes to make a very clear opening statment regarding the limits of his rig as a testing set up and such, I'll take much of the heat for that. I'll also try to be more complete regarding such, as I posted to Bill in future.

Wes informed me that he did use the original jet in the TDX, not the #4 or #5. So JD's posted graphing of the two blocks did/does have relavance.

But could you Please add that jet info to the interactive graph here? Even better also add the TDX & RBX performance with the #4 & 5 jets.....or at least the #5 which has the highest performance with many pumps. Such additions will also make it clearer how to best make use of the DD blocks.

[Blackeagle]

Originally Posted by jaydee116

Your way doesn't do any good, my way got a bad review pulled. Get it?

JD,

Even before Bill's last post I had to wonder just how much influance your & others flaming had in getting the article pulled.

Now if you read Bill's last post I would suggest it had none.

I know you get very flustrated with reviews that don't have high accuracy. But do hope you'll further consider which is of more value in altering that, reason or fire.

I myself may have to try doing a review of some facet of water cooling. (Highest possible performance + lowest noise possible......at the same time) Would no doubt be a learning experiance......and could possibly give you a few laughs as well. I will try to limit the entertainment/humor value however. I hope you'll forgive me that .......

[pHaestus]

The #5 does not have better performance than the #4; it performs better at a given flow rate but it's restrictive enough that in real loops it performs on par with the #4. The #4 is the nozzle that DD SHOULD be shipping the TDX with; it's better than their stock nozzle for almost all cases.

I didn't test the additional nozzles on the RBX because frankly I didn't recommend people buy the RBX. It was too narrow to mount reliably on the XPs and it didn't properly cover the IHS on P4s and A64 (as per Intel and AMD specs).

[Blackeagle]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

The #5 does not have better performance than the #4; it performs better at a given flow rate but it's restrictive enough that in real loops it performs on par with the #4. The #4 is the nozzle that DD SHOULD be shipping the TDX with; it's better than their stock nozzle for almost all cases.

I didn't test the additional nozzles on the RBX because frankly I didn't recommend people buy the RBX. It was too narrow to mount reliably on the XPs and it didn't properly cover the IHS on P4s and A64 (as per Intel and AMD specs).

Thanks for the info and response on this pH.

Fair enough in regards to the RBX. Could you just post the curve for the TDX & #4 jet then & label the RBX & TDX curves now shown as being with the original jet? Thanks pH.

[y371]

Originally Posted by Cathar

I still haven't forgiven LN for their forum admins reading the private messages of forum members, and then quoting the content of those PM's in public in the forums as a sad attempt to give themselves ammunition against those who they are unable to hold a mature debate with.

Originally Posted by Player0

He never would have known if I hadn't wanted him too.

Sorry to further develop a hijack--

@Player0:

I don't believe you wanted him to know... You messaged me out of the blue with comments about your past spats with Cathar. The hair raiser was when you made a statement in reference to a discussion between Cathar and myself we were conducting via PM. I asked Cathar through email if he had talked to you and we were both... agitated... when it was discovered he didn't directly relay the content or nature of our discussions to you. The thread calling you out on the "monitoring" resulted in his being banned from the forums-- you stated past "history" led to your decision... "history" perhaps hinted at in Cathar's statement above.

Regardless, my only intent of this post was to bring to light my disbelief in your statement that you let him (or anyone else) know you were looking at his PMs. I believe you slipped and thats the end of the story.

Good day to all.

*edit: I don't know if Cathar is still banned from LN... I haven't been back to the forums.

[pHaestus]

For all practical purposes the TDX with #4 performs the same as the RBX w/ #1. Here's a graph though for the hell of it:



I gotta go work out and then go shopping; bbl

[Blackeagle]

Originally Posted by y371

Sorry to further develop a hijack--

@Player0:

I don't believe you wanted him to know... You messaged me out of the blue with comments about your past spats with Cathar. The hair raiser was when you made a statement in reference to a discussion between Cathar and myself we were conducting via PM. I asked Cathar through email if he had talked to you and we were both... agitated... when it was discovered he didn't directly relay the content or nature of our discussions to you. The thread calling you out on the "monitoring" resulted in his being banned from the forums-- you stated past "history" led to your decision... "history" perhaps hinted at in Cathar's statement above.

Regardless, my only intent of this post was to bring to light my disbelief in your statement that you let him (or anyone else) know you were looking at his PMs. I believe you slipped and thats the end of the story.

Good day to all.

*edit: I don't know if Cathar is still banned from LN... I haven't been back to the forums.

Thanks for posting this. Though his bragging in regards to this ugly pratice is a indicater that he's little regard for what his users think or the privacy of those folks.

But those learning of it will be far less likly to go to LN, no matter what he may think.

And if Cathar is banned there that's a major loss to his readership, not that he'll care.

[Player0]

Beleive what you want. Im not here to stir opinions. It's completely untrue but I have no need to argue any of it to death with the few folks who have personal issues with me. There are there other people responsible for LNs direction. No decision has ever been exclusively been my own. I am the host/programmer. Most everything else is left up to other people. But its easy to be ignorant of that and scapegoat it all against me. Dont mind, I know who has issues with me, and theres far fewer of them than the ones that respect what i might have to say. LN thrives, thats a fact. I dont spend all day reading the 1000s of PMs that go back and forth. Cathar was not banned for 'exposing' some great consipiracy. I have posted/banned/warned many others before Cathar about PM contents. Fact, searchable on LN, certainly provable. If you dont like the policy, don't go to LN. Most people dont have to hide their comments because they aren't false, backstabbing, and spiteful. Yeah, I was extremely pissed when I read those PMs, so lets not act all innocent about what they contained. Spent an hour doing my best to answer your questions, only to be accused of whoring DDen products (wasnt even recommending them in the post). There was a vote between several people to ban Cathar...wasnt my sole decision.

I'm done with this conversation. If you dont like how LN is run, does reviews, then just dont go there. It doesnt hurt me. This is a hobby, not a business. Im not trying to compete with ProCooling. I read here all the time. LNs focus is different, we're more of a beginner site. I still reference people with tougher questions over here. I know I havent been liked here since, you know, I tried to have my own opinion and now theres a handful of people here who dispise me for it. Well, whatever. I couldnt be concerned less. It's the Holidays, I have better things on my mind.

My reason for posting here was to help defend Wes who is a friend of mine. And to explain to those ignorant of this fact, that I had nothing to do with the contents of said review. Beyond that, those with personal problems with me just want to take this in any direction they can to discredit me and LN. So my part here is over. In the end, nothing really changes, so give it up. I'm out.

[WesM63]

Originally Posted by unregistered

BE
someone may have a copy of it, but if you know Wes just ask him

its problem (for me) was the Luddite/anti tech tone of the intro - and everything that followed
some actually like technology, I think we are called 'geeks' by those with less interest
people who like technology get into it, they do not denigrate the tools or the individuals who use those tools
people who embark into new activities do not 'normally' presume to write articles about such, they learn FIRST
people writing for the public better get their article vetted by someone knowledgeable, or they may be called a fool

Wes led with his chin and got decked, a shame he could not have had you read the article first
I have to wonder what you would have said to him ?

Bill,
Here we go again making assumptions that we don't know anything about.

I might of led chin first and got decked, but I don't go down and stay down that easy.


You can expect more reviews from me, hell if you even knew me half as well as Craig does then could go ahead and make assumptions that you might know a little bit about.

JD, The review wasn't ment to be a one time thing, I sold the system as I needed money. I'm sure everyone has done that before.


For those of you that actually read it, everything was stated in it. but i'll say it again for you nay-sayers. To some, a geek like myself the reviews/numbers that jo e and PH put up are a good hard start at what to look for but are somewhat limited in other aspects. I want to know more about the block, how it mounts ect. Others do to, hence my style of reviewing. I look at every aspect not only from the geek side of things but the general populations side of things. I left the stock jet in the TDX for a reason, the general population wouldn't change the jet, so I didn't. I used simple tools and simple ways of explaining things, the PC refrences in my review were made for a reason, not to put down PC as some of you might say but to make it clear that my testing was done in a diffrent way than "the gods a PC", who's reviews are looked at as the "holy grail". I used MBM to monitor temps because I didn't have the money to buy an expensive Digital Thermometer and using MBM fitted in quite nicely with the basis of my review, its simple and alot of people use it even thou its quite innacurrate.

Now that everything has been stated clearly please read through this a few times before you all continue making assumptions about my competence among other things.

//pours more gas on his own flaming... whilst thinking to himself, "Its useless to argue at PC, you'll never win, they're as stubbron as you are!"

[Blackeagle]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

For all practical purposes the TDX with #4 performs the same as the RBX w/ #1. Here's a graph though for the hell of it:



I gotta go work out and then go shopping; bbl

Yes those are quite close, but would still imporve clarity to have the differant #4 curve included & label the original as such.

And the differance, though slight, above 1.5gpm will be of interest to some try'n to decide what block to go with.

Good luck going shopping this close to Xmas........shudder......braver than I. I really dislike going in stores this time of year.

Thanks pH.

[Blackeagle]

Wes,

Glad to know you'll try again. Sorry this happened & that my advice regarding this article was so far off regarding how it would be recieved here.

Happy holidays

[BillA]

"Bill,
Here we go again making assumptions that we don't know anything about."

ok, what or which assumption(s) are you referring to ?

you sold the rig ?
hope that did not include the Swiftech wb as Gabe is expecting you to return it

you will find a stronger correlation with intelligence and 'winning' arguments than simply being stubborn

[Cathar]

The content of the posts and PM's at LN are no longer available for me to defend myself, and it's basically just Player0's words against mine, and y371's.

y371 had asked a question about the Cascade in a thread. I responded. Player0 jumped in trashing the Cascade ("total waste of money", or something to that effect). What that had to do with the question I had no idea. Player0 then embarked on some rampage amounting to saying that water-block advances were pointless and that TEC's atop CPU's were the way to go. We got into a debate where I was basically saying that the reported temperatures don't neccessarily tell the whole story. Player0 then started throwing insults about, beating his chest claiming how all-knowledgable and important he was. y371 contacted me via LN's PM system asking me what Player0's problem was. I actually made an attempt to play down the situation. Player0 then started attacking y371 in the public forum thread using the content of y371's PM's to me. I got offended at the invasion of privacy over this, called Player0 on his bullshit practises, he threatened to ban me, and I basically said "Fine. Do it! I want no part of a forum who's administrators behave in this way".

The LN admin's, primarily lead by Player0 on a rampage, presumably because he was upset that somewhat wasn't kissing his ass and taking his word as gospel, decided to ban me after I requested that my account be cancelled. One of the LN forum admins subsequently contacted me by email to express his disappointment at the way Player0 had been acting, but also stated that I had said some things in the past which caused this action, but had declined to inform me just what they were.

Frankly I was appalled at the level of personal attacks levelled at myself by Player0 when I had pretty much just been reacting to his attacks on my work. He was basically calling me a liar and a corporate whore when I stated that I made no money on the blocks I make. All without foundation though.

I'm glad to never be a part of the LN community. My memories of that place have been going there a number of times to defend baseless attacks on my work and character, and I can only assume that this is the "history" to which Player0 refers. Obviously he's just a bit pissed at people that don't swallow his crap. I've never had such problems at any other forums that I visit. Anyone who has known me for some time now will know that I conduct myself in a very level-headed fashion and do my best to avoid making any form of personal attacks, whether publically or privately. Basically what Player0 describes as my behavior simply is not the way that I act.

If anyone has the issue, it is him. I still have no idea as to what caused the antipathy in the first place that was rampant over at LN towards me. I'm glad to never be involved at that site again.

[pHaestus]

Re: Cathar's banning:

Good riddance to bad rubbish imo. After all, you, BillA and I have done more damage to this forum than you can possibly know.

[jaydee]

To much stuff going on in here to take every post apart and reply.

BE, it is a very bad thing that WES would want to do more reviews. Read the second quote in my sig and that says enough about why. As for my posts not helping get he articles pulled? Whatever. Also even if the jets where not the same on both tests it wouldn't matter. You could put the best jet in the TDX and it still would not beat the MCW6002 by 6C period. They guy can't even keep a system without selling it for money. I would highly recommend not bother doing more reviews. What happens if he needs money again? Sell the test bench again? People need to stay out of things they not only refuse to do half way right but cannot support.

Wes63: I am SURE you are good guy and nothing here is meant to attack you as a person, just your position on this review deal. I am done with the issue until you review something else badly.

PlayerO: We had our differences in the past and I stayed out of this PM issue and anything else you said here. I will state PM's are meant to be Private. People expect them to be but surely that is not a guarantee they are not. If your TOS says mods and admins can read them then that just adds another reason not to go to your site not that you care (which is to bad as you have a good user base and could make something of the site). Also I don't believe ProCooling claims to be competing with any site (just my assumption) which is one reason this remains the only site I regularly post at. That will not change until Joe or pH as me to leave or ban my ass permanently. Anyway I got nothing else to really say to you that the others havn't already.

Also to BE, I will not change my attitude or posting manner. I already toned it down and that is it. I treat these people the same I do the people that I am in charge of at work. If they can't do the job or are not doing it the way is needs to be done and rufuse to change they are gone. Reviewers are doing a job, they can't be allowed to do it of they can't do it right (or acceptable). Trying to pamper the ass obviously has failed miserably. Ever since we started slagging these reviews these reviewers now at least know there is one site that will cut their bull shit down. It is making progress slowly but surely. People are much more aware of what "should" be done in a review. Wes63 opening line in his article and first post in the thread proves it.

[Player0]

The content of the posts and PM's at LN are no longer available for me to defend myself
Its all there. Use the search button.

http://www.liquidninjas.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=7823
http://www.liquidninjas.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=7833

I don't know if Cathar is still banned from LN... I haven't been back to the forums.

You visited several times for over a month after he was banned asking several different questions. Just a quick Find All Posts by...

I suggest that if you wish to continue trying to slander it, back it up with proof. Its easy to put words in my mouth that I never said. But, anyone is welcome to go read the truth.

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by Player0

The content of the posts and PM's at LN are no longer available for me to defend myself
Its all there. Use the search button.

Search button and a user's post history search at LN does not work for those without active accounts.

Looking through those threads again, I see nothing where I attacked you personally, except for when I had a go at you after it was obvious you were reading PM's. Plenty of personal attacks levelled at me by yourself though prior to that.

[pHaestus]

As far as I know, no PMs have ever been read by Procooling. For sure I don't have that ability nor do the other moderators. Jow may have that ability as the vbb admin but I'm not sure he has ever exercised it. Seems like asking for trouble because as soon as you are looking through PMs you become liable/responsible for illegal things done via PM...