My WB: EK-MCW

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by unregistered

several of you are confusing economics (existing products) with intrinsic performance capability
consciously designed products have a price/performance 'target'
all are not race cars, though all will make that claim

We also have to consider what is possible to make as opposed what would work if it could be made.

EDIT: Maybe you just said that?

[jaydee]

What would be good is pins that have pins on them. Kinda like the Swiftech Air coolers that have pins with fins around the pins.

[bigben2k]

Originally Posted by jaydee116

Is that a wrong conclusion?
...

I believe it is, yes. On the other hand, if you were able to minimize the spacing between the pins, you might have something.

The Cascade/G5 has a (relatively) simple inlet, and you'd be hard pressed to re-create that kind of flow on a pin-style block; the flow spreads radially as it hits the baseplate, hence the "cups", then the "fins". Since it spreads radially, its only natural for the space between the fins to be in the shape of a circle; that's the conclusion that I came to, when I dreamed up the idea.

So JD, I'll give you your point, you might be right, but you'll have to give me that it'd be complicated to optimize the flow the same way.

Deal?

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by bigben2k

I believe it is, yes. On the other hand, if you were able to minimize the spacing between the pins, you might have something.

Nexxos XP?

The Cascade/G5 has a (relatively) simple inlet, and you'd be hard pressed to re-create that kind of flow on a pin-style block; the flow spreads radially as it hits the baseplate, hence the "cups", then the "fins". Since it spreads radially, its only natural for the space between the fins to be in the shape of a circle; that's the conclusion that I came to, when I dreamed up the idea.

So your changing the definition of a fin to fit your argument. The G5 dosn't have fins.

So JD, I'll give you your point, you might be right, but you'll have to give me that it'd be complicated to optimize the flow the same way.

Deal?

If we agreed the G5 had fins maybe. Also note those little bumps in the middle of the cups on the G5.

I don't see anything that can be called fins here. The material around the cups is the base of the block as the water flows over the top of that material.. If the water flowed through that material such as Eddy's block then those are called fins.

IMO the Cascade-G5 blocks are not pins or fins, even though the G4/5 has pins in the cups.

The argument from the start has been between pins and fins, not the likes of the Cascade-G5 series.

[jaydee]

Also, even you you wanted to make the claim the G4 has fins it still is not much better than the Nexxos XP. And what is the thing that would put the G4 over the Nexxos? Probably the little pins in the cups.
Note I didn't add the G5 because the G5 is SILVER so unless there was a silver Nexxos XP we can't realistically compare the performance of the design.

[bigben2k]

Yeah, the material between the cups are fins. (Just because the rest of the surface wasn't machined down, doesn't mean that there are no fins )

As for the Nexxos, yeah, given enough water pressure, you can make it look good...
http://www.procooling.com/reviews/ht..._waterbloc.php

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by bigben2k

Yeah, the material between the cups are fins. (Just because the rest of the surface wasn't machined down, doesn't mean that there are no fins )

As for the Nexxos, yeah, given enough water pressure, you can make it look good...
http://www.procooling.com/reviews/ht..._waterbloc.php

Given enough water pressure? Same goes for the G4.... They both have similar pressure drops. Either that or pH cut short the flow test on the G4. Usually he stops when he maxes out the system. If that is the case then there is only .75GPM seperating the 2 blocks.

I still don't see your argument for the fins in the G4 nore your argument for fins being better. Using the G4 is a bad example anyway as your so called fins are only a secondary cooling source. Most of the cooling is on the base itself on the bottom of the cups. On a true fin block the majority of the cooling effect will be from the fins itself, this is not so on the G4.

[Cathar]

Easy to achieve 1.4-1.5gpm using a G5/G4 with a slightly strong 12v rail (~12.5v) from the PSU using one of a number of 12V DC pumps in a full-system. Pressure-drop differences are not huge in comparison to some other blocks, but certainly significant, and tell a different story to what a straight look at a flow vs C/W chart will give.

http://www.procooling.com/reviews/as...cpu-air_sm.jpg

I do, however, not consider the Storm design to be a pin nor a fin block block, and certainly not in the channelled sense as typically applies to every other example of a pin/fin block.

The Storm design actually has less wall mass and surface area than a pin block of similar size given a certain CPU heat source.

IMO, the Storm design is not something which should be used as an argument for pin vs fin. It is a poor example of either.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by Cathar

Easy to achieve 1.4-1.5gpm using a G5/G4 with a slightly strong 12v rail (~12.5v) from the PSU using one of a number of 12V DC pumps in a full-system. Differences are not huge in comparison to other blocks, but certainly significant, and tell a different story to what a straight look at a flow vs C/W chart will give.

http://www.procooling.com/reviews/as...cpu-air_sm.jpg

I do, however, not consider the Storm design to be a pin nor a fin block block, and certainly not in the channelled sense as typically applies to every other example of a pin/fin block.

The Storm design actually has less wall mass and surface area than a pin block of similar size given a certain CPU heat source.

IMO, the Storm design is not something which should be used as an argument for pin vs fin. It is a poor example of either.

Sums up my argument about the Cascade-G5 series. And yes, pressure drop data will be a nice addition to pH testing.

[Eddy_EK]

Uf... you have posted lots of posty over my night sleep
I think that I have read them all, and some of them aren't the real discussino over pins and fins.
Anyway I am still saying that if we compare WB with the same measures and one with pins and second with fins, the WB with fins would preform better. I have tested it!
Anyway I agree that pH should include pressure drop in testing method.

[BillA]

"I have tested it!"
lol, sure
that you are a competent machinist is apparent
that your testing demonstrated something to you can be accepted
that your testing demonstrated the conclusion you state is your assertion only

provide the test matrix and data, and your analysis leading to your statement
or understand that you sound like a blowhard

[cougem]

Say please.
Or understand that you sound like a twat.

This guy's been lovely, give him some respect.

[BillA]

if telling him that data talks is twatish to your ears, get a filter
asking for substantiation is dis-respectful ? (on procooling ???)
head on over to OCF and you will be among friends

[bigben2k]

It's a rather vague statement (Eddy_EK's), and most definitely requires a lot more information.

Eddy_EK, you're being slammed for making a bold statement without backup. Personally I'd like to see how you came to that conclusion. Care to share?

[BillA]

who is slamming him ?
"provide the test matrix and data, and your analysis leading to your statement
or understand that you sound like a blowhard"

is that not a conditional statement ?
jeez fellows, let us read what's written

[Eddy_EK]

I have tested WB whoes pictures are on page 1, and I can tell you that WB with pins was almost 2°C worst than the other one.
That was tested on CPU simulator with 100W, and core size 100 square mm. I had 1/2" ID tubes and L30 water pump. The temperatures were tested on 0,03 °C resolution.
And Bill... I dont have that much equipment as you, but I can tall you that my tests are statisticly comparable and repeatable.
I am not newbie as you might think.

[bigben2k]

Granted, you may have examined some existing designs that indicate a 2 deg minimal difference, but I believe that the conclusion may be hasty; is it in fact impossible for a pin-style block to match a fin-style block's performance? (which appears to be your claim, unless we misunderstood it).

[BillA]

EE
perhaps you do not appreciate the enormity, the inclusivity of your assertion:
"I am still saying that if we compare WB with the same measures and one with pins and second with fins, the WB with fins would preform better."

what do you have to know in order to justify the above ?
1) the optimum fin design for your conditions
and
2) the optimum pin design for your conditions
then
3) you could conclude which was better for your conditions

sooo . . . . .
do I think you know the optimum fin design (for ANY condition(s)) ? not just no. but hell no
do I think you know the optimum pin design (for ANY condition(s)) ? not just no. but hell no
- I am pretty sure of this even if we define 'optimum' not as the best possible, but merely better than all others

so I will be polite and refer back to post #61

[bigben2k]

Originally Posted by unregistered

who is slamming him ?...

Sorry, I'm just used to a different style coming from you.

[BillA]

no Ben, we should exercise a bit more care when dealing with non-native English speakers
(like you ?) j/k

[Eddy_EK]

Originally Posted by unregistered

EE
perhaps you do not appreciate the enormity, the inclusivity of your assertion:
"I am still saying that if we compare WB with the same measures and one with pins and second with fins, the WB with fins would preform better."

what do you have to know in order to justify the above ?
1) the optimum fin design for your conditions
and
2) the optimum pin design for your conditions
then
3) you could conclude which was better for your conditions

sooo . . . . .
do I think you know the optimum fin design (for ANY condition(s)) ? not just no. but hell no
do I think you know the optimum pin design (for ANY condition(s)) ? not just no. but hell no
- I am pretty sure of this even if we define 'optimum' not as the best possible, but merely better than all others

so I will be polite and refer back to post #61

I said just what I have learned with testing, that the same charasteristics of the block would make the difference I have stated.
But I can't say, because I don't know which 'optimum' design would be better, and I never mented to make discussion about it, because I can't prove it (yet). :shrug:

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by cougem

Say please.
Or understand that you sound like a twat.

This guy's been lovely, give him some respect.

Please STFU. How's that? j/k

I been traveling all day and finally got to my Hotel in GA. Looks like the discussion is over here for me anyway. Eddy, "please" work on your testing methods and equipment.

[bigben2k]

Originally Posted by jaydee116

... Eddy, "please" work on your testing methods and equipment.

Hence why I put the WBTA together. I just added a multi-language support module, for instant translations. More to come on this.

[Eddy_EK]

Come on Jaydee... I am not greenhorn on testing, but I can assure you that you will be hearing of my testing method and equipment... When I put it all together for other eyes...

[BillA]

EE
sounds good, 'we' do support testing and those who do it
just need to be prudent with sweeping statements

BTW, my comment about your not being able to make an optimum design was not vs. myself;
I too am unable to make an optimum anything - always too many unknowns