What is the most active and best watercooling forum???

[brucoman]

you need to realize the air exhaust of a rad is usually about 2c warmer than intake air...not a big deal really

[Mathelo]

Originally Posted by brucoman

you need to realize the air exhaust of a rad is usually about 2c warmer than intake air...not a big deal really

I do realize that but I can't get over the idea that if the CPU is putting off a 100+ watts of heat, it would be better for the rad to be outside of the case no matter the temp. delta on the rad.

Has anyone done the math on this? Has anyone compared the cooling performance of the same system but with the internal on one and external on the other?

L

[LPorc]

Originally Posted by Mathelo

I do realize that but I can't get over the idea that if the CPU is putting off a 100+ watts of heat, it would be better for the rad to be outside of the case no matter the temp. delta on the rad.

Has anyone done the math on this? Has anyone compared the cooling performance of the same system but with the internal on one and external on the other?

L

No math, but let's take a look at the issue.

Without water cooling air is already moving through the case with a hot CPU heatsink. So, even if the radiator exhaust is into the case, there can be no more heat in there than if we were air cooling.

But wait! Water has a much higher specific heat capacity than air, meaning the water is not heated as much as the air would have been. So we're going to be better than air even if we blow our radiator exhaust into the case, because it isn't going to be a warm as the air in the case if we were air cooling.

Certainly we could be cooling more efficiently, but we're already doing better than air cooling. At this point the question is what works.

I'd reckon that pretty much any rig has had compromises made (knowingly or unknowingly) that reduce their effectiveness in certain terms. The thing to remember is that a VW Bug, Ferrari sports car, Hummer (HMMWV type, not the new H2 crap), and Semi all get from point A to point B on the highway at the legal speed limit despite different gearings and design choices (cheap to produce, high performance in terms of speed and handling, off road performance, cargo capacity).

[jaydee]

It is all a matter of perspective. Some people pay $100+ for 1-2C. Thats the difference between a $40 MCW6000 and a $140ish+ Silver G5 Storm.....

[brucoman]

Originally Posted by Mathelo

I do realize that but I can't get over the idea that if the CPU is putting off a 100+ watts of heat, it would be better for the rad to be outside of the case no matter the temp. delta on the rad.

Has anyone done the math on this? Has anyone compared the cooling performance of the same system but with the internal on one and external on the other?

L

sure an external might do better, but then:

it is no longer a "normal" looking PC (I like stealth these days)
no longer portable (for LAN's, parties etc)
volume of space used
& having the Woman say "You are NOT putting that in my family room!"

[Mathelo]

Originally Posted by LPorc

No math, but let's take a look at the issue.

Without water cooling air is already moving through the case with a hot CPU heatsink. So, even if the radiator exhaust is into the case, there can be no more heat in there than if we were air cooling.

But wait! Water has a much higher specific heat capacity than air, meaning the water is not heated as much as the air would have been. So we're going to be better than air even if we blow our radiator exhaust into the case, because it isn't going to be a warm as the air in the case if we were air cooling.

But we still have the same amount of heat to exhaust (actually more because of the pump)? Seems to me that the water-cooling advantage over air-cooling is a combination of the higher specific heat capacity of water, more surface area to work with on the rad, and an increased volume of airflow. If we keep airflow volume more-or-less equal, than results should be the same for ac and wc.

So, for a design goal of both quiet and oc, we'd want to have:

- Higher heat capacity of water (additives?)
- Larger rad (I recall that Cathar has demonstrated diminishing returns here)
- Lower air volume to keep noise levels down or very large air volume sufficient to keep noise down. The consensus seems to be that more fans don’t generally lower noise even if running slow, so we’re probably talking passive here.
- Sound insulation

This translates to a higher temperature delta at the rad being an important variable if we want to achieve quiet WITH high oc.

Bringing this back to design goals and compromises that need to be made, if you don’t have to vent the rad into the same chamber as the heat source and you have space, a separate rad box should be better.

L

[Mathelo]

Originally Posted by brucoman

sure an external might do better, but then:

it is no longer a "normal" looking PC (I like stealth these days)
no longer portable (for LAN's, parties etc)
volume of space used
& having the Woman say "You are NOT putting that in my family room!"

I have no need for portability or "normal" (and a lot of what goes for normal today I have no interest in) and I can pretty much do what I want as far as the wife is concerned so long as it stays in my doghouse.

L

[brucoman]

Originally Posted by Mathelo

But we still have the same amount of heat to exhaust (actually more because of the pump)? Seems to me that the water-cooling advantage over air-cooling is a combination of the higher specific heat capacity of water, more surface area to work with on the rad, and an increased volume of airflow. If we keep airflow volume more-or-less equal, than results should be the same for ac and wc.

So, for a design goal of both quiet and oc, we'd want to have:

- Higher heat capacity of water (additives?)
- Larger rad (I recall that Cathar has demonstrated diminishing returns here)
- Lower air volume to keep noise levels down or very large air volume sufficient to keep noise down. The consensus seems to be that more fans don’t generally lower noise even if running slow, so we’re probably talking passive here.
- Sound insulation

This translates to a higher temperature delta at the rad being an important variable if we want to achieve quiet WITH high oc.

Bringing this back to design goals and compromises that need to be made, if you don’t have to vent the rad into the same chamber as the heat source and you have space, a separate rad box should be better.

L

as usual, these are generalizations, there are always exceptions

decent water setup will cool the CPU far better than any air setup, for less noise, no exceptions (with same or less noise)

adding additives decreases water's thermal capacity

bigger the rad the better

sound insulation is fine if desired

agreed, if you dont have to vent inside case great, but it really won't change CPU temps to even close air cooled temps

[marcuri]

note to self: get replys on procooling by having a thread title that implicitily implies that the forums suck ;p

on a more serious note: procooling rocks, its definately alittle dead around here but there were plenty of people who helped me configure my wc setup for my new comp, just took aday or two longer to get replys than in other forums. theres plenty of great past info that can be found by searching and the stickies (esp the pump comparison) are also useful. by far you'll find the most experienced here and thus get the best advice instead of people talking out of there ass like on other forums.... a problem which isn't limited to water cooling although water cooling, since its not mainstream, does have a bit more disinformation than other 'topics'.

if i were you, stick to these forums, and don't stray too far.


as for external mounting, i'm about to try it for my first time.. and i'm doing it with a lian li v2000a (huge case if you didn't know). its good if you don't want to cut anything for those larger rads like a 2 or 3 x 120mm to fit in or at the very least not cut the case much.. (to get the 1/2"in 3/8od tubing inside i'm probably going to have to cut the case alittle bit) and it will drop the temps a bit as well from what i've heard. the swiftech rad box is $24 and its a good option imo... i'll let you know how easy it is to use when i finally get these wc parts that have been sitting next to my new rig for 2 weeks installed.

anyway, good luck.

[Brians256]

The advantage of water over air is NOT quiet unless you are overclocking, in my experience. I have a really quiet setup with only air but it certainly isn't overclocked. For overclocking, you can't beat water (unless you go sub-ambient with peltiers and/or phase change etc...).

Why?

Pump noise and fan noise.

With a pure air setup that is not overclocked, I find it hard to beat the quietness of a CPU fan that isn't even ON most of the time. This setup is an Athlon64 Venice 3000+ running stock right now (haven't gotten to overclocking it yet or putting water in there).

[Long Haired Git]

Well, with my silent eheim 1250, and my radiator without fans on, and with the same overclock as my FOP38, I'd disagree.

[Mathelo]

Originally Posted by marcuri

note to self: get replys on procooling by having a thread title that implicitily implies that the forums suck ;p

So hopefully providing a new title will fix that.

on a more serious note: procooling rocks, its definately alittle dead around here but there were plenty of people who helped me configure my wc setup for my new comp, just took aday or two longer to get replys than in other forums. theres plenty of great past info that can be found by searching and the stickies (esp the pump comparison) are also useful. by far you'll find the most experienced here and thus get the best advice instead of people talking out of there ass like on other forums.... a problem which isn't limited to water cooling although water cooling, since its not mainstream, does have a bit more disinformation than other 'topics'.

if i were you, stick to these forums, and don't stray too far.

I agree, hence my frustration but I digress ...

as for external mounting, i'm about to try it for my first time.. and i'm doing it with a lian li v2000a (huge case if you didn't know). its good if you don't want to cut anything for those larger rads like a 2 or 3 x 120mm to fit in or at the very least not cut the case much.. (to get the 1/2"in 3/8od tubing inside i'm probably going to have to cut the case alittle bit) and it will drop the temps a bit as well from what i've heard. the swiftech rad box is $24 and its a good option imo... i'll let you know how easy it is to use when i finally get these wc parts that have been sitting next to my new rig for 2 weeks installed.

With such a big box I'd be more than a little temped to go internal.

anyway, good luck.

Thanks!

L

[marcuri]

heh don't worry about the thread title so much.. you're getting replies and since you explained it no one is taking it negatively... i was trying to make a joke about it.

as for the v2000 case.. yea i'm definately more than alittle tempted to go internal mounting as well.. its like having a minifridge in the room... its 2 feet tall, 2 feet deep, 8 inches wide.... but believe it or not you still need to do alittle cutting to fit a 2x120mm rad in the case. The only place you can fit it without cutting (for a 2x120 mm+ radiator) is placing it where the where the 5.25" bay drives are and moving the dvdrw drive down to the lowest 5.25" slot. even then you can only have one drive, which screws me over cause i was planning on using the 5.25" bay res. that i bought in the case and such a setup would exclude that.... i'm starting to think that cutting wouldn't be so bad... its just where to cut......

also if you're considering the v2000 and don't care *too* much about temps a 2x80mm rad fits perfectly above the psu (see pics: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowIm...e%20-%20Retail)

[Mathelo]

Originally Posted by marcuri

heh don't worry about the thread title so much.. you're getting replies and since you explained it no one is taking it negatively... i was trying to make a joke about it.

as for the v2000 case.. yea i'm definately more than alittle tempted to go internal mounting as well.. its like having a minifridge in the room... its 2 feet tall, 2 feet deep, 8 inches wide.... but believe it or not you still need to do alittle cutting to fit a 2x120mm rad in the case. The only place you can fit it without cutting (for a 2x120 mm+ radiator) is placing it where the where the 5.25" bay drives are and moving the dvdrw drive down to the lowest 5.25" slot. even then you can only have one drive, which screws me over cause i was planning on using the 5.25" bay res. that i bought in the case and such a setup would exclude that.... i'm starting to think that cutting wouldn't be so bad... its just where to cut......

also if you're considering the v2000 and don't care *too* much about temps a 2x80mm rad fits perfectly above the psu (see pics: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowIm...e%20-%20Retail)

I've already got the PA160.1, so I'm committed on that front. My choice is to go external with my existing case - an Antec SLK3000B - or get a P180 and go the route that brucoman has gone with an internal setup. That case looks perfect for the PA160.1. After the install you still have three 5.25" bays above and room for 4 (3?) hdd below. That is plenty for me. And the case is quiet.

L

[Marci]

End of the day, if dumpin' heat from the rad back into the case is of such a big concern, make a duct going from internal face of rad to a vent in a sidepanel. Rad only dumps heat into case if you want it to / let it.