Apogee from Swiftech...

[Albigger]

Originally Posted by bobo5195

The thin point is at a stress concentration (a corner) as well, they could of easily curved that section and got rid fo the problem. If they've doen the injection moulding dies now then they can't really change it.

Not totally true, as it would be part of a male radius on the mold half, they could cut it larger to increase the thickness, or drop the level of the elliptical hump on the underside. Of course this would involve pulling the mold from the production line and having each cavity re-machined, no doubt very costly...

[bobo5195]

and test that the mould was still valid and associated restart costs. Agreed its cheaper than a new mould but its mega $$$, for what is ultimately a small company. Considering the whole bill and money thing it does not bode well especially for something that anyone could spot. They might just leave it and accept the return rate.

[maxSaleen]

I just wanted to throw my opinion up on the board, I'll state first that I've read very little of this thread.

I'll give swiftech props for:

1. Having an appropriately sized base. Any reason to have Cu covering more than the IHS? No. This reduces costs and will probably be a trend you see in the rest of the industry.

2. Injection molded top. Reduces costs. Koolance realized this a while ago. So what if Swiftech screwed up the design of it? Hopefully no one will man-handle the block enough to crack the top.

3. Pins. Always a good thing in my opinion (granted Stew's cups do perform pretty damn well).

What I'll fault Swiftech for:

1. It may appear to me that Swiftech is trying to ride the good name of the Storm with this block. Aesthetically the blocks are very similar, and the performance numbers that they provide hint that the Apogee will perform nearly as well as the Storm. What do you think the average consumer will think here? "Storm performance and 2/3 the price?" Obviously not so, from Robotech's recent results.

2. Also, I'd fault them for the damn issues with the Cu shavings. What happened to their legendary QC?

They had good intentions. Good ideas, even. They just screwed up the execution. Very un-Swiftech.

[JamesAvery22]

Originally Posted by maxSaleen

...snip...

1. It may appear to me that Swiftech is trying to ride the good name of the Storm with this block. Aesthetically the blocks are very similar, and the performance numbers that they provide hint that the Apogee will perform nearly as well as the Storm. What do you think the average consumer will think here? "Storm performance and 2/3 the price?" Obviously not so, from Robotech's recent results.

...snip...

They had good intentions. Good ideas, even. They just screwed up the execution. Very un-Swiftech.

If thats really what they did I wouldn't call that good intentions in any way. Nothing more than a con. Doing something great for someone to gain their trust then screwing them over the next time because they now have faith in you.

I really really hope that wasn't the intention. Just thinking about it leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.

[maxSaleen]

I had the same thoughts about the whole Storm -> Apogee progression. The only thing is that it would appear that the Apogee was a throw together job, one that wasn't entirely thought out, whereas the Storm deal seems to have taken some colaboration (and probably a fair amount of time) with Stew to get it to mass market.

[BillA]

no biggie to change the tooling, thicker is doable

Inco
agree with Les, not damning; honest data but confusing
very BAD marketing in any case, of a product with obvious design, manufacturing, and QC problems
textbook example of how not to launch a product

[Albigger]

Originally Posted by BillA

textbook example of how not to launch a product

maybe they collaborated with microsoft prior to launch
<cough> xbox360 <cough>

[BillA]

Originally Posted by bobo5195

and test that the mould was still valid and associated restart costs. Agreed its cheaper than a new mould but its mega $$$, for what is ultimately a small company. Considering the whole bill and money thing it does not bode well especially for something that anyone could spot. They might just leave it and accept the return rate.

I sure hope not, but the mounting plate sits over the thin spots (?)
Gabe will try to ignore it if possible, cannot afford to scrap thousands of plates
underside 'fix' easiest probably
still worse yet for pr

[gone_fishin]

Originally Posted by bobo5195

The thin point is at a stress concentration (a corner) as well, they could of easily curved that section and got rid fo the problem. If they've doen the injection moulding dies now then they can't really change it.

IMO, it looks bad if you just see the cross section like that but you would never break it there unless you scored it first.

I guess they are too lazy to run a wire brush over each one before shipping, that is why you see all the shavings from the sawing process on the mill.

[Albigger]

Originally Posted by gone_fishin

IMO, it looks bad if you just see the cross section like that but you would never break it there unless you scored it first.

It is true that the thin point happens only one place (the place where Lee took a section cut), however one has already posted about a leak in that spot (orkan).

[GlassMan]

The weak spot is right where the most stress will be put when mounting the tubing (especially the 2nd) and it absolutely dumb to have a near corner there, a few passes of a file on the mold could have fixed it.

With those fittings so close together, no thick wall tubing.

[bobo5195]

99%+ of them plus are going to be fine and never break but even if a few do thats still $$$ for nothing, i wouldnt expect swiftech to be sigma 6(1 in a million defects) but still. I was basing it on the fact that if orkans broke and its an obvious design fault, then it just seems money for nothing. Stress concentration means that a crack is may develop there and its in a very good place to cause damage.Also i would imagine temprature changes and normal use might cause a crack to develop. Tehy wouldnt need to re done them all just except some returns and bad PR.

The copper shavings is more a damning piece of QC though. Those could well take out a few loops if they get lodged in the wrong places and it smacks of an unfinished blocks.

EDIT:
Would like to say overall that it does show how to make a good cheap waterblock, Designed to be made easily and perform well. In this case injection moulding maybe a good diea but there are advantages and disadvantages to any process. Such large batchs that the dies require lead to swifttech having significant libabilites which is never a good thing.

[Joe]

For those of you interested, and I know this is off topic, but since much of the discussion here would be tied to things that the Wiki would like to have logged, I wanted to point out I put a test of the ProCooling Wiki up:

http://www.procooling.com/wiki

It uses the Procooling forums login so just login there with the same name you use for the forums and you are good to go.

[jaydee]

What is the reason we review/test these blocks? I thought it was to give the reader and idea how well it would work in THEIR system. However from this page (http://www.systemcooling.com/swiftech_apogee-13.html) of that review and the discussion in this thread no matter what test bench or procedure we use we will simply not achieve the goal of telling the readers accurately what they want to hear. They don't want to hear "I got such and such results on my test bench but your results may very". That is pretty much what has been said and gives the reader no more info than before reading it. All I get from the review and this thread is buy one of 3 blocks (oops 2 have been discontinued, stuck with the Apogee) and hope it works well in your system.

So I am just failing to understand why we bother at this point.

Also note I am not discrediting Robo's work. he does a hell of a job with his reviews.

Might like to hear a little more insight and memory refreshment on what exactly we are achieving with our testing and if the results are actually benefiting anyone considering the discussion in this thread and the remarks from Robo on this page (http://www.systemcooling.com/swiftech_apogee-13.html) of his review.

[Orkan]

I was left with the same feeling jaydee.

Bottom line: No way will I stick a stock apogee in my loop. I've tested it, and it performs well, and has incredible flow... but without a re-machined top, it is useless.

Could be the best performing block in the world and it wouldn't make a difference when it leaks all over your sytem.

Talked to gabe on the phone. After he scorned me for fixing it with epoxy, he basically told me that the block is the best thing since sliced bread. I told him about the cracked top. He was pissed at me because I posted my results on the forums before talking to him.

I told him I tried calling several times throughout the weekend, but no one answered or returned my phone calls or emails. He said it was because he was back in the warehouse and couldn't hear the phone. Can't check messages? Can't return phone calls? Somehow it's my fault that you don't address one of your faulty products, and get pissed because I make it public? Guess you should have designed a more sturdy top eh? After looking at the X-section in that review, I can't believe that they would even put a product like this on the market.

Other quotes from that conversation:

"we have less metal shavings in the apogee than any of our previous blocks."
That is just plain scary... considering what I pulled out of mine. He also told me that I must have "SCRAPED" to get those shavings out. Basically informed me that the metal shavings shouldn't concern me, as they "aren't a problem."

"the apogee costs roughly 40% less to produce than the storm."
That is a big number. 40% less to make, yet retails for only 20% less. (roughly)

"the apogee is every bit as much of a quality product as the storm or any other of their blocks"
This is just a blaitant lie. My words to him were: "this block doesn't seem as beefy as your previous blocks, like the 5000 and 6000 series were..." His response: "beefy construction doesn't mean it will perform good." OHRLY!!!?!??!! Convenient excuse and clever dodging of the point in fact.

Touched on the subject of the guy that had his radiator damaged in shipping. Gabe said that guy was trying to "take swiftech on a ride." If I sell a product to my customer, and it is damaged in shipping... THEN I DIDN't PACK IT PROPERLY, and it is my responsibility.

I have an RMA setup for my cracked top. Gabe wants to "see exactly just how the crack occurred." I don't think I'm going to send it back. He made his bed, now he can lay in it. Simply patronized me on the phone by acting ignorant to how a crack could ever have occured in his indestructible "extreme" waterblock.

You'll dig this... my fav quote from the conversation:
"flow rate is everything in these new mutiple-block loops"
He drove it home that the apogee has roughly 3x less restriction than the storm... and how this means it will perform way better than the storm in systems with multiple blocks.

Not if it cracks and leaks on your components... chief.

On the phone with Gabe, I'd be lucky to get 2 words in edge-wise... as he made it clear that it was definately "user error" that caused the problem. Nevermind the fact that I don't recall anyone cracking the top of a storm.

Anyone remember the poly tops on the original WhiteWater blocks from D-Tek? I had one that cracked (like most). I called danny up, and he shipped me a new assembly NO QUESTIONS ASKED... on HIS DIME.

These guys want me to ship the block back to them at my cost, then "if we find that it is a manufacturing defect, we will send you a new block." I run a retail computer repair store, I have been building PC's since 1995 and been watercooling for the last 4 years... I know my way around computers and small components. If it was "user error" that cracked this block, then it does not belong in ANY user's hands.

I think I'll keep this one... since I'm going to make a new top for it myself anyway. At least I know my epoxied version isnt going to break.

[maxSaleen]

Thought you'd appreciate this Orkan. From another thread, originally posted by Robotech:

I contacted Swiftech and expressed my concerns about the shavings and thickness of the top housing. I was not surprised to receive an immediate reply and hear they were already aware of the concerns, had investigated them in-house, and have implemented corrective action where necessary. Here is a direct quote from Gabe:

Copper shavings: Nothing is loose shavings when delivered. Each base plate is inspected in production, and cleaned up. Some might have escaped scrutiny. After all, these pins are really tiny. The lady doing this is now using a big magnifying glass to see well. In any case, you really have to scrape them with a sharp tool to remove them, which is what she is doing. Also note that the bigger pieces (on the outside perimeter) that you showed on your site are actually left over pins from the machining not “shavings” or burrs. These are normally solidly attached to the base. Finally, we have also taken steps in production to completely eliminate any shavings using a new process.

Gabe is correct about the few tiny shavings I found. Too small to see until I hunted them down with a magnifying glass, and they did have to be pried out with a fine dental tool.

I inspected the “thin” areas as you mentioned, and they completely meet our specs. Pressure tests at 40 PSI resulted in no problems on 100’s of blocks (the pressure we test at). We also did some destructive testing this morning on 20 of these housings, using a heavy hammer and hitting the top of the housing (inlet & outlet), which places a direct stress on the alleged “weak” spots, and NONE failed. The entire housing will eventually disintegrate when hit hard enough, but we found absolutely no signs of stress related failures.

I read in Pro Cooling that some people are concerned about pushing the tube in and breaking the housing. Well, we “pushed the tube” on 20 blocks with repeated blows of a hammer… When you “push” hard enough, the housing will explode in pieces. I will therefore advise users who push the tubing that hard to wear protective glasses… Joke aside; I think your concerns with respect to the thickness of the wall are unfounded. The fact that ONE user reported a problem, problem that we cannot even verify since he epoxied the water-block does not mean that there is a problem with the housing. It means that either we did a poor job at QC, or that something else happened with this water-block that the user is not reporting.

I also decided to abuse the Apogee top cover I had sectioned, and found it to be very tough. Pushing, pulling, prying, etc. – in general applying a lot more force to the hose barb than I ever would under normal circumstances, without any signs of cracking or failure. I even gave it a few good whacks with a hammer and nothing.

[Jag]

About cracked tops and the resistance of DELRIN, check this stress test made using with a NexXxos Light (Delrin topped waterblock).
Source:http://watercoolplanet.de/index.php?open=2&show=111

[moonlightcheese]

i dunno many people who run die sims in their computers >_>

i've always thought it was rather ridiculous...

[maxSaleen]

Welcome to procooling, moonlightcheese. This is where die sims aren't rediculous and are almost the "norm" for testing. Hardcore, extreme, and as scientific as possible (most of the time) because.... we are?

[Joe]

Originally Posted by moonlightcheese

i dunno many people who run die sims in their computers >_>

i've always thought it was rather ridiculous...

many people think its obsurd until they sit back and think about testing and then realize the dynamic results you can get with a CPU, and the need for a known watt output. (how you think they get C/W ? you need to know the W to get the W and you need to be able to measure the C to get the C... on a CPU both are fuzzy numbers at best.)

[Annirak]

Simple answer: create a bootable CD that performs the same operation with a very small granularity. As in repeates ever milisecond. May not be 100% power output, but it sure is repeatable. If you want to vary the power, vary the V-core.

Insulate the loop, and measure power output at the radiator. This is not hard. Just pretend you're running a chiller in your system and you want to avoid condensation. Ignoring such an obvious solution is silly.

[Orkan]

Saleen,

I assume that I got one of the "first batch" blocks... that were rushed out to get distribution channels full. I just ordered another apogee to see if things are the same.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by Orkan

Saleen,

I assume that I got one of the "first batch" blocks... that were rushed out to get distribution channels full. I just ordered another apogee to see if things are the same.

What makes you think you will not get another first batch block?

[Orkan]

Doesn't really matter. I have uses for both the cracked one and this one.

the first one is, shall we say, "in dispose" ... Makes me giggle... and gabe cry.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by Orkan

Doesn't really matter. I have uses for both the cracked one and this one.

the first one is, shall we say, "in dispose" ... Makes me giggle... and gabe cry.

Let us know how it turns out.