Well! There is a third way!

[billbartuska]

Replace the TIM under the IHS

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=434429

[BillA]

rather dumb
why put the IHS back on ?

[ProHandyman]

Originally Posted by BillA

rather dumb
why put the IHS back on ?

For those who are hesitant of a bare core, there are shims that will work on the
A64s about... Remember seeing one somewheres. But I agree... why replace?

[TerraMex]

As far as I know, in comparison to my mod, leaving the IHS off does not give sufficient results to be better. If the thermal compound substitution is well done, most users will never ever experiencing a difference between this mod and without IHS.

this deserves an icon :

Anyway, kudos for effort.

[BillA]

I can only imagine Cathar's heartburn over such a statement

as an aside, there seem to be a number of seriously stupid threads about
net clue dropping to a new nadir I suppose

[TerraMex]

net clue dropping to a new nadir

lost me there.
(language gap?)

[BillA]

Cathar wrote a brilliant exposition on the "net clue factor" describing the devolution of intelligent information/posters on 'technical' websites

perhaps someone will provide a link
(I'm too dumb, forgot it, lol)

[TerraMex]

roger.
a link would be nice (anyone?)

er, well, that's what you get when trying to apply "common sense".
not applicable. lots of history.

still my favourite is the aluminum cools better because is cooler to the touch.

[Joe]

well its common sense that sense is not common at all.

[BillA]

hey Joe, fint that post of Stew's; put it in the WIKI under 'truth'

[nikhsub1]

Originally Posted by BillA

hey Joe, fint that post of Stew's; put it in the WIKI under 'truth'

Bill there is a search function that does work

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...5&postcount=34

[BillA]

guilty as charged !
BTW, did I brown Stew off permanently ?

good to re-read, lots of the poisonous now
gonna beat up the H fools with it

[nikhsub1]

I think Stew is just taking a break from it all. He has said that he is going to do about 35 G7's, then call it quits

[BillA]

more to life than WCing
in a year will be quite passé

[Etacovda]

its getting decidedly boring now, really

nothing decent happening really - hell, even the 'is this ok for a system' threads are appearing here now - the clue factor is falling... id say PC is between plateau and the decline section now

The good posters have stopped posting. Hell, in certain other forums theres a select few that i actually despise now, who regurgitate bullshit in an attempt to sound informed, whilst being completely wrong... several on OCF, OCAU and XS.

[Joe]

Well guys... and I have been thinking about this.

There’s some factors at play here. Except for some temp probe calibration stuff (which I am nearly done with... if I just would sit down for a night and finish it) I personally don’t have the gear, the smarts, or the time to do cooling related testing. I wont attempt to do cooling reviews if I cant do them properly, there’s no reason for it.

Because of that, and the earthquake like collapse of long standing theories on how to test in the last 3 or 4 months... PC has stalled from a cooling standpoint completely.

Cathars observation is keenly accurate (about the life cycle of a site/forum). But the decline has been artificially accelerated by the down right abusive, immature (like the constant barbs Bill keeps throwing around in reference to Cathar... and vice versa), and overall condescending assaults that happened in the last 3 or 4 months. Seeing the best people in this lil niche scene going at it like high school girls trying to educate themselves with their own brand of logic, scared many people away (including pH). Not saying some or most of it wasn’t justified... but I think everyone can look back and see that emotion and ego took over the arguments far before actual technical discussion did.

ProCooling has gone in waves like this... if you remember back when the site started it happened (with me being the dumb shit), then years later, it was JayDee vs the world, and then it was BillA Vs the world. Yeh it will get boring, or what people perceive as boring. But its all relative to the action in the last few months with people daily tearing each others head off to prove some point. The "quiet" is a good thing now and then... hopefully lets people cool off, look at where stuff is going and come back to discuss it with a more level head.

If it doesn’t and people leave for good... so be it. The way I see it, while it may be wrong, but those who are too pussy to step up and help change this decline have no reason to bitch about it. I put months of work into getting the site updated so it survives, and more time into getting companies and sponsors working with us again. I am doing everything I can at this point. While Les, and other may give crap about LCD reviews, or "bogus" case reviews... it means nothing to me. What are you offering instead?

If you guys have an issue with the direction the site is going, speak up and clearly say it. This cryptic jabs and barbs get you no where. I think its pretty clear that pH nor me take ourselves or the site too seriously, we are guys who have outside hobbies, outside time requirements like everyone. We don’t get paid to work on the site, and we have no money paying for all the doodads and gizmos that you may want us to have. We also don’t have the time to do the testing you may want. So where does this leave us? Theres really no way we are going to "keep" people who are so arrogant, angry, or just overall "superior" to everyone on the site if they think they are just talking to neophytes all the time... So how do you fix that?, there is no such fix! It comes down to people becoming maybe a bit more humble or showing some humility knowing that they were once there themselves. Maybe getting over themselves? Either way its a fix we cant do... only they can.

So... in the mean time... we are doing what we can, when we can, and how we want.

This is just my rant on the state of the forum/site.

[Etacovda]

FWIW my 'decidedly boring' was about watercooling in general, not PC.

Personally this is all just observation for me, theres nothing i can do to 'change' any of it (and im not whining, as i said, its observation) - im not technically minded enough, nor do i have the $$$ or equipment to do anything about it, and I dont feel the need to change the decline. I believe that the decline has nothing significant to do with the forum members, I believe its about the hobby in general - watercooling has reached the plateau stage.

Watercooling is at the point where all the 'good' products have reached pretty much the peak of what they can do, and in which case reliability of parts + ease of set up are becoming more important, which directly results in more newbies buying parts etc.

Im sure as hell not 'blaming' anyone, i couldnt imagine even wanting to be a tester any more, with the bickering, turn arounds in testing methodology - pH's lack of work is completely understandable, a hobby is meant to be enjoyable, i cant imagine putting hours into it and then being told that its not good enough, or that all the work that has been done is pointless, etc. Screw that for a joke.

My personal observation -

watercooling has reached its plateau, and no new parts are likely to make any significant impact on it, therefore, whats to talk about thats new?

[Joe]

Ahh, yeh I get that too.. thats another reason that the work is going into getting established links with sponsors who dont really focus on cooling stuff. So we keep some diversity in our content since as Bill also sees... watercooling is going to go back to where it came from - the ultra niche.

[BillA]

I'm writing a response, but it will be some hours to craft well
in a bit
good comments guys

[BillA]

Good observations Joe, let me add a couple.

Technology moves on, easily seen in the last 5 years of the WCing scene; from amateurish 'designs' w/o technical basis to the sophistication of Stew's multiple jets. And from production 'lots' of 20 pieces to runs of several thousand pieces.
Note that there is not any necessary correspondence between performance and sales, though better performance is rewarded eventually.
The easy pickings (application of basic engn principles) have been done, novel inventions while possible are speculative; so WCing is maturing. Copying and tweaking with marketing spin define 'winning', not good for us gearheads.
- Are improvements possible ? Sure, but for ego not commercial success (my 'better' designs are hopelessly complex).

The controversy between Stew and myself over the capability of TTV based testing was hugely disruptive for the WCing community; and my refusal to cede, and pursuit of Stew wherever he promoted his 'view', devolved a technical disagreement into a personality clique debate. It was a debate that should have been based on numbers.

But with name-calling and personal aspersions there was no recovery. I am still here but have lost my peer, it is no fun and I'm moving on to the next phase. Understand my dismay, the professionals with whom I work would not consider putting up with the tripe dished out on the forums; I do because I have a debt - I started this career as a newbie and am inclined to help those with the motivation to do something (hey, get an education, lol). But the fun is gone and I continue out of the loose friendship I (presume to) have with pH, JoeK, and the many other serious posters on this forum.

I 'brought' scientific (calibration, optical flats, etc.) testing to public WCing but the inability of the 'heavy hitters' to agree on a testing methodology has effectively removed the 'clout' of such results. More and more one sees "performs the same on CPUs" as the public benchmark; it did not have to degenerate to this as there is an effective methodology. The inability of the procooling 'experts' to define a practical test bed and methodology has removed us from leadership in this area, and that is how it must be. Joe Citarella can compare IHS temps between the center and the edge. Think on it. More power to Joe to persevere with testing.

The future of CPU cooling as I 'see' it has little to do with DIY components, I intend to solder the 'solution' to the CPU. No reason to fret as these devices are more sophisticated than the DIYer can design or build, and they work far better as well. Such is progress, lower C/Ws are no cause for tears.

Be Cool

[Joe]

Very well worded Bill!

What I think we are seeing is that the sites that have a highly established revenue stream able to shift and re-focus on the new target. ProCoolings pretty non commercial, and non agressive M.O. hurts us big time in this. Theres simply no way that pH nor myself could afford such testing setups or put the time into using them properly.

The funny thing is, if you would have asked anyone on the forum here (except maybe you bill and a few others) if we were heading toward a major re-write on testing methodologies and one of the largest shakeups in cooling review stuff... I think everyone would have said "no".

I do think the gun shot has gone off and we are just hanging at the starting line drinking a beer

Really the funny thing is... if I had a house I would prolly be working my ass off for testing stuff... I just dont have room here even if I had money and time (also the temp swings in this apt are killer!)

Besides for Cathar looking to move onto other things, we also see JayDee walking away, and many other active members from here doing the same. Its sad and a pretty serious loss for the site.

But one thing to be said... is the sites not going away. So while we may be lag'n now (for cooling reviews, stepping it up for general review and article action)... maybe its for the better, let everyone fight out the new testing methods and jump in once we let everyone else spend the time and money getting useable data. Thats the glass half full view of the current sitaution

[BillA]

the sad thing is that the transition could have been done seamlessly, groove an Intel CPU and move along
but we got hung up on AMD sans IHS, a 'perfect' die sim (which cannot be defined), and a non-Intel stance

and the mainstream passed us by

the extremest base will not support the site, nor permit change

pissed me off bigtime, this was preventable; except Stew would not shut up

[Joe]

Bill lets be honest... you didnt do much to cool the situation, you just fed into him and him into you.

And I agree it could have been seemless, but we neither had an Intel 775 platform to test on, or the money for one (and wont really for the next few months). So we would be behind anyway!

Also something I am eager to look at and hear how its implementation is, is the AM2 socketed CPU's... the theory is they use the same soldered TIM that Intel uses.

[HammerSandwich]

Originally Posted by BillA

net clue dropping to a new nadir I suppose

So things are about to get better? More likely we've hit a limb partway down the precipice.

[BillA]

Joe, more than that - I never relented for an instant; it was to me a purely technical issue
as it remains
had a consensus been reached I'd have grooved my P4 hottie immediately
w/o the consensus I was fighting the 'world', don't gain from that at all

had not heard of a new AMD Tim1, not too surprising

HS
depends on the core group
my wind tunnel is continuing as a hobby now,
and I doubt the site will ever be at the 'poisonous' level such as H or xtreme (catch the locked thread at H ?)
lots of sharp people here with a technical education and relevant experience