An End to the Insanity.

[Joe]

Well as you all have seen that the Pro/Forums of late (ever since the epically average Apogee crap storm started) have evolved into a nasty place. There is just lots of mud slinging, name calling, banter, and other completely un productive things going on. These have been going on by some of the most veteran names in this field.

Derek and myself don’t take ProCooling so seriously that we need to moderate posts, or control what people say. We figure your all mature folks because if you weren’t, you prolly wouldn’t be here. So we try to keep the spam out and let people sort shit out for themselves. That’s worked pretty much for the last 6 years this sites been online.

The people involved with this realized what was going on, and sometimes even realized how much they were hurting ProCooling and the forums by doing it. But that didn’t stop anything. Currently the forums live in a state where everyone is just waiting for the next flame war, or next battle of the titans. I have been passively and sometimes aggressively pushing for this stuff to stop, or at least return to a level where a normal adult could follow along.

That also has been unsuccessful. In turn we have lost many very good posters, many people who made the pro/forums what it was/is all over these petty pride/ego battles. Today that ends.

One of the parties involved have promised never to return in reply to me essentially saying "stop the shit or leave". The reason for the not wanting to ever come back is because there is so much bad blood now the internet is not big enough for the 2 of them it seems... How juvenile is that? I wasn’t expecting such a childish reply. But then again maybe I should have. The other party involved with the events of late has vowed to step back and not fight this anymore with the thought of also walking away if this continues. While it sounds noble, both are equally at fault and both were equal instigators in all this.

I don’t have the energy to tell grown men who are older than me how to act in a public setting. that’s not what we are here to do. But if it requires me to do drastic changes and start banning people for the sake of the community, then that’s what will happen.

This is a long winded post, but many of you have seen and been impacted by all this, and I thought you would like an explanation as to what we are seeing and doing about it.

To lower the chances of a flame war breaking out BillA's blog is going to be condensed into the cooling information area of the forum.

[Etacovda]

lol, dont worry joe, the damage is done already

watercooling 'science' is seriously on the way out, when things are assumed and the 'enthusiasts' (not my emphasis) are considered idiots.

Which is ironic, given enthusiasts have made more advances than the 'professionals'....

(that was my emphasis)

[Joe]

To be honest... I know the damage has been done... it was done 3 months ago. But I just dont want to have to baby sit the forum. And yes watercooling as a progressive and changing industry is going to slow drasticly coming up. Thats one of the reasons my push for testing and such has sorta tapered off... I am going back to the roots of how the site started.

I am running it how I want, and with what I want posted on it. We lasted 6 years this way... we will not be going away anytime soon.

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by Joe

One of the parties involved have promised never to return in reply to me essentially saying "stop the shit or leave". The reason for the not wanting to ever come back is because there is so much bad blood now the internet is not big enough for the 2 of them it seems... How juvenile is that?

Joe is talking about me here. I will return to clarify this point, as it seems that Joe is not telling the whole truth.

Since it's time for soul baring....

I voluntarily stopped involving myself in Procooling for about 2 months (aside from the odd motorbike post), to see if the crap would pass. It didn't.

Over that time I have seen more and more long-term members cease to post, even when I had left well enough alone. The insults and jab did not stop though, nor were they ever kept in check, despite a number of magnanimous policies laid down, that never held up to much of anything. More and more often people would just say out of the blue in various locations "Man - Procooling has turned to shit!", and this was being said long after I voluntarily ceased to post here.

The crap didn't stop though, I had enough, and I had enough of the content here on Procooling that was destroying the site's quality.

I determined to make an effort. That effort was to bring things to head, to get the forum moderators to actually act on their policies that they were ignoring, and an attempt to see a return to more civil times here at Procooling.

Yes, I was acting like a bit of an ass, but doing so on purpose to get the forum moderators to act. Now it seems that they have. I consider my job here done.

In return, Joe decided to label me a baby and a juvenile, even though I had tried a number of times to raise the issue privately to him of the damage that Bill's unchecked slagging off of everything (not just me, everything) was causing to the forum's credibility overall. Again, I was just acting as a bearer of feedback that I had been receiving.

I guess that I shouldn't be surprised with Joe's attitude towards me. He's tried so hard to ignore the issue for so long that he's willing to lash out at anyone who forces him to wake up from his slumber.

I consider Bill's and mine personal differences to be minor in terms of the overall damage that Bill's presence was causing to Procooling as a whole. The continual bagging of other companies, the bagging of enthusiast ideas, the slamming of anyone who even remotely disagreed, and all within his private space where he could edit threads to suit his whim.

I opted to voluntarily leave Procooling, as I intimated to Joe, because of reasons of his attitude towards me. Nothing at all to do with Bill.

Joe. You needed a wake up call. I gave it. You responded immaturely when I forced your hand for the good of the forums as a whole.

That is why I chose to take another voluntary leave of absence.

Thank you.

[jaydee]

What is ironic is me having to close threads..... Not only did I never see that happening but certainly not to the individuals in question. Just got extremely tired of them and a few others I have respected over the years keep hashing it out over trivial things.

Anyway maybe we can put business aside and concentrate on the hobby.

[Etacovda]

Originally Posted by jaydee

Anyway maybe we can put business aside and concentrate on the hobby.

and i think this is the heart of the issue, personally. Procooling's testing has turned into whats 'correct' 'commercially'. The amount of nitpicking over half a degree is insane, considering the actual BENEFIT of that half a degree...

[Joe]

Stew... think what you may, but I left you grown men alone to sort out your own problems. I believe people should make their own moves in life and not rely on someone moderating what they see or hear.

Im just calling it as I see it.

And yes I am pissed that I need to get involved to break up a cat fight between 2 mature people. You'd think that you 2 could work this out yourself...

[snowwie]

aww i liked billa's blog: it required him to write more than just two lines per post

[pHaestus]

Meh

Since Bill defended the TTV and Swiftech (what 3-4 months ago?) you've had an agenda to discredit and attack him in every post. He handled this totally inappropriately and became a bitter antagonist of the enthusiast for some reason undecipherable to me. I'm sure that this change in the site is viewed as some big victory by you, when in fact we're just tired of listening to the both of you.

And now both will take their toys and go home. Stew said he's already redirected Procooling to 127.0.0.1 and Bill has vowed to never reply again as well.

So what did you guys accomplish? You burned a bunch of bridges, you ran a lot of people away from our site, you now you just run away when what we actually need is the community of active and interested people that you used to provide.

If there's anything to learn here it is that you shouldn't mix hobbies with business, you shouldn't mix friendships and business, and that you can't cut your friends any slack when they're acting up because they'll just shit in your living room and then flee the country.

[Angry_Steel]

Freaking mess. Almost every post for the last 3 months turns into some kind of big pee-pee contest. Is there relevant issues in the posts? Im sure there were, but usually after the first page they become lost in psycho-babble. Im sure people get enough of that in real life, as not to want to read it in cyberspace. So yea, someone needed to put the proverbial hammer down, and I think that there were ample warnings given where god and everyone could see them before the blow (Such as it was) fell.

Im sure that there are hints of truth somewhere in all of the accusational shrapnel that has been flying around, but due to the way it has been presented I could care less, as Im sure a lot of people feel. The truth has a way of making its own way to the surface, it doesnt need the kind of help its been getting here. Most people arent retards, and can figure out when they are getting okie-doked, or lied too, if someone has a point to make, make it, then let the chips fall where they may.

Notice the "Pro" in Pro-Cooling. Maybe not everyone is an expert in watercooling, but I'd like to think that it means more of how you should handle yourself here, i.e. professionally. There are enough forums around where people can go to get the daily fill of BS and other crap, its nice at the end of the day to come here and read 10 intelligent posts, rather than 100 worthless ones. Hopefully people will come to realize this and appreciate it, put aside the attitudes and give it another go, if not, well...

[flatline]

if leaveing/not posting coz your geting personaly attacked is childish count me in 2 as joe well knows i complained about this issue months b4 the apogee "insodent" and at that point i found billa's comments offensave not only to me and others but to the sight itself

about time something was done




flatline

[Joe]

No leaving becuase you are too immature to see that you are not only the cause of, but the key participant in the reasons you are being flamed... THATS childish. Leaving because someone calls you names over and over when you dont ask for it... that on the other hand is understandable and why we have lost good posters on here from getting caught in the cross fire.

Both of those guys are smart enough to know what they were doing... dont confuse the battles of pride for anything more than a pissing contest.

[bigben2k]

I think I hear Joe saying; "ya'll should have made the effort to address the difference yourselves".

Joe's right; this forum works best un-moderated, but relies on the ability of people to address their differences.

I bring you all the first google hit on the topic:
http://www.ctic.purdue.edu/KYW/Broch...eConflict.html

Not rocket science.

[BGP Spook]

I am a personal fan of "Rogerian argument."

Worth at least a google and few hours of study.

[Voodoo Rufus]

Reading the random threads here the past couple months has been pure frustration to the point that I have avoided reading this for the most part. This site has the potential for great creativity, but the flaming needs to stop. The loss of the capabilities of Bill and Cath is a great one here.

This is all total B.S., and in my mind, I have formed my own opinions on who has acted less poorly than the other.

[9mmCensor]

I have tried to reply to this thread many times.

I have had many differents slants on what I have said.

The common message in all my attempted posts has been:

It is sorry it came to this, lets move on.

[Strages]

I was invited to give a talk on watercooling at my university for ACM here on campus, I was going to point all those interested in future endeavors towards Pro/Cooling, mostly because of Cathar and Bill's past contributions. I'm not a regular here, I'm a regular over at OCForums, but this is my resource - when I need technical data or research, this is the first place I come. I'm incredibly heart-broken to see that the most important cooling site on the net, imho, is being threatened by the people that made it so great in the first place. I just hope that there are some kids out there that can pick up the pieces of this mess, whom have the same dedication to this hobby as myself and others. Not to mention the greats that are still here. It's pretty much up to the rest of us to make watercooling great again - and that may be the best thing of all.

[Joe]

I agree, and I think pHaestus nailed it right on the head with:

So what did you guys accomplish? You burned a bunch of bridges, you ran a lot of people away from our site, you now you just run away when what we actually need is the community of active and interested people that you used to provide.

[Etacovda]

I think the point is here, that if a reasonable person is this objectional about something, then they shouldnt be silenced about it if they have reasonable input.

Personally i dont believe how many people accepted the change to the TTV testing method, even though it flys in the face of everything else done in this site over the time ive been reading. The whole TTV thing, in my mind, has too many variables; others agree, but for some 'professionals' what they say, goes... which is pretty bloody useless for progress.

Im also amused that you're all surprised at the reaction of some of the people here. As i said to some people on irc yesterday, the TTV 'waterblock' (lol) tester seems to be the commercial 'excuse' for developing cheaper products. Thats the problem that watercooling co's face, the community believes (through hype, not realism) that the cpu block will make a seriously significant difference in clock speeds or performance. The reality is, that it wont. Procooling (whilst ive been reading, anyway) has been about that last half a degree, not about commercial viability and performance/price ratio (for both the consumer and the designer/manufacturer). The refusal to account for all the variables is an abhorrence to the fundamental ideals of science.

If the TTV was to be seriously validiated, there would be no concern here...

Theres a fundamental problem here, which WILL NOT go away. This thread will change nothing, and without these two people, procooling will more than likely drift in to an inane dribble like many other forums (plus some snap server stuff on the side, but they're just here for that ). If it doesnt, its lost far too much and will definitely take a long time to come back. Hell, [H] forums are looking to have a better tester now....

[pHaestus]

well... I could see the posts that Bill edited out as non-productive and *gasp* they really were just personal junk

Which sounds more reasonable:
1) Intel is able to decide what is important to generate a reasonable simulation of the heat loads their CPUs generate and then produces such a product for oems to prepare for the future and do big dollar R&D.

2) Hobbiests immediately find fatal flaws in this simulation setup that have somehow passed right through all of Intel and all thermal engineers at OEMs. A $10 hunk of copper and a cartridge heater remains superior for the truly enlightened tester of coolers.

It's laughable if you have the proper perspective on it. What is really the problem here is that OMG a really cheap commercial waterblock can come close to the performance of a really expensive one for most people. Is that SO hard to believe? It happened with the MCW6000 vs Whitewaters and noone had to explode all over the forum in a frenzy of poo-flinging.

Both guys are at fault here, but the mentality that everything commercial must be bad is ridiculous imo. Or am I missing your point?

[fameless]

[quote=pHaestus]

What is really the problem here is that OMG a really cheap commercial waterblock can come close to the performance of a really expensive one for most people. Is that SO hard to believe? It happened with the MCW6000 vs Whitewaters and noone had to explode all over the forum in a frenzy of poo-flinging.

Both guys are at fault here, but the mentality that everything commercial must be bad is ridiculous imo.QUOTE]


agreed.

[pHaestus]

I guess I'm kinda frustrated here too because testing is getting painted into a corner here. Imagine I test an Apogee and a Storm and they perform similarly. Oh then wait let's put his review and testing and the whole process until we can find a flaw and discredit it. Or if not and it all looks acceptable then let's say he is friends with BillA and has a personal axe to grind. YAY. And what if it doesn't perform all that well on my platform? Oh it'll be this enormous drama getting dragged around the web about how wrong BillA was or how stupid TTV (and Intel by proxy) is.

Don't get me wrong I like both these guys but I'm now in a somewhat untenable position as far as testing goes...without actually doing any testing!

That's why my above post was probably a little more caustic than it should've been sorry to stir up any more drama heh

[fameless]

i always thought your testing was fine. then again, i'm not that picky.

block a and block b are tested on platform x. block a performs better. i have platform y. looking at all the variables in testing blocks a and b on platform x and by doing a little bit of homework, i can figure out which block will perform the best on my set up. too easy. at least that's the way i see it.

[Etacovda]

1) Intel is able to decide what is important to generate a reasonable simulation of heatsink testing, and what accuracy is required by this equipment to ensure that OEMS design their heatsinks and that they will work within stock operation. After all, a single degree to an OEM heatsink maker is basically worthless.

2) Hobbiests immediately flaws in this simulation setup because a) its not intended for waterblocks b) the method of heating, actual heat usage, TIM joint and flexibility of the unit are completely unvalidated and c) the accuracy of it for waterblock testing is questionable because the device is to validate that heatsinks will work, all of which use a flat base design and work entirely differently to waterblocks.

Sorry, just had to reword some stuff here from the other perspective...

The TTV is a heatsink tester to validate the use of HEATSINKS for OEMs... do you REALLY think they'd spend an awful lot of time pissing around making sure that its accurate for the likes of waterblocks?

I sure as hell think there are doubts, and theres NO WAY you can say yes, because you cannot prove it...?

Also, with the whitewater vs the mcw600x series, at least they line up on most test beds.

And what, its bad to ask questions, just because they're intel? come the **** on man, thats just bullshit. "Its ok that the variables arent accounted for, because intel did it!"

shit, i better go and believe every major corporation just because they're bigger than me.

The difference with your test bed, pH, was that it was the ACTUAL APPLICATION being tested, not a simulated bit of pcb with a bloody thermal couple grooved into the top of it...

[snowwie]

i have an idea, lets have this thread spiral into an argument about...............