Water Doubts

[GuyBFF]

For radiating, not really, the reason aluminum radiates better is the fact it can't absorb as much heat as copper. In heat sinks copper is therefore used as a great conducter to get the heat off the cpu and disperse it threw the most area. Once spread out the aluminum fins do the excellent job of radiating this heat.

In a radiator the water is so close to the surface of almost all the fins, and there is really no need to spread this heat as the water is already performing this. The most thermally effecient rads are straight aluminum, as they don't absorb nearly as much heat as copper and perform much better at radiating.

I would however purchase an aluminum finned, copper heater core if it was made, as it would be the best non corrosive option with a copper water block.

[WaterPog]

Another key element that makes this an Apples-to-Oranges comparison is the fact that the coolant temps and the amount of energy in a car are both MUCH higher, radiators in cars are usually rated in Kw. As the Delta-T rises cooling efficiancy rises, this happens weather the delta is made greater by raising the temp of the object to be cooled or by lowering the temp of the cooling medium.

Also remember that a car/motorcycle radiator's goal is NOT to reject as much heat as possible, it is to keep the engine in a specific temp range which is most appropriate for the vehicles design (a range in which the engine makes the most power, the best emmisions, the best fuel economy or some combination of the above)

[GuyBFF]

Ok, I can definetly agree with the fact that the situations in which a car exhists are entirely different. All the 2-cycle race bikes I've used however perform better as cold as they can be run as long as they are jetted properly. This is the case for automobiles except for the fact that emmissions go threw the roof when cylinder temps are two low, so in cars they have thermostats and EGR's to actually heat the cyclinders. A little off topic though.

I guess it's sorta a dead issue. Truth is I'd only use copper (as I've said before) and nobody has yet proved one is better than the other by a long shot, other than coppers superior conductivity, which I agree makes for the best waterblocks and heatsinks, as it spreads more of the heat out further (if you can't mix the two metals like the swiftech MC462).

I'm sorta just going to give up. After reading all the posts that where listed I don't know any more. I do know that my whole system is copper, and I wouldn't want any aluminum in it, so it isn't really worth going on about. Maybe some site will do some comparisons soon so I can be sure one way or another.

[LiquidCool]

Actually cars run better when hot also because the pistons heat up and expand a hair, giving better compression. I rip off all the emission stuff anyway. 1977 318 with 360 heads with 750cfm carter carb in a dodge dakota just a little bit of a sleeper.

[BladeRunner]

I agree that this aluminium copper rad debate for PC cooling is pretty academic as other factors probably make more difference. An all copper system would probably be the same as the same system but with a aluminium rad, the all copper system might be better as you wouldn't need an antifreeze solution. Yes you could use water wetter but in using it in motorsport applicators I'm not convinced of it's long term corrosion protection.

I work in Motorsport F3000 & Formula Renault sport mainly and in the cold UK the battle, like Michael said is to get the engines to run hot enough. Hotter up to a point is more efficient, on the Renaults we used to tape up the rad ducts to get the temps above 90°C, simply because the extra heat made the gearbox hotter, and so the gearbox oil thinner which = less transmission drag which = a tenth or two.

One of the main reasons motorsort use aluminium rads is nothing to do with specific performance, just they are much lighter than copper and weight saving is a big part of motorsport. A fully copper pair of rads on an F3000 car would be 4 or 5 times as heavy and it matters on a race car weighing around 570 KG all in. Aluminium rads in road cars are now cheaper & easier to make with the modern high quality plastics they use for the end caps. Copper and brass was just the best way back then partly because soldering copper is so easy.

Michael Huck

I've had many fast cars in my wild youth, but a fun one, (because others would try to race you, and loose mostly), was a tatty 75 uk ford Capri with mustang running gear 400+ hp 351 Cleveland. It would run mid 12's on slicks. Current project, (if I ever get it done), is a pro street 70 Superbird with a blown 440

[WaterPog]

isn't it funny how fast cars/bikes and fast computers go hand in hand...I have a '94 Mustang Cobra, 5.0L, with a single turbo that I installed for drag-racing. I am in the process of converting from the stock T-5 5speed to a C-4 Automatic (full manual valve body, Vasco-Jet input shaft, HiPo clutches, Kolene steels, 3500rpm stall 9" converter, etc.) but it would run mid 12's at stock weight (about 3700lbs W/driver) on only ~6psi of boost. On the chassis dyno it put out about 350HP at the wheels and ~425lb/ft of torque.

[GuyBFF]

I motocross raced a 88 Honda CR250 in my younger years, and now a '99 CR250

I road race when there are no motocross races a '00 Honda 929 RR

I've ownded a '73 Cuda with a 383 I stroked to 426 cubes using a 440 crank, about 450 hp

I then owned a '88 Mustang 5.0 modified for raod racing with a full Griggs Racing suspension, nearly stock motor

Now I've taken up offraoding jeeps for fun when I'm not running one of the two bikes, and sold the cars due to tickets .

As for running a motor hot / cold, this is Canada! You can always get more power from a motor cold if it's jetted right, and the motor was built for it! Yes you are very right in saying that the pistons expand, but if you size them right, and never run them hot, colder is better. The air charge is denser and will burn the same if jetted right. Motocross bikes aren't allowed 30 seconds to heat up before the start of a race even at 0c.

[BladeRunner]

Yes you are correct, but induction air temps are a completely different thing to the most efficient running temp of the engine block and coolant. Cooler air is more dense so contains more oxygen which in turn makes a bigger explosion in the piston IF you add more fuel, (jetting changes). No motorsport I've been involved with uses carbs anymore. Fuelling is all electronically mapped and injected with regard to all the engine and ambient parameters. If running the engine cooler it's self made more power we wouldn't be blanking off the rads in the winter series to keep the temps higher.

[LiquidCool]

Unfortunately I never got it to the dyno, 4 days after I got it on the road a smooshed it into a full size bus I actually cried when it happened! worked on it for a year then POOF all gone. I was on the way back from a show too with my 1st place trophy next to me!(under construction class, wasn't painted)

I've still got the engine in plastic sitting on a stand and a new truck(87 Dakota) to drop it in, just have to finish the body work on the truck first. I'm channeling the body, which is essentially cutting the body off the floor, then lowering the body a few inches and welding it back up. In other words when you look at the side of most trucks you can see th frame right? Well on mine the body hangs LOWER than the frame. Looks SWEET laying the entire body on the ground.

I also need one more rim, I smashed one of them in the wreck. I had 18x8.5 with 225/18/35 in the front 18x9.5 with 245/18/40's in the rear. Thing gripped like hell!

I had a 4 link suspension in the rear with 2 2600 pound air bags and 2 2600 pound bags in the front. Gotta finish the new mounts for those as well.

Never knew a kid could take up so much of my time! My sons much more worth it though. I just miss my other baby I loved getting up next to little rice burners and mustangs and showing them some DODGE POWER!

[GuyBFF]

Hey BladeRunner, what is Motorsport F3000 & Formula Renault? A form af rally racing? Not common in Canada if it is, to bad .

[resago]

hmm, same here

'86 Camaro, 383 6"rods, comp cams nitrous 268 cam, forged bottom end.
5 speed Tremec trany.

check it out my camaro

[BladeRunner]

F3000 is really the next down from Formula 1, and basically follows the F1 circus around. The cars a single seater one type, fully carbon fibre design made by Lola. The engines are an ex F1 design flat plane crank V8 made & prepared by Zytec and "detuned" from a possible 650 Bhp to about 465Bhp, (to make the whole package bullet proof). They do about 170Mph given a long straight. Montoya, (now in F1), won the F3000 series before coming to the US. The cars and series are similar to your Indy Cart, but a bit lower spec to try to keep the costs down.

if you were an up and comming racing driver, it always used to be progression through the formulas in motorsport to F1 . So you would start in:-

Go-karts as a kid then

formula ford (single seater no wings)

formula Renault, (formula ford with wings),

F3 (similar to formula Renault but higher spec with more power)

F3000 (which should really be called F2 but isn't just to confuse the issue)

F1 (you should know what F1 is....... the pinicle of motorsport)

Then when you've won F1 you go to the US as a rookie and win Indy Carts (like Mansel)

Nowadays star talented drivers are being plucked from F3 & Renault sport and going straight to F1.

I'm just a motorsport mechanic BTW and I've mainly worked on single seaters, Formula Renault Sport, & Formula 3000. It has it's moments but it's mainly hard work, not very glamorous at the sharp end, they bend Um we mend Um

[GuyBFF]

Very, very cool BladeRunner! I wish I could follow a series like that, especially as a mechanic!!!

[BladeRunner]

I can't find a good pic of an F3000 car atm, but here are a few of a forumla Renault 2000, the series I've been involved in more recently.


pics are links to detailed images

[venkman]

the ocp linked this a while back...
General Heat Transfer Guide

in sum, copper is better. copper with aluminum fins is worse than copper with copper fins. this guy is/was a materials engineer in the heating/cooling industry, so as for me, i'll believe him.

[BladeRunner]

venkman

I've read that before and it is a very good article. The only thing I'll say is in my job mentioned in the previous posts I "deal" with paper engineers all the time that come up with reams of equations on why doing this or that has to make the car quicker. We try it and usually it goes slower on the track. The point is in the real world, not a paper one, there are many other factors. Yes he is probably right if you could find to exactly the same rads one all copper , the other copper with aluminium fins, but the chances are other real world factors will make the results in favour negligible or undetctable, If you can find a fine finned well designed all copper rad great, but don't assue it will be better than a copper one with aluminium fins as the design fin lenght amont of fins flow design etc etc, could make the aluminium one much better.

[melvyn]

Originally posted by WaterPog:
isn't it funny how fast cars/bikes and fast computers go hand in hand...

Maybe... but as my systems have got faster, my car's have gotten slower...

1999:
K6-3 400 @ 450
Ford Orion 16v with tweeks - 120mph and climbing (never did max it out!)

2001:
Duron 750 @ >900
Hyundai Scoupe - 100mph downhill with a tail wind

[Mbeach]

Originally posted by BladeRunner:
if you were an up and comming racing driver, it always used to be progression through the formulas in motorsport to F1

Tell that to Raikkonen... he went from Gokart -> Formula Renault -> F1

That's one great career..

[Butcher]

hmm this thread got majorly hyjacked into motor sports there (that's a fine looking machine btw), as for the alu vs copper rads thing for comps copper is better - you don;t use radiation at comp temps cos you're too close to ambient, for best radiation black anodised alu is best, for forced air, convection is the one and copper does better due to higher conductivity.

[BladeRunner]

Mbeach

Button & Raikkonen where the two I was thinking about when I stated the below in the same post, but I'm sure there will be others in the future.

Originally posted by BladeRunner:
Nowadays star talented drivers are being plucked from F3 & Renault sport and going straight to F1.

[Mbeach]

Didn't Baby-Button have a longer career? I think Raikkonen had only been in 12 races with Formula Reanult before that Sauber guy found him.

For what F3000 team did you work for, Bladerunner?

[BladeRunner]

This is going off topic again, if anyone wants to continue the motorsport talk post a topic in the Bullshit forum as that is a fitting forum title for it

Just to answer your questions, I wasn't comparing either of those two drivers just commenting F3000 isn't the only gateway to F1 now as it used to be. Raikkonen is indeed a talent but he also should be considered lucky to be given the chance to prove himself in F1 so soon, (I was working in Renault Sport the year he walked the championship).

I worked mainly in the Italian F3000 series for Redgrave Racing & did some testing with Arden. It was to be a British F3000 series but Bernie pulled the plug

More on my chief engineers web sit here:- http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stevelucas/work.htm