Phase Change

[bowman1964]

i see all the guys here too |PuNiSh3R| what have you done?well i just got mine back up and testing now.tack a look -52.1 on face
-45.9 on the side of the block .not bad .not loaded though i hope to load it this week after i am sure of the system running smooth for a couple of days.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

That's cool dude.. Glad you are doing better now.. I fell a bit behind schedule.. and I've made a few changes in my plans.. but I don't feel like spending anymore money on parts so I am going to cheap route now.

[airspirit]

Um, pardon my stupidity, but how the heck do you use a dehumidifier to cool your fluid (like with the Kenmore unit)? Could somebody be kind enough to put up a cheese MSPaint diagram? I'm desperately considering anything to lower my temps ....

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Ok, On every device that gets cold.. like an air conditioner.. refrigerator.. de-humidifer.. etc.. It has the core components that are true to every device..

Compressor, Condensor, Evaporator

On an AC unit the evaporator gets something like 22F.. On a de-humidifer.. it's probably around 40F (?).. and of course on a frige it's whatever you want it to be..

So if you strip the guts out of a de-humidifer you will end up with those core components.. which you can use to chill water..

That's the easiest way of explaining things.. I suck with any art program..

[bowman1964]

|PuNiSh3R| take a look.
well first day of testing .so i thought what the hell get out the big peltier. 156watts at 13.8 volts.full loaded my block .didnt do bad at all.i had to adjust the freon some.caused my no load temps to go from -53.5 down to -45. but at least is keeping the block cold.i have 3 probes.one one the cold plate reading-43.3 one on the hot side of the peltier reading -7.5 on one on the block reading -27.7.not too bad so far.

[SonixOS]

ARGH, I was only able to get my unit to go to -7 C (water temp). I am using the cold water to cool the compressor.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

water cooling the compressor is completely useless and is a waste..

Just put a fan on it.. doesn't even need to be a high CFM fan...

Nice work BOWMAN

[bigben2k]

Originally posted by bowman1964
|PuNiSh3R| take a look.
well first day of testing .so i thought what the hell get out the big peltier. 156watts at 13.8 volts.full loaded my block .didnt do bad at all.i had to adjust the freon some.caused my no load temps to go from -53.5 down to -45. but at least is keeping the block cold.i have 3 probes.one one the cold plate reading-43.3 one on the hot side of the peltier reading -7.5 on one on the block reading -27.7.not too bad so far.

Nice work!

That's what I'd like to get into, but I don't have enough info to build my own assembly from scratch. Your website has some info, but did you ever write up an article about it?

Punisher: the temps that you reach depend on the refrigerant that you use: R-22 (dehumidifier) will reach a lower temp than R-134A(fridge).

[SonixOS]

Its not a waste to cool the compressor. Should I pump more R22 into my system to get it colder? Cuz i think -7C water temp is crap. I expected better.

[bigben2k]

Adding more refrigerant is tricky, but overall, no, you're not likely to get much improvement, since the system is probably already running at capacity.

Cooling the compressor with a small fan is probably your best bet. If you're watercooling your compressor, then you're also cooling some of the refrigerant, as the compressor heats up the refrigerant. It's ok, they're designed that way.

I'd be frustrated too, if my coolant temp was only -7C.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Ben, I am aware of the different boiling points of refrigerants..

[bigben2k]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
Ben, I am aware of the different boiling points of refrigerants..

He he, just covering your back, bro...

[SonixOS]

which antifreeze should i mix with pure water to use to cool my processor? I am thinking just get a nice bottle of Water Wetter and use that, why not?

As for the water temp, I am using the 65 pint Dehumidifier (kenmore), it runs 2500 BTU (supposedly) so should I take it to an A/C guy and get him to check it out? I bought it used (store return) but still from sears.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

If you have the money to waste.. he won't do anything that you could do yourself..

Go to a local Auto Zone and get this stuff from Prestone.. called

LowTox Anti-Freeze

It's like certified safe for the environment and wild life .. you can't miss it.. it's in a white jug..

It's good stuff cuz it won't be to harsh on your system.. and it works good... I think it's glycol based so use little as possible.. If you get a bit of ice up when your PC is off.. don't worry once you turn your PC on and the water warms up it will take care of any slush.

[bowman1964]

look hear guys .finally got aroung to putting my shroud on the condensor and man drop me 5 more degrees.cooling block is now
-57.1 f on the face and -52.1 on the side.tweek tweek tweek.hears a pic

[|PuNiSh3R|]

What is the boiling point of 22?

[SonixOS]

bowman, what is the BTU rating for your compressor? How come u get such good temps? Are you using the refrigerant directly or cooling the condensor with water?

And how much should I use of that lowtox antifreeze punisher? I got a 19x12x6 reservoir. I am thinking of maybe filling it half way so how much antifreeze should I put in there? When i used the texaco antifreeze, i just kept adding more and more until I saw no frost over the condensor in the water. Good or bad to do?

thanks guys, oh yeah bowman, u RULE! great temps man, hope I can get something like that. Tell me about the stuff u used in your system.

[ViperSTD]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
What is the boiling point of 22?

As far as I know these are the boiling temps: R22@-41, R12@ -21F, R134@-12F.

Good luck finding R22 though. It is nasty stuff. Mix it with water and the acid will melt your bones. Mix it with flame and it turns into a WWII nerve gas.:shrug:

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Use as little anti-freeze as possible.. It sucks at heat transfer.. Atleast Glycol based AF is..

Anyway... go on the back of the bottle.. it gives a chart.. I think it's like.. -20F 40% AF 60% water.. -60F .. etc

So if your water stays around 20F.. I would say start out with 10% AF and 90% water..

It doesn't matter if you have a bit of frost on the top of the water.. You just don't slush.. or ice in the water lines.. As long as you have a strongest enough pump though you shouldn't get ice in the lines no matter what.. as long as the water is flowing that is..

You aren't running these real great temps.. Don't get me wrong though.. You are cooling your compressor with that water too.. which just amazing that you are still get such low temps.. But let me tell you that the compressor NEEDS to get warm/hot.. Because it is compressing the freon from a liquid to a gas.. (or is it gas to liquid?)

Either way .. it needs to compress the freon.. The compression is energy used which comes off in the form of heat.. so that the freon can turn into gas from a liquid and go into the condensor to get cooled.. I suppose if you super chilled your compressor.. you in theory wouldn't even need a condensor.. cuz that's all the condensor does.. is remove the heat from the refrigerant because of the compressing process.

Oh, BTW.. Bowman is using a 1/4HP? (i think) compressor.. it's R22 which has a LOT lower boiling point then R-134A.. which is whats in your dehumidifer most likely.. same with my phase change setup.. Doesn't mean our systems can't be good too.. we just won't see -57F

Bowman, I am running this setup,

30Ft Evaporator.. divided up into 3 coils 10ft each.. in 3" PVC pipes that have water flowing through them at 1/2" connections with a 360GPH pump...

20Ft condensor.. Divided up into 2 coils 10ft each.. in 3" PVC pipes that have water flowing through them at 3/8" connections accept for on the last pipe the exit barb is 1/4" (to keep up back pressure so the tubes stay 100% full at all times) with a 120GPH pump.

Do you see any advantage to me water cooling my condensor..? What do you think about that setup? It's a 1/20HP compressor. R-134A.

Oh and do you think my 360GPH pump will be good enough to keep water pressure up in the evaporator tubes so the entire evaporator coil is covered in water? What do you think about that water chiller idea? Should I have the exit on the last evaporator pipe be 3/8" or something to keep up back pressure? I am running a 1/2" water block n all ..

Adios

[|PuNiSh3R|]

You are wrong with those boiling points.. Bowman has -57F on his evaporator and he's running R22.. But let me speak for myself.. I run 134A and I see -18F.. Which is -27C .. which I know for a fact is the boiling point of 134A.

Just didn't know 22 cuz Bowman is gettin that shiet so low..

[ViperSTD]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
You are wrong with those boiling points.. Bowman has -57F on his evaporator and he's running R22.. But let me speak for myself.. I run 134A and I see -18F.. Which is -27C .. which I know for a fact is the boiling point of 134A.

Just didn't know 22 cuz Bowman is gettin that shiet so low..

I want to point out that the boiling point changes depending on pressure.
Good table of refrigerants

[SonixOS]

I had -7C with a fan pointed at the compressor. I got like between 0-5 with a small rad with a rotron on it coolnig the compressor. So -7C is with the hot compressor.

My Compressor USES R22! So there is no reason for why the water temps are soo high. ALso Should I have cool air cooling the hot condensor (maybe evaporator whatever one is the hot radiator thing) maybe the colder that is the colder my temps r gonna be.

I am using a nice eheim 317 gph pump.

[bowman1964]

LET ME ANSER SOME OF YOUR QUESTIONS:
FIRST THE BLOCK WAS INSULATED EXCEPT THE BOTTOM OF THE COLD PLATE.
YES THE SIDE OF THE BLOCK STAYED CLOSE TO -27C THOUGH MOST OF THE TEST.
ALL THOUGH IT DID START TO RISE 5 MINUTES INTO THE LOAD AT FIRST,
BECAUSE I DIDNT HAVE ENOUGH FREON IN THE SYSTEM SO I ADDED A LITTLE BIT
MORE AND STARTED TO STAY AT -27C.
NOW THE PLET WAS RATED AT 156 WATTS AT 13.8 VOLTS AND I RAN IT WITH MY
40 AMP POWER SUPPLY,PELT DRAWS CLOSE TO 15 AMP AT LOAD.
NOW THE HOT SIDE OF THE PELT WAS AGAIST THE BOTTON OF THE BLOCK AND
THE BLOCK AND PELT ARE THE SAME SIZE 50MM X 50MM.I MACHINED A GROOVE
IN THE BOTTOM OF THE BLOCK TO PUT A TEMP PROBE CLOSE TO THE CPU CORE.
SO THE PROBE SAT AGAINST THE HOT SIDE OF THE PELT AND THE BLOCK THATS
HOW I DID THAT.NOW THE COMPRESSOR RETURN(SUCTION)LINE DOES HAVE FROST
TO THE COMPRESSOR WITH NO LOAD,BUT WHEN RUNNING A LOAD NO FROST.
THE COPPER IS ALLOY 110 I BELIEVE.THE BLOSK HAS 4 MAZES CONNECTED
.200 X.300 X 5 1/2 FEET LONG GROOVES.THAT GIVES THE FREON LONG ENOUGH
TIME TO TRANSFER THE HEAT.COST IS ABOUT $200.00.BUT THAT INCLUDES THE
PRICE OF MY PROTO TYPE UNIT.
NOW I HAVE DROPPED MY TEMPS EVEN MORE BY TWWEKING SOME MORE.
MAY METER WONT READ PAST -58F AND IT WILL GO PAST THAT NOW NO LOAD.

NOW BEFORE EVERYONE JUMPS UP AND SAYS R22 BOILS AT -40F SO IT CANNT
GET THAT COLD.LOOK AT A CHART AND MY COMPRESSOR RUNS IN A VACUUM
ON THE SUCTION SIDE OF ABOUT 12 INCHS OF VACUUM.AT THAT VACCUM R22
BOILS ABOUT -60F.
NOW HOW COME I GET THE TEMPS I GET.WELL......
I DESIGNED THE SYSTEM FROM SCRATH WITH THE MOST EFFICIENT USE OF
COMPONENTS I COULD.COMPRESSOR IS 1/4HP FOUND ANYTHING SMALLER DOESNT
HAVE ENOUGH SUCTION TO MAKE A STRONG VACCUM TO GET BELOW -40F.
THE CONDENSOR IS MOUNTED HORIZONTAL WITH NO TUBES GOING UP AND DOWN.
THIS KEEPS THE OIL AND FREON FROM COLLECTING IN A TUBE,ALSO KEEPS
A STEADY FLOW OF FREON TO THE CAPILARY TUBE.
THE CAPILARY TUBE IS RAN INSIDE OF THE SUCTION LINE FROM THE
COMPRESSOR TO INSIDE THE EVAP BLOCK.THIS MAKES THE RETURN GAS
SUPER COOL THE INCOMING LIQUID FREON, MAKING IT COLDER AND DENSER.
THE SUTION LINE IS BENT IN A WAY THAT IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE FOR LIQUID
FREON TO GET INTO THE COMPRESSOR
THE EVAPERATOR IT SELF IS MY DESIGN WITH A INJECTOR NOZZLE RIGHT OVER
THE CPU DIE SPRAYING SUPER COOLED FREON STRAIGHT ON THE BOTTOM PLATE
OF THE EVAPERATOR.AND RETURNING THOUGH A MAZE OF ALMOST 5FT 6"LONG
.I USED FLEXABLE AUTOMOTIVE AC HOSE TO ALOW EASY FLEXING AND MOUNTING
OF THE BLOCK TO THE BOARD.PROTO TYPE UNIT I USED COPPER AND FOUND IT
IS VERY HARD TO BEND EVEN SOFT COPPER TIME AND TIME AGAIN BETWEEN
CHANGING CPU'S.THIS IS MAJOR FAILURE OF THE UNITS YOU BY ONLINE.

[SonixOS]

Oh you're using straight freon cooling? I am using the evaporator to cool the water and THEN cool the processor. I am taking alcohol thermometer readings of the WATER not of the freon itself. I cant take a temp reading of the block with my 226w pelt because my thermometer has a round base and wouldnt take good readings. Plus the antifreeze freezes anyways on the block.

[bigben2k]

(and here's the whisper quiet version):

Let me answer some of your questions:
First the block was insulated except the bottom of the cold plate. Yes the side of the block stayed close to -27C though most of the test. Although it did start to rise 5 minutes into the load at first,
because I didn’t have enough Freon in the system so I added a little bit more and started to stay at -27C.

Now the pelt was rated at 156 watts at 13.8 volts and I ran it with my 40 amp power supply, pelt draws close to 15 amp at load. Now the hot side of the pelt was against the bottom of the block and the block and pelt are the same size 50MM x 50MM.i machined a groove in the bottom of the block to put a temp probe close to the cpu core. So the probe sat against the hot side of the pelt and the block that’s how I did that.

Now the compressor return (suction) line does have frost to the compressor with no load, but when running a load, no frost.

The copper is alloy 110 I believe. The block has 4 mazes connected
.200 x.300 x 5 1/2 feet long grooves. That gives the Freon long enough
time to transfer the heat.

Cost is about $200.00.but that includes the price of my proto type unit.
Now I have dropped my temps even more by tweaking some more.

May meter won’t read past -58F and it will go past that now no load.

Now before everyone jumps up and says r22 boils at -40F so it can’t
get that cold. Look at a chart and my compressor runs in a vacuum
on the suction side of about 12 inches of vacuum. At that vacuum r22
boils about -60F.

Now how come I get the temps I get, well......

I designed the system from scratch with the most efficient use of components I could.

Compressor is 1/4HP found anything smaller doesn’t have enough suction to make a strong vacuum to get below -40F. The condenser is mounted horizontal with no tubes going up and down. This keeps the oil and Freon from collecting in a tube, also keeps a steady flow of Freon to the capillary tube.

The capillary tube is run inside of the suction line from the compressor to inside the evap block. This makes the return gas super cool the incoming liquid Freon, making it colder and denser.
The suction line is bent in a way that is almost impossible for liquid
Freon to get into the compressor.

the evaporator it self is my design with a injector nozzle right over the cpu die spraying super cooled Freon straight on the bottom plate of the evaporator and returning though a maze of almost 5FT 6"long. I used flexible automotive ac hose to allow easy flexing and mounting of the block to the board prototype unit I used copper and found it is very hard to bend even soft copper time and time again between changing cpu's. This is major failure of the units you buy online.