Cracked Srir@l :/

[V12|V12]

Originally posted by gone_fishin


A copper top contributes absolutely nothing to the cooling abillity of a waterblock The only reason people have the notion of clear tops risking a system is by extremely poor utilization of the material which has spread such nonsensical ideas. After all, a poor soldering job results in the same risk does it not?

Okay sounds like the start of a mind/profession-slinging contest... Guess I'll start... Since I'm almost a degree having MATERIAL science Eng, I can tell you by FACT that a copper top DOES indeed contribute to the overall cooling of the block, being that the copper (or plastic top) material DOES come in contact with the water in the block AND has contact with the sides, which shouldn't have yet reached the thermal-resistance point. I've SEEN and done Stereo-lythographs and can vough for the RED=heat, being displayed on the heat mapping/stress areas... Anyone that believes that a plastic top will not hamper their temps (albeit some, minute) is being mislead. It's a simple FACT of material SCIENCE, not SELLING "eye-candy"

The fact of a "bad soldering job" is moot. Being that if you're not playing around an know what you are doing, as in heating the filler metal to the proper liquidus point and put on the right amount of brazing flux, then the copper+solder/brazing material WILL "wet" along each other and give you a solid seal, which should be stronger than both materials on their own. Now as for the plastic, many a things can go wrong, the plastic batch itself could be flawed in the mixing composition and with added heating and cooling could cause a catastrophic failure in it's structure, okay, blah, blah... metal on metal soldering is MUCH more of a SECURE way of sealing and conducting heat. Look pretty if you want, but how many PROPERLY metal topped blocks have leaked Vs Plastic... you do the math. "Let science and fact of physics be your guide, NOT your self-rightious opinion." -Me. lol!

[ambient]

thats strange since d-tek's site has always specified chrome barbs for the Spir@l. Has he emailed Danny about this? He can buy a replacement top.

[gone_fishin]

Originally posted by V12|V12


Okay sounds like the start of a mind/profession-slinging contest... Guess I'll start... Since I'm almost a degree having MATERIAL science Eng, I can tell you by FACT that a copper top DOES indeed contribute to the overall cooling of the block, being that the copper (or plastic top) material DOES come in contact with the water in the block AND has contact with the sides, which shouldn't have yet reached the thermal-resistance point. I've SEEN and done Stereo-lythographs and can vough for the RED=heat, being displayed on the heat mapping/stress areas... Anyone that believes that a plastic top will not hamper their temps (albeit some, minute) is being mislead. It's a simple FACT of material SCIENCE, not SELLING "eye-candy"

The fact of a "bad soldering job" is moot. Being that if you're not playing around an know what you are doing, as in heating the filler metal to the proper liquidus point and put on the right amount of brazing flux, then the copper+solder/brazing material WILL "wet" along each other and give you a solid seal, which should be stronger than both materials on their own. Now as for the plastic, many a things can go wrong, the plastic batch itself could be flawed in the mixing composition and with added heating and cooling could cause a catastrophic failure in it's structure, okay, blah, blah... metal on metal soldering is MUCH more of a SECURE way of sealing and conducting heat. Look pretty if you want, but how many PROPERLY metal topped blocks have leaked Vs Plastic... you do the math. "Let science and fact of physics be your guide, NOT your self-rightious opinion." -Me. lol!

Ok, you got me on the "absolutely" statement I made but if you are trying to claim that a copper top is going to get you down even by 1C lower in temps then I say hogwash
There must be a proper choice in material and a proper working of that material to get satisfactory results in the making of any product. You gave an excellent description of a proper soldering procedure and all I say is that with a proper implementation of clear polycabonate there would be none of these cracking problems. When someone tinkers with there stuff then there is an added chance of things going awry. I wonder how many people unsoldered there blocks to toy with the insides (it has happened) and had problems sealing them up because they aren't that familliar with the proper procedure?

[bigben2k]

For what it's worth:

IMHO, a copper top MAY affect the performance, but I would believe that it would be minimal, in the fractions of degrees C. That being said, the block design must also be a factor, since a design where a copper top would be brazed to a fin near the center, versus an open block (a la #rotor), there's a difference.

Is it going to make a difference? Yes. Is it going to make a SIGNIFICANT difference? probably not.

...and that's my $.02

[V12|V12]

Originally posted by gone_fishin


Ok, you got me on the "absolutely" statement I made but if you are trying to claim that a copper top is going to get you down even by 1C lower in temps then I say hogwash
There must be a proper choice in material and a proper working of that material to get satisfactory results in the making of any product. You gave an excellent description of a proper soldering procedure and all I say is that with a proper implementation of clear polycabonate there would be none of these cracking problems. When someone tinkers with there stuff then there is an added chance of things going awry. I wonder how many people unsoldered there blocks to toy with the insides (it has happened) and had problems sealing them up because they aren't that familliar with the proper procedure?

Tru, tru, I'd say something like with the "proper" soldering/brazing job, adding a window of something, so that the sides will have no leaking, but the window will provide some "adquate" Eye-Candy, probably even more if you could make it look right? No previous offense intended Just tried of hearing about plastic tops that fail when, it just seems so illogical to add all these gaskets and use materials that will naturally provide an increased risk of failure or potential...

[DodgeViper]

Barbs use a tapper thread (NPT). As you tighten the barb the Lexan is going to expand placing stress on the Lexan. This is why it broke.

[bowman1964]

well i was one of the first to get a sprial last year and top cracked right away.i emailed a pic to dtek and he said he would get me a replacement as soon as he got one.but that was 8 or 9 months ago and no top yet.so i am looking at it right now like some paper weight.guess he was too busy.

[gone_fishin]

Originally posted by DodgeViper
Barbs use a tapper thread (NPT). As you tighten the barb the Lexan is going to expand placing stress on the Lexan. This is why it broke.

A pipe tap is also tapered to match this exactly so this is only a problem if the hole has not been tapped to the end of the tap, in which case it would have been done improperly. This is also btw the reason the male threaded end should be trimmed to the proper length when using narrow tops so that they do not bottom out and so that they can be turned in all the way. When properly done these possible problems are eliminated.

[DodgeViper]

Nobody ever uses a tap all the way to the end. A tappered thread is a sealing thread, but when you begin using metal barbs and non metal products you have a loser and its the non metal products.

[jaydee]

Originally posted by ambient
thats strange since d-tek's site has always specified chrome barbs for the Spir@l. Has he emailed Danny about this? He can buy a replacement top.

That used to be the case (and may still be?) for Fixittt't spiral, but from the pic this one looks like Gemini's spiral which usually comes with a plastic type barb. Doesn't look nearly thick enough for Fixittt's spiral. Remember Danny now sells both versions.


[edit] Well I think I am wrong. Gemini's spiral doesn't extend out on the sides all the way. My bad.[/edit]

[gone_fishin]

Originally posted by DodgeViper
Nobody ever uses a tap all the way to the end. A tappered thread is a sealing thread, but when you begin using metal barbs and non metal products you have a loser and its the non metal products.

Oh but they do. I described a method to avoid all of the needless cracking. The only reasons not to do it is to save time to cut cost. In the method I described it not possible for the barb to bottom out when using top thicknesses less than the thread length of a standard barb. Furthermore it is not going to place excessive force inside the tapped hole because the barb will screw all the way in and stop at the top, having the teflon tape do the job of sealing.
The only losing combination is a poorly thought out use of materials. Better tapping procedure and trimming of the barbs or a thicker top, full 1/2" and no trimming is needed.
Another thing, why the use of the o-ring? It is just begging for someone to overtighten the assembly screws and give undue strain on the unsupported areas around them. This is where the term eyecandy can be used in my opinion. The milling out of the o-ring channel adds an expense to the product without adding durability. Why not use a solid clear gasket so that even pressure is spread and maintained? You still get the see through look with less cost and more durability.
Countersunk tapered head assembly screws are not a good choice either (as shown in the pics) and are inviting a crack, it's like driving a wedge into the material as you tighten them down.
In my opinion, a better use of the materials could have avoided these problems and kept the reputation of clear topped blocks more respectable.

[big|d0g]

Originally posted by ambient
thats strange since d-tek's site has always specified chrome barbs for the Spir@l. Has he emailed Danny about this? He can buy a replacement top.

Yes m8 Danny said they are doing some test`s on some new tops and barbs for the spir@l.

[[GiB] spawny]

There seems loads of posts about my problem.

Answers:

1. Yes these barbs were shipped with this product.

2. The reason I used ptfe tape was the barbs were loose after shipping and was informed by my own forum that this would be alright as I had no goop.

I'm currently bench testing a new setup and was unfortunate to have this happen. I blame no one thing other than some design improvements and good housekeeping. Perhaps some more research on my part would have helped.

The supplier has been more than helpful and a replacement top is on its way.

[jaydee]

Originally posted by gone_fishin


Why not use a solid clear gasket so that even pressure is spread and maintained? You still get the see through look with less cost and more durability.

What is this and where do you get it?

[DodgeViper]

I can only say is I have been tapping holes for over 30 years and not once have I ever ran a tapper thread tap all the way to the end.

[gone_fishin]

Originally posted by DodgeViper
I can only say is I have been tapping holes for over 30 years and not once have I ever ran a tapper thread tap all the way to the end.

Perhaps there is a need for a definition for "tapped to the end". When the widest part of the tap reaches the top surface of the polycarbonate. This is a special situation, not to be treated as a metal to metal contact situation as in common plumbing. Reread the simple procedure I described and you may yet see the merits of doing this.

[gone_fishin]

Originally posted by jaydee116

What is this and where do you get it?

"Transparent Silicone
Durometer 40A
Tensile Strength, psi 800
Elongation % 250

Get a clear view of your materials through this transparent rubber. Sheets are covered with a protective clear film (remove film before using). Rubber has a temperature range of -80° to +425° F. "

That was straight from the spec sheet of a supplier. It is not impossible to find and goes for about $12.00 per square foot at 1mm thickness. That will get you 24 gaskets at 2" X 3" so I don't see it being a huge cost but rather a cost saver. If you get it adhesive backed, it's a couple dollars more per square foot.

[jaydee]

Originally posted by gone_fishin


"Transparent Silicone
Durometer 40A
Tensile Strength, psi 800
Elongation % 250

Get a clear view of your materials through this transparent rubber. Sheets are covered with a protective clear film (remove film before using). Rubber has a temperature range of -80° to +425° F. "

That was straight from the spec sheet of a supplier. It is not impossible to find and goes for about $12.00 per square foot at 1mm thickness. That will get you 24 gaskets at 2" X 3" so I don't see it being a huge cost but rather a cost saver. If you get it adhesive backed, it's a couple dollars more per square foot.

Sounds interesting. Thats about $.50 a block which is pretty close to the same as a custom order O ring. I would prefer it ot be non adhesive as I try to make all my blocks cleanable.

[DodgeViper]

No need to read. You have your way of using a tap and I have mine. Good luck with your adventures.