cheaper alternative to water wetter for killing bugs w/out a decrease in performance? - Page 3

shaft01 · 09-27-2002, 02:26 AM

Big todo over this on another forum

but just add a capful or two of clorox to your water.......it will KILL the bugs........it does deactivate after a couple weeks though.....BUT it also sterilizes a closed system.......I would think you need at least one critter to start a critter colony and after using the clorox you should have a sterile environment.

redleader · 09-27-2002, 07:54 PM

Isn't there is Chlorine in bleech? That would do all sorts of nasty things to a copper waterblock, no?

V12|V12 · 10-13-2002, 03:22 AM

I say, you DO NOT want to put ANY clorox into your system! I will significantly change the ph of the water to a caustic base side. Which is HIGHLY efficient at dissolving grease and any other lube that you've use to slip you tubes on and it will effect some plastics and the pump's impeller etc... DO NOT USE BLEACH.

Like I said earlier, try out the Lysol, it works GREAT, I've YET to see any "white-coats: in my tubes!

g.l.amour · 10-13-2002, 04:06 AM

would vinegar be any good? i wouldn't know where to even get lysol...

MadDogMe · 10-13-2002, 05:37 AM

I still find it hard to believe soap would be for the better, I know it's a surfactant, but surfactant does'nt automaticly imply reduced surface tension does it. I'd have thought the film of soap would have increased tension.
I know WW makes water foam, but are they strong bubbles?, like soap ones are?...
I'd like to see something definative rather than an opinion.
I'm not saying it is or is'nt, I'd like to be 100% that's all

...

Why do people put anti freeze in if they don't have mixed metals?. it's only with mixed metals you get electro galvanic corrosion is'nt it?...

Brians256 · 10-15-2002, 12:22 PM

First, a surfactant reduces surface tension. That's the definition of surfactant.

Second, people put antifreeze in their systems for two reasons. Normal corrosion prevention (non-galvanic) and to reduce the freezing temperature (sometimes the alcohols interfere with their particular tubing and reservoir materials). Antifreeze does help with normal corrosion, but, to be honest the normal corrosion probably isn't severe enough to be of any effect. Be honest... how long do we actually keep our systems? I doubt that a watercooling loop actually stays untouched for more than a year!

MadDogMe · 10-16-2002, 03:48 AM

Is'nt oil used as a 'surface acting agent' when it's thrown overboard to calm waves, to make boarding easier. surely a Surfactant is anything that reacts to waters surface in any way?. otherwise it'd be a Surftenredant:shrug: ...

I thought they put AF in 'Galvanic specific'(?). I would'nt put it in my all Cu system. Also I thought it was WaterWetter that left deposits on plastic if over~used?, and which also stained (silicone?, makes it go white?) tubing?...

I'm not being contrary on purpose my friend

, it's just like I said, 'I'd like to know for sure' about soap being a good thing, I think it' could reduce tension of the water maybe, but it puts a film on top of the water as well?:shrug: .
I'm not being obstinate either, I've just seen one too many untruths touted as fact on the web before

. so I'd like to be 100%...

bigben2k · 10-16-2002, 08:51 AM

Oil would float at the top of the water, so it would calm waves indeed. It's not a surfactant, in fact, it increases surface tension.

In a rig, there is no surface exposed to air, and no oil to float on top. Depending on the oil, it might attach itself to tubing walls/copper channels, and you definitely don't want that, unless you're running an oil cooler.

Liquid laundry detergent is something that I proposed some time back. It contains a surfactant, but is a bubbless soap, so pretty much ideal for watercooling. Dishwashing soap (the machine dishwasher) would work too. I would definitely stay away from the powder formats, because I don't care to try to dissolve this stuff in water, so that there is no powder residue to damage the pump. If it's already liquid, then it's not a worry (but I'd still feel it between my fingers for any kind of granularity).

Of course, true to my avatar name, I haven't tried it, so if you do, you're on your own, but we would all like to see results.

RoboTech · 10-16-2002, 03:58 PM

Water-coolant chemistry… some useful Facts

Surfactants are used in PC water-cooling systems to promote better heat transfer. They do two things: 1) surfactants REDUCE water surface tension, which increases waters surface wetting ability (increased contact between water molecules and heat transfer surfaces) and 2) helps release numerous, tiny air bubbles, which get trapped on heat transfer surfaces (trapped microscopic air bubbles block heat flow). Two of the more popular commercial brands are Water Wetter and Purple Ice (both developed for high performance race car cooling systems).

Adding a surfactant (in the low concentrations used in PC cooling systems) does not change the viscosity of water.

Surfactants (Surface active agents) are also known as wetting agents
Surfactants are organic chemicals that reduce the surface tension of water
(Water has a naturally high surface tension – water likes to cling to itself – beads up)
There are many different kinds of surfactants
Soaps AND detergents are both surfactants
Soap falls into one class of surfactants (anionic surfactants) made from animal fats and vegetable oils
Detergents include several different types of surfactants (anionic and nonionic surfactants) made primarily from petrochemicals

A surfactant molecule is made up of two parts. On one end is a carboxylate group (alkylated carboxylic acid) and on the other end is a long straight hydrocarbon chain. The carboxylate end is attracted to water. This is the (hydrophilic – water loving) end. The hydrocarbon chain end is repelled by water (hydrophobic – water hating) but is attracted to other molecules and surfaces. When a surfactant is added to water, it acts as a “bridge”, which allows the water to fully wet or spread out along surfaces that might otherwise repel the water molecules. (It is this same wetting ability that allows soaps and detergents to attach and suspend oil and grease for cleaning.)

Commercial soap and detergent products can be used in a coolant system (VERY small amount – 1 drop) but I do NOT recommend it as these products generally contain many other additives (emulsifiers, sudsing agents, smelly stuff, etc.) that are not beneficial for PC water-cooling applications.

pH

pH is a measure of how acidic or basic a solution is. The scale ranges from 1 to 14 (1 being extremely acidic, 7 being neutral, and 14 being extremely basic).

In a PC water-cooling system we generally want the pH to be slightly on the basic (alkaline) side to help minimize corrosion. pH values between 8 and 10 are desirable. This also helps retard the growth of biological organisms, as most bacteria, algae, and fungi prefer slightly acidic growing environments to grow in.

Here are some actual pH measurements of several coolant mixes I use:
(Beckman Model 340 pH meter)

3% Water Wetter in distilled water pH = 8.61
(4 oz. ww / quart water)

0.4% Chlorox bleach in distilled water pH = 10.21
(1 Tablespoon / quart water)

3% Water Wetter – 15% Prestone – distilled water pH = 8.75
(4 oz – 19 oz – 105 oz)

3% Water Wetter – 10% Prestone – 30% Methanol - distilled water pH = 8.38
(4 oz – 13 oz – 38 oz – 73 oz)

Note 1: Chlorox bleach (6% sodium hypochlorite in water) is very corrosive to aluminum and SS.

Note 2: Methanol is poisonous and toxic. I only use it in chill water systems operating below freezing.

Note3: It is important to periodically (6 mos – 1 yr) flush out the old and renew the chemical additives in your system. It seems like I am always tinkering with my systems, so they never get the chance to go that long without a refill.

Well there are a few facts… I hope they help answer more questions than they raise…

RoboTech

MadDogMe · 10-17-2002, 03:05 AM

Gee!, I hope you cut and pasted that RoboTech!!

...

It was the strong film soap creates that was worrying me, I never knew about 'non sudsing' detergent

...

I know exactly what surfactant means to the PC world, it's just it's an ambiguos sounding name no?. Fox Mulder walking on water would be a surfactant would'nt he?...

RoboTech · 10-18-2002, 07:25 AM

Hey MadDog,

Quote:

Originally posted by MadDogMe
Gee!, I hope you cut and pasted that RoboTech!! ...

Yes, I keep notes...

Quote:

Fox Mulder walking on water would be a surfactant would'nt he?... [/b]

LOL Good one...

mfpmax · 10-18-2002, 04:49 PM

This is quite a long thread, and I'm just gonna throw this out in the open and see if anyone catches...

But recently I found out the reason my car was overheating somewhat and it was in part to the fact that a large amount of "scale"(sp) had built up inside the radiator. Me and my dad then went down to the parts store to pick up some stuff to remove it. The container says it not only gets rid of the scale but also helps in cooling(like Water Wetter I guess), and prevents corrosion and future build up of scale.

Its called Pro Blend.

MadDogMe · 10-19-2002, 03:25 AM

I would'nt use it cause of its 'ascorbic'(is that right?) properties, anything that'll break down scale is unhealthy(check handling requirments) it could 'breath' through, or break down even!, the tube if potent enough.
The cooling probably comes as a result of there being no scale

. I'd stick to WW for added cooling...

bigben2k · 10-19-2002, 08:41 AM

The scale comes from the calcium, found in tap water. If one uses distilled water, then scale shouldn't be an issue.

I've never heard of PRO Blend, but Hmale pointed us all to Silkolene Pro CCA. Is this from the same line?

mfpmax · 10-19-2002, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MadDogMe

The cooling probably comes as a result of there being no scale . I'd stick to WW for added cooling...

Duh

No, I believe they proably have something in it to pull the same as WW, as they also sell something just for cooling and not radiator cleaning.

MadDogMe · 10-20-2002, 04:36 AM

Yep!, I would'nt use it anyway, there's so much stuff in there you dont need, I like the sound of the Silkolene WW equivilent, Silkolene are good people...

PS. does PurpleIce have the same bad smell that WaterWetter has?...

kenrippy · 10-20-2002, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MadDogMe

PS. does PurpleIce have the same bad smell that WaterWetter has?...

NO! I'm using Purple Ice and it's great. I was waiting for someone to mention this stuff. here's a couple links:

PURPLE ICE

PURPLE ICE

mfpmax · 10-20-2002, 02:35 PM

Here is the stuff I put into my car recently, the Pro-Blend stuff I mentioned...it has a opaque milky look...like silicone tubing.

kenrippy · 10-20-2002, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mfpmax
Here is the stuff I put into my car recently, the Pro-Blend stuff I mentioned...it has a opaque milky look...like silicone tubing.

one thing that scares me about that stuff is it says "stops some leaks" that tells me it has some sort of coagulant (sp) - something that could cause build up in tight areas like a water block w/ small channels.

mfpmax · 10-20-2002, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kenrippy
one thing that scares me about that stuff is it says "stops some leaks" that tells me it has some sort of coagulant (sp) - something that could cause build up in tight areas like a water block w/ small channels.

Yeah, I thought about that when I posted the picture, cause in the auto industry...leak sealers are bad cause they could also clog...

But if I were to put this into a system, I wouldn't put a large amount of it into the system, same for anti-freeze, only enough to do its job would be put into the system.

kenrippy · 10-20-2002, 04:47 PM

well, I ordered a couple bottles of Purple Ice from carparts.com and it was pretty cheap, might want to look into it. as a matter fact I can send ya some if ya want for less than Dtek

MadDogMe · 10-21-2002, 03:49 AM

I'd been happier if it'd come in a plastic bottle too

, are'nt many plastic parts in a car cooling system!. wonder how it reacts...

Axly · 10-21-2002, 04:15 AM

I saw that RoboTech used it for some systems, but noone else..
What about Methanol? Sure it's a bit poisonous, but I've handled enough of the stuff for RC engines to know what I'm doing. I don't know the exact proportions, but methanol improves the cooling properties to some extent when mixed with water, and when in higher concentration deteriorates it. It would work quite well for killing germs and it keeps the water from freezing (for sub-0 systems)

Downsides could be that it's bad for some types of plastic and it's poisonous.. Any more bad things about it? Anyone have more info on cooling/detergent properties?

mfpmax · 10-21-2002, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MadDogMe
I'd been happier if it'd come in a plastic bottle too , are'nt many plastic parts in a car cooling system!. wonder how it reacts...

Don't fool yourself now

MadDogMe · 10-21-2002, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Don't fool yourself now

Huh?,:shrug: . Was that in relation to 'no plastics'?...

Alloy block/water jacket, Copper rad', Brass thermostat, Rubber hoses...

09-27-2002, 02:26 AM	#51
shaft01 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Georgia Posts: 41	Big todo over this on another forum but just add a capful or two of clorox to your water.......it will KILL the bugs........it does deactivate after a couple weeks though.....BUT it also sterilizes a closed system.......I would think you need at least one critter to start a critter colony and after using the clorox you should have a sterile environment. __________________ System: BlackMax See website: webpages.charter.net/mlhg01/

10-13-2002, 03:22 AM	#53
V12\|V12 Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ohio-State! <--Money Hussle! SUCKS Posts: 292	I say, you DO NOT want to put ANY clorox into your system! I will significantly change the ph of the water to a caustic base side. Which is HIGHLY efficient at dissolving grease and any other lube that you've use to slip you tubes on and it will effect some plastics and the pump's impeller etc... DO NOT USE BLEACH. Like I said earlier, try out the Lysol, it works GREAT, I've YET to see any "white-coats: in my tubes! __________________ XP 1600+ AGOIA-Y (GreenLabel, UNLOCKED!@/ NF7-S 2.0/ PC 2700 DDR 10.5*172FSB(1806/ 1991 high), Vcore 1.792...@84.95Watts --86' Chevette Heater Core --1/2" Vinyl tubes --Via1300-Stealth Mod(QUIET!) ---Home made copper-tube block ---PVC small internal res

10-16-2002, 03:48 AM	#57
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	Is'nt oil used as a 'surface acting agent' when it's thrown overboard to calm waves, to make boarding easier. surely a Surfactant is anything that reacts to waters surface in any way?. otherwise it'd be a Surftenredant:shrug: ... I thought they put AF in 'Galvanic specific'(?). I would'nt put it in my all Cu system. Also I thought it was WaterWetter that left deposits on plastic if over~used?, and which also stained (silicone?, makes it go white?) tubing?... I'm not being contrary on purpose my friend , it's just like I said, 'I'd like to know for sure' about soap being a good thing, I think it' could reduce tension of the water maybe, but it puts a film on top of the water as well?:shrug: . I'm not being obstinate either, I've just seen one too many untruths touted as fact on the web before . so I'd like to be 100%... Last edited by MadDogMe; 10-16-2002 at 04:01 AM.

10-16-2002, 08:51 AM	#58
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Oil would float at the top of the water, so it would calm waves indeed. It's not a surfactant, in fact, it increases surface tension. In a rig, there is no surface exposed to air, and no oil to float on top. Depending on the oil, it might attach itself to tubing walls/copper channels, and you definitely don't want that, unless you're running an oil cooler. Liquid laundry detergent is something that I proposed some time back. It contains a surfactant, but is a bubbless soap, so pretty much ideal for watercooling. Dishwashing soap (the machine dishwasher) would work too. I would definitely stay away from the powder formats, because I don't care to try to dissolve this stuff in water, so that there is no powder residue to damage the pump. If it's already liquid, then it's not a worry (but I'd still feel it between my fingers for any kind of granularity). Of course, true to my avatar name, I haven't tried it, so if you do, you're on your own, but we would all like to see results. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

10-16-2002, 03:58 PM	#59
RoboTech Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 229	Water-coolant chemistry… some useful Facts Surfactants are used in PC water-cooling systems to promote better heat transfer. They do two things: 1) surfactants REDUCE water surface tension, which increases waters surface wetting ability (increased contact between water molecules and heat transfer surfaces) and 2) helps release numerous, tiny air bubbles, which get trapped on heat transfer surfaces (trapped microscopic air bubbles block heat flow). Two of the more popular commercial brands are Water Wetter and Purple Ice (both developed for high performance race car cooling systems). Adding a surfactant (in the low concentrations used in PC cooling systems) does not change the viscosity of water. Surfactants (Surface active agents) are also known as wetting agents Surfactants are organic chemicals that reduce the surface tension of water (Water has a naturally high surface tension – water likes to cling to itself – beads up) There are many different kinds of surfactants Soaps AND detergents are both surfactants Soap falls into one class of surfactants (anionic surfactants) made from animal fats and vegetable oils Detergents include several different types of surfactants (anionic and nonionic surfactants) made primarily from petrochemicals A surfactant molecule is made up of two parts. On one end is a carboxylate group (alkylated carboxylic acid) and on the other end is a long straight hydrocarbon chain. The carboxylate end is attracted to water. This is the (hydrophilic – water loving) end. The hydrocarbon chain end is repelled by water (hydrophobic – water hating) but is attracted to other molecules and surfaces. When a surfactant is added to water, it acts as a “bridge”, which allows the water to fully wet or spread out along surfaces that might otherwise repel the water molecules. (It is this same wetting ability that allows soaps and detergents to attach and suspend oil and grease for cleaning.) Commercial soap and detergent products can be used in a coolant system (VERY small amount – 1 drop) but I do NOT recommend it as these products generally contain many other additives (emulsifiers, sudsing agents, smelly stuff, etc.) that are not beneficial for PC water-cooling applications. pH pH is a measure of how acidic or basic a solution is. The scale ranges from 1 to 14 (1 being extremely acidic, 7 being neutral, and 14 being extremely basic). In a PC water-cooling system we generally want the pH to be slightly on the basic (alkaline) side to help minimize corrosion. pH values between 8 and 10 are desirable. This also helps retard the growth of biological organisms, as most bacteria, algae, and fungi prefer slightly acidic growing environments to grow in. Here are some actual pH measurements of several coolant mixes I use: (Beckman Model 340 pH meter) 3% Water Wetter in distilled water pH = 8.61 (4 oz. ww / quart water) 0.4% Chlorox bleach in distilled water pH = 10.21 (1 Tablespoon / quart water) 3% Water Wetter – 15% Prestone – distilled water pH = 8.75 (4 oz – 19 oz – 105 oz) 3% Water Wetter – 10% Prestone – 30% Methanol - distilled water pH = 8.38 (4 oz – 13 oz – 38 oz – 73 oz) Note 1: Chlorox bleach (6% sodium hypochlorite in water) is very corrosive to aluminum and SS. Note 2: Methanol is poisonous and toxic. I only use it in chill water systems operating below freezing. Note3: It is important to periodically (6 mos – 1 yr) flush out the old and renew the chemical additives in your system. It seems like I am always tinkering with my systems, so they never get the chance to go that long without a refill. Well there are a few facts… I hope they help answer more questions than they raise… RoboTech Last edited by RoboTech; 10-16-2002 at 08:06 PM.

09-27-2002, 07:54 PM	#52
redleader Thermophile Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: The deserts of Tucson, Az Posts: 1,264	Isn't there is Chlorine in bleech? That would do all sorts of nasty things to a copper waterblock, no?

10-13-2002, 04:06 AM	#54
g.l.amour Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: on da case Posts: 933	would vinegar be any good? i wouldn't know where to even get lysol...

10-13-2002, 05:37 AM	#55
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	I still find it hard to believe soap would be for the better, I know it's a surfactant, but surfactant does'nt automaticly imply reduced surface tension does it. I'd have thought the film of soap would have increased tension. I know WW makes water foam, but are they strong bubbles?, like soap ones are?... I'd like to see something definative rather than an opinion. I'm not saying it is or is'nt, I'd like to be 100% that's all ... Why do people put anti freeze in if they don't have mixed metals?. it's only with mixed metals you get electro galvanic corrosion is'nt it?...

10-15-2002, 12:22 PM	#56
Brians256 Pro/Staff Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Klamath Falls, OR Posts: 1,439	First, a surfactant reduces surface tension. That's the definition of surfactant. Second, people put antifreeze in their systems for two reasons. Normal corrosion prevention (non-galvanic) and to reduce the freezing temperature (sometimes the alcohols interfere with their particular tubing and reservoir materials). Antifreeze does help with normal corrosion, but, to be honest the normal corrosion probably isn't severe enough to be of any effect. Be honest... how long do we actually keep our systems? I doubt that a watercooling loop actually stays untouched for more than a year!

10-17-2002, 03:05 AM	#60
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	Gee!, I hope you cut and pasted that RoboTech!! ... It was the strong film soap creates that was worrying me, I never knew about 'non sudsing' detergent ... I know exactly what surfactant means to the PC world, it's just it's an ambiguos sounding name no?. Fox Mulder walking on water would be a surfactant would'nt he?...

10-18-2002, 04:49 PM	#62
mfpmax Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Rockledge,FL,US Posts: 731	This is quite a long thread, and I'm just gonna throw this out in the open and see if anyone catches... But recently I found out the reason my car was overheating somewhat and it was in part to the fact that a large amount of "scale"(sp) had built up inside the radiator. Me and my dad then went down to the parts store to pick up some stuff to remove it. The container says it not only gets rid of the scale but also helps in cooling(like Water Wetter I guess), and prevents corrosion and future build up of scale. Its called Pro Blend. __________________ My old and retired watercooling setup. Watercooled K6-2 450 at 600 Also Retired - Watercooling an XP1800@1782MHz

10-19-2002, 03:25 AM	#63
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	I would'nt use it cause of its 'ascorbic'(is that right?) properties, anything that'll break down scale is unhealthy(check handling requirments) it could 'breath' through, or break down even!, the tube if potent enough. The cooling probably comes as a result of there being no scale . I'd stick to WW for added cooling...

10-19-2002, 08:41 AM	#64
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	The scale comes from the calcium, found in tap water. If one uses distilled water, then scale shouldn't be an issue. I've never heard of PRO Blend, but Hmale pointed us all to Silkolene Pro CCA. Is this from the same line? __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

10-20-2002, 04:36 AM	#66
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	Yep!, I would'nt use it anyway, there's so much stuff in there you dont need, I like the sound of the Silkolene WW equivilent, Silkolene are good people... PS. does PurpleIce have the same bad smell that WaterWetter has?...

10-20-2002, 02:35 PM	#68
mfpmax Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Rockledge,FL,US Posts: 731	Here is the stuff I put into my car recently, the Pro-Blend stuff I mentioned...it has a opaque milky look...like silicone tubing. __________________ My old and retired watercooling setup. Watercooled K6-2 450 at 600 Also Retired - Watercooling an XP1800@1782MHz

10-20-2002, 04:47 PM	#71
kenrippy Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: so. california Posts: 20	well, I ordered a couple bottles of Purple Ice from carparts.com and it was pretty cheap, might want to look into it. as a matter fact I can send ya some if ya want for less than Dtek __________________ heat ebay

10-21-2002, 03:49 AM	#72
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	I'd been happier if it'd come in a plastic bottle too , are'nt many plastic parts in a car cooling system!. wonder how it reacts...

10-21-2002, 04:15 AM	#73
Axly Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 20	I saw that RoboTech used it for some systems, but noone else.. What about Methanol? Sure it's a bit poisonous, but I've handled enough of the stuff for RC engines to know what I'm doing. I don't know the exact proportions, but methanol improves the cooling properties to some extent when mixed with water, and when in higher concentration deteriorates it. It would work quite well for killing germs and it keeps the water from freezing (for sub-0 systems) Downsides could be that it's bad for some types of plastic and it's poisonous.. Any more bad things about it? Anyone have more info on cooling/detergent properties? Last edited by Axly; 10-21-2002 at 06:07 AM.

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