Ground Cooling

Obasau · 01-31-2003, 02:10 PM

I know this idea is not exactly new (Bladerunner...

), but i thought about doing it the same way. I cant find a tank like he used anywhere and i cant come up with anything else to use.
Now i thought why not just bury some PVC tubing about 2 meters deep just outside my window.
would you guys think that would work good?

bigben2k · 01-31-2003, 02:27 PM

Maybe, but the PVC is an insulator, where a metal will conduct temperatures better.

Have you looked anywhere? Bladerunner's tank looks like an old industrial gas cannister. You should be able to find a number of alternatives: a compressed air tank, propane tank (be cautious!), an old gas tank from a car (very dangerous!), ...

Obasau · 01-31-2003, 02:43 PM

yeah i know the pvc is an insulator, but maybe its better because i dont want the temperatures to get too low because i wouldnt have to insulate my blocks and tubing. As long the water will be cooled to about 10-15 degC i'd be happy.

bigben2k · 01-31-2003, 02:48 PM

Ok... but make sure you get good strong PVC: you don't want it to crack, when winter hits!

You can bury it along with gravel, that should prevent it from being crushed from ice (but it might not cool as well).

Obasau · 01-31-2003, 03:02 PM

well i planned on using insulation until its deep enough not to freeze. my dad said the ground doesnt freeze more than 50cm in the winter here.
the tubing might even be submerged in the ground water, because its really high at the moment.

Blackeagle · 01-31-2003, 03:12 PM

That propane tank would work real well, but like Ben said take great care. Another tank that would be good, but require the same care, would be a oxygen or acetylene (sp) tank, as they are even stronger than a propane tank. A Hard to find but also very good option would be a helium tank, about like a oxygen/acetylene tank for constrution.

One of the bigger poblems with all the above named tanks is that, at least in my area of the country they are no longer sold, they are leased. You might be able to pick one up at a farm sale though as many farmers have torch sets.

edit: Duh, just now notice you're in germany. Still those would make good tanks, depending on regulations there.

Obasau · 01-31-2003, 03:21 PM

"Duh, just now notice you're in germany. Still those would make good tanks, depending on regulations there. "

hehe thats what i was about to post. i cant find any tanks like that, because they are reused and not thrown away.
maybe i can use the PVC and put a piece of copper pipe every now and then to increase cooling.

airspirit · 01-31-2003, 06:48 PM

Use thickwall copper pipe, like what is used in your house. Make a big winding mess of it, and bury it. Simple. You can also find adapters to make it connect directly to your PVC. That will cool like a mofo and is available everywhere penguins aren't sold.

dima y · 01-31-2003, 08:00 PM

well maybe not but here it comes:

you can make it out off copper pipes and make a grid out of it LIKE an irrigation system, barry it flat into the ground like 1m deep so A) you get good cooling and B) is warms up the ground during the winter so your plants dont die

but seriosly though i would use copper because it conducts heat better then PVC, you'll get better temps that way

Mikey Boo · 01-31-2003, 08:28 PM

try goin to a welding shop and see if they have any air or sediline containers that they dont use any more. u might be ablt to get a old one for cheap. also u might even try a scuba shop for thier air tanks. at scuba shops tanks have to be tested every 5(i think) years to see if they meet standards. if they dont they can not be used anymore, so they are junk to the divers. damn that makes me miss diving...

Obasau · 02-01-2003, 04:15 AM

i was looking for copper pipe, but i only could find pieces that were 3 meters long. I dont think i can curl it up.
And i'm not looking for coldest temperatures here because if the water drops below 9-10 degC i'll get condensation.

Volenti · 02-01-2003, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Obasau
i was looking for copper pipe, but i only could find pieces that were 3 meters long. I dont think i can curl it up.
And i'm not looking for coldest temperatures here because if the water drops below 9-10 degC i'll get condensation.

copper pipe generally comes in 2 flavours, "hard drawn" and the other flexable type, soft drawn or something like that, the soft stuff comes in curled up flat spiral, just attach a connecter to each end and you're good to go.

The plumbing section in most decent sized hardware stores should carry the soft stuff at least.

bigben2k · 02-01-2003, 09:44 AM

I like Airspirit's idea, of burrying a mess of copper tubing! Most hardware stores should carry flex copper tubing.

Something to keep in mind is the galvanic corrosion: wether you use a steel tank, aluminium, ... if you have a different metal in your waterblock, you'll be encountering the effect. PVC prevents that, but so would copper tubing

(at least for me).

Another way around it, is to design some kind of heat exchanger, and isolate the PC from the underground tank, into two seperate loops: it's less efficient, but you could have better control over temperatures, where you wouldn't have to isolate the PC's pipes.

So many options, so little time...

Obasau · 02-01-2003, 12:59 PM

Quote:

So many options, so little time...

so true...

i kept in mind that anything aluminum wouldnt be good for a tank, cause my blocks are all copper.
i think i'll do it with 13x3 mm tubing but with parts of the tubing replaced with copper pipe.
that should give plenty of cooling.

TerraMex · 02-01-2003, 01:16 PM

http://www.7volts.com/cooling.htm ...

I knew i saw a few pics of bladerunner's cooling experiment.

And here are more details http://www.hexus.net/review.php?review=269

Obasau · 02-03-2003, 08:41 AM

i looked on ebay and it came up with this.
Something like that should work, right ?
Does anyone have an idea what those are made of ?
I guess i could use some antifreeze in case they are aluminum.

Another problem would be if it actually gets to cold. It definately wont drop below freezing, but slightly below the dewpoint in my room. Insulating the pipes wont be a problem, but what about the waterblocks (CPU+Chipset+Video) ?

Update: or maybe that one ?
Its HUUUGE (180cm=6ft)

redleader · 02-03-2003, 09:57 PM

You're even considering PVC? Copper pipe is made for this, not to mention its cheaper.

Obasau · 02-07-2003, 04:29 PM

Ok i just got me this at ebay.
Its a 5 liter bottle.
Now i need to get some fittings and put them on the bottle somehow.

bigben2k · 02-07-2003, 05:04 PM

Ok, you got it.

For the fitting, you can simply use a cap (PVC or brass), drill two holes in it, and weld (or goop) copper tubes through it. Then, connect your hoses to the copper tubes.

You probably want to twist/turn one of the ends of those tubes, so that it can rest at the bottom of the tank, yet not be blocked from sucking water out.

Galvanic corrosion may be your enemy here, watch out for different metals.

Obasau · 02-07-2003, 05:10 PM

yeah i thought about galvanic corrosion, but i'll just add antifreeze to take care of it ( i probably would have anyway, not to risk blowing the tank in case it gets really cold outside).
i dont really get the fitting part ben. could you make a little paint diagram to help me understand it ?
thanks

redleader · 02-07-2003, 08:19 PM

Its probably steel. Though its a poor choice. I don't understand why you want to bury a tank at all, particularly since you won't find a copper tank easily.

Just bury the pipe. Its dirt cheap, free if you know where to get it. Just bury a 15 ft section of it ( or a few parallel lengths of it if you don't want to dig a lot). That way you'll have much, much more soil to spread the heat out through. Plus its copper so you'll be corrosion free.

bigben2k · 02-07-2003, 08:37 PM

Here you go!

Obasau · 02-08-2003, 03:24 AM

redleader: the reason i chose the tank was, i couldnt find any copper pipe i could use at all. I went to several hardware stores but none except one had any and the one only had 3 meter long pieces that were 10 euros. and i read in that hexus.net link terra mex posted before
"Initially I used an underground copper pipe, but this tuned out to be too small, and the water in the system warmed up after a few hours under heavy load. So I decided overkill would be better!".
Of course i dont know exactly what kind of pipes he used but i just decided if it works for bladerunner and that guy it'll work for me.
Ben: ah, ok i understand! Thanks for the pic.

Now the problem is condensation. I calculated the dew point in my room at an average of 9-10 degC. I dont exactly know how cold the water from the tank will be, but probably below that.
Insulating the tubing is no problem at all but what about the waterblocks ?

bigben2k · 02-08-2003, 07:50 AM

You can follow standard insulating instructions for people using pelts.

If I was you, I'd set it up first, then run it in a loop with a pump only. Measure your water temps to see how it actually works.

Obasau · 02-08-2003, 09:01 AM

yeah ill try it with the blocks off the computer first to check for condensation.
I thought since its not as cold as a pelt i dont need all the heavy insulation like silicone and dieelectric grease all over the socket and stuff like that.
i guess the only way to find out is to try it.

01-31-2003, 02:10 PM	#1
Obasau Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Munich, Germany Posts: 69	Ground Cooling I know this idea is not exactly new (Bladerunner... ), but i thought about doing it the same way. I cant find a tank like he used anywhere and i cant come up with anything else to use. Now i thought why not just bury some PVC tubing about 2 meters deep just outside my window. would you guys think that would work good?

01-31-2003, 02:27 PM	#2
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Maybe, but the PVC is an insulator, where a metal will conduct temperatures better. Have you looked anywhere? Bladerunner's tank looks like an old industrial gas cannister. You should be able to find a number of alternatives: a compressed air tank, propane tank (be cautious!), an old gas tank from a car (very dangerous!), ... __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

01-31-2003, 02:48 PM	#4
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Ok... but make sure you get good strong PVC: you don't want it to crack, when winter hits! You can bury it along with gravel, that should prevent it from being crushed from ice (but it might not cool as well). __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

01-31-2003, 03:12 PM	#6
Blackeagle Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A = Michigan Posts: 1,243	That propane tank would work real well, but like Ben said take great care. Another tank that would be good, but require the same care, would be a oxygen or acetylene (sp) tank, as they are even stronger than a propane tank. A Hard to find but also very good option would be a helium tank, about like a oxygen/acetylene tank for constrution. One of the bigger poblems with all the above named tanks is that, at least in my area of the country they are no longer sold, they are leased. You might be able to pick one up at a farm sale though as many farmers have torch sets. edit: Duh, just now notice you're in germany. Still those would make good tanks, depending on regulations there. Last edited by Blackeagle; 01-31-2003 at 03:19 PM.

01-31-2003, 06:48 PM	#8
airspirit Been /.'d... have you? Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Moscow, ID Posts: 1,986	Use thickwall copper pipe, like what is used in your house. Make a big winding mess of it, and bury it. Simple. You can also find adapters to make it connect directly to your PVC. That will cool like a mofo and is available everywhere penguins aren't sold. __________________ #!/bin/sh {who;} {last;} {pause;} {grep;} {touch;} {unzip;} mount /dev/girl -t {wet;} {fsck;} {fsck;} {fsck;} {fsck;} echo yes yes yes {yes;} umount {/dev/girl;zip;} rm -rf {wet.spot;} {sleep;} finger: permission denied

01-31-2003, 02:43 PM	#3
Obasau Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Munich, Germany Posts: 69	yeah i know the pvc is an insulator, but maybe its better because i dont want the temperatures to get too low because i wouldnt have to insulate my blocks and tubing. As long the water will be cooled to about 10-15 degC i'd be happy.

01-31-2003, 03:02 PM	#5
Obasau Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Munich, Germany Posts: 69	well i planned on using insulation until its deep enough not to freeze. my dad said the ground doesnt freeze more than 50cm in the winter here. the tubing might even be submerged in the ground water, because its really high at the moment.

01-31-2003, 03:21 PM	#7
Obasau Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Munich, Germany Posts: 69	"Duh, just now notice you're in germany. Still those would make good tanks, depending on regulations there. " hehe thats what i was about to post. i cant find any tanks like that, because they are reused and not thrown away. maybe i can use the PVC and put a piece of copper pipe every now and then to increase cooling.

01-31-2003, 08:00 PM	#9
dima y Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: palo alto, CA Posts: 164	ok i have best idea well maybe not but here it comes: you can make it out off copper pipes and make a grid out of it LIKE an irrigation system, barry it flat into the ground like 1m deep so A) you get good cooling and B) is warms up the ground during the winter so your plants dont die but seriosly though i would use copper because it conducts heat better then PVC, you'll get better temps that way

01-31-2003, 08:28 PM	#10
Mikey Boo Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 78	try goin to a welding shop and see if they have any air or sediline containers that they dont use any more. u might be ablt to get a old one for cheap. also u might even try a scuba shop for thier air tanks. at scuba shops tanks have to be tested every 5(i think) years to see if they meet standards. if they dont they can not be used anymore, so they are junk to the divers. damn that makes me miss diving... __________________ Watercoolin + a leak = a wet floor

02-01-2003, 04:15 AM	#11
Obasau Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Munich, Germany Posts: 69	i was looking for copper pipe, but i only could find pieces that were 3 meters long. I dont think i can curl it up. And i'm not looking for coldest temperatures here because if the water drops below 9-10 degC i'll get condensation.

02-01-2003, 09:44 AM	#13
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	I like Airspirit's idea, of burrying a mess of copper tubing! Most hardware stores should carry flex copper tubing. Something to keep in mind is the galvanic corrosion: wether you use a steel tank, aluminium, ... if you have a different metal in your waterblock, you'll be encountering the effect. PVC prevents that, but so would copper tubing (at least for me). Another way around it, is to design some kind of heat exchanger, and isolate the PC from the underground tank, into two seperate loops: it's less efficient, but you could have better control over temperatures, where you wouldn't have to isolate the PC's pipes. So many options, so little time... __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

02-01-2003, 01:16 PM	#15
TerraMex Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Portugal, Europe Posts: 870	http://www.7volts.com/cooling.htm ... I knew i saw a few pics of bladerunner's cooling experiment. And here are more details http://www.hexus.net/review.php?review=269 __________________ "we need more cowbell."

02-03-2003, 08:41 AM	#16
Obasau Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Munich, Germany Posts: 69	i looked on ebay and it came up with this. Something like that should work, right ? Does anyone have an idea what those are made of ? I guess i could use some antifreeze in case they are aluminum. Another problem would be if it actually gets to cold. It definately wont drop below freezing, but slightly below the dewpoint in my room. Insulating the pipes wont be a problem, but what about the waterblocks (CPU+Chipset+Video) ? Update: or maybe that one ? Its HUUUGE (180cm=6ft) Last edited by Obasau; 02-03-2003 at 08:51 AM.

02-03-2003, 09:57 PM	#17
redleader Thermophile Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: The deserts of Tucson, Az Posts: 1,264	You're even considering PVC? Copper pipe is made for this, not to mention its cheaper.

02-07-2003, 04:29 PM	#18
Obasau Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Munich, Germany Posts: 69	Ok i just got me this at ebay. Its a 5 liter bottle. Now i need to get some fittings and put them on the bottle somehow.

02-07-2003, 05:04 PM	#19
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Ok, you got it. For the fitting, you can simply use a cap (PVC or brass), drill two holes in it, and weld (or goop) copper tubes through it. Then, connect your hoses to the copper tubes. You probably want to twist/turn one of the ends of those tubes, so that it can rest at the bottom of the tank, yet not be blocked from sucking water out. Galvanic corrosion may be your enemy here, watch out for different metals. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

02-07-2003, 05:10 PM	#20
Obasau Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Munich, Germany Posts: 69	yeah i thought about galvanic corrosion, but i'll just add antifreeze to take care of it ( i probably would have anyway, not to risk blowing the tank in case it gets really cold outside). i dont really get the fitting part ben. could you make a little paint diagram to help me understand it ? thanks

02-07-2003, 08:19 PM	#21
redleader Thermophile Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: The deserts of Tucson, Az Posts: 1,264	Its probably steel. Though its a poor choice. I don't understand why you want to bury a tank at all, particularly since you won't find a copper tank easily. Just bury the pipe. Its dirt cheap, free if you know where to get it. Just bury a 15 ft section of it ( or a few parallel lengths of it if you don't want to dig a lot). That way you'll have much, much more soil to spread the heat out through. Plus its copper so you'll be corrosion free.

02-08-2003, 03:24 AM	#23
Obasau Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Munich, Germany Posts: 69	redleader: the reason i chose the tank was, i couldnt find any copper pipe i could use at all. I went to several hardware stores but none except one had any and the one only had 3 meter long pieces that were 10 euros. and i read in that hexus.net link terra mex posted before "Initially I used an underground copper pipe, but this tuned out to be too small, and the water in the system warmed up after a few hours under heavy load. So I decided overkill would be better!". Of course i dont know exactly what kind of pipes he used but i just decided if it works for bladerunner and that guy it'll work for me. Ben: ah, ok i understand! Thanks for the pic. Now the problem is condensation. I calculated the dew point in my room at an average of 9-10 degC. I dont exactly know how cold the water from the tank will be, but probably below that. Insulating the tubing is no problem at all but what about the waterblocks ?

02-08-2003, 07:50 AM	#24
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	You can follow standard insulating instructions for people using pelts. If I was you, I'd set it up first, then run it in a loop with a pump only. Measure your water temps to see how it actually works. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

02-08-2003, 09:01 AM	#25
Obasau Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Munich, Germany Posts: 69	yeah ill try it with the blocks off the computer first to check for condensation. I thought since its not as cold as a pelt i dont need all the heavy insulation like silicone and dieelectric grease all over the socket and stuff like that. i guess the only way to find out is to try it.

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