Tests of a #rotor style block...and a question

[webmedic]

Originally posted by unregistered
any "C/W" is specific to that system only
care to be more specific ?

"insufficient for proper analysis"

1) specifically what is insufficient ?

2) what constitutes "proper analysis" ?

Ah I was waiting for this bill. Hm No use in arguing with you learning hath made the mad.

You know as well as I that the c/w is not completely what is being refered to here and you above all others should know that in a system with different pumps and different blocks the performace will vary widely depending on how the system is tuned.

Show me one person that will be able to fit your 1500-2000$ worth of equipment into his case and take it to the lan party and I'll admit I'm wrong. (no frankencases either).

Untill then show me one pump on the market that will vary it's output depending on the block it's put on. Well there may be some expensinve high end pumps that will vary their output but still no user will have such a thing.

So bill you know know a bunch of c/w ratings that in itself is good. this shows you that pump a at pressure a performs better than pump b at pressure a fine and dandy. What iwould like to know if is you take a pump that any regular user will use and put a block on it how it will perform compared to another pump on the exact same setup. In other words no adjustments to guess at different pressure ratings. This was my idea all along. In your estimation the test would be to simple but it wore closely represent what other users will see.

It is this relization of just how extensive the testing would be that made me back off as I'm sure you know. I don't have the money, resources, or extensive knowledge of thermo dynamics. However that does not leave me bereft of common sence. My learning is on other fields witch I use to make a living with.

So for me it's down to doing this for fun. The same fun which was almost killed by overrationalization. I will not try to argue with you on this point since you either refuse to prove me wrong or simply hide behind your learning. Really I'm sure thee are many that really want to know billa. There are very few poeple who can do this testing as I'm sure you know. You have the equipment prove me wrong with the numbers if you can.

All I'm asking for is a test as the users would use it on a day to day basis not in a 2000$ lab.

[webmedic]

Originally posted by winewood
webmedic
A post or two proving your research to disprove BillA conclusion is constructive critisim. Saying his results are thrown out because you find a variable in your tests isn't exactly conclusive that you can dismiss the most qualitative rational availiable.
I personally find his results most helpful in planning out my next setup and equipment. More so than most disposable opinions that only rely on what they have been told to think, or have been paid to promote. I can easily dismiss 90% of the posters opinions on blocks, but BillA's data can't be dismissed as easily. I think it would be most irresponsible to not answer BillA's questions. If you can't answer them, then you can't dismiss them so quickly, neither should anyone else.

I'm not trying to dismiss him. His data is very good for builders of blocks not users. As far as being unbiased yes as far as I know he is that and I have no proof otherwise. I was answering him when you posted so you will need to read my post above.

[BillA]

that rant is a bit incoherent there webmedic, so I will take the liberty of paraphrasing your critique to try and identify the specific part(s) of my test procedure with which you find fault

is it "in a system with different pumps and different blocks the performace will vary widely depending on how the system is tuned" ?

it is not clear to me where you are headed with this comment
- a specific WCing system will have a single flow rate deriving from the pump and other components selected (and their installation)
? - how does one "tune" a WCing system ?
and no, unless one changes the air flow (or its temp) through the rad, that system will have but a single "C/W"

now "with different pumps and different blocks" the performance will change
- but then these are different systems, no ?

your question: "What iwould like to know if is you take a pump that any regular user will use and put a block on it how it will perform compared to another pump on the exact same setup."
is easily answered -> look at the fu*ken pumps' P-Q curves !

(a clue here to get you started: if pump B's curve is above and to the right of pump A's, the wb WILL perform better with pump B - the CPU will be cooler)

webmedic
this question has NOTHING AT ALL to do with my testing, and everything to do with users (including you) knowing how to use the pump mfgr's data sheets
- you seem to be under the impression that understanding wb performance requires testing each pump with each wb; this is completely wrong
(and if you follow that dead end to its conclusion you will have to test each pump, wb, rad, hose size, and fitting combination and permutation to 'understand' wb performance)

I am suspecting you are also confusing 'pump (discharge) pressure' with 'pressure drop'
- the pump pressure per se in the ranges we deal with is largely irrelevant to wb performance
- and the pressure drop across the wb is a function of the flow rate, nothing more

for my tests I use a large pump and 'drop' the excess pressure/flow capacity across a throttling valve and by so doing am able to replicate the performance of ALL pumps as I can vary the flow rate from low to high

webmedic,
your difficulty is that you do not understand how to read the graphs
each one portrays a continuum of results, but only one single point on a curve will be germane to a specific system

it is quite un-necessary that I 'prove' anything, the test results are in the public domain, and my equipment and procedures are rather fully described
and please, $2000 ? - oh my !
no, its now rather beyond $20,000 (and still outa control !)

I have no difficulty with criticism, its good because it forces me to re-assess my activities and conclusions
I would suggest that you spend some additional time reading some of the articles, and GOOGLE what you don't understand
-> in the future, try to be VERY SPECIFIC in describing what you do not agree with, for then I will limit my response to the points you raise

and yes webmedic, I understand that there are others who also have difficulty understanding what I present -- but to 'play technical' you have to (learn to) 'talk technical'

[webmedic]

Firts let me say Never mind bill i can read your data just fine it just so happens I've been gone for a long time and had not read your latest I just went over to overclockers and read it. Very good stuff bill.

By the way bill I do understnad at least enough to be dangerous but mostly I understand enough to be able to fdraw out the data and use it for my own project wich are simply for fun now.

Forgive me for even saying anything I will just sit back now and enjoy the sport of watercooling.

Having said that it's time to have fun again.

And bill thanks for you dedication to this and providing a cource of data to the community.

Please forgive me.

[BillA]

its cool webmedic - nothing to forgive

but if you say ""insufficient for proper analysis",
I'm going to ask how so

[webmedic]

No the last time I saw your work ther were not quite as many graphs and there was not the nice article showing results and all that. It really went into allot more complete results as opposed to the bare data I was seeing before.

[g.l.amour]

i don't follow the reasoning webmedic. i might be mistaken, but upto now i think u did a very good job at collecting free WB's. everything about billA's testing is not giving a simple winner, but laying out all cards in the open so one can find alot of info if one has some idea about current flow measurments in a system...

what is the other alternative? that i demand that the tester rebuilds my exact system completely?

i'm sry if this sounds like a flame

[BillA]

and I agree that g.l.amour's point needs to be emphasized

webmedic solicited wbs for 'promised' testing
he may have paid, I believe at least some were donated
(please correct me if they were all purchased)
then nothing

this is a HUGE dis-service to other testers, and to the wb mfgrs
but webmedic is not the only one to have publicly announced great plans - of which nothing materialized
this is a recurring problem as wannabes underestimate the real difficulties in testing WCing components
(shit, the ‘review sites’ are worse)

note that I am not complaining from a 'personal' basis
as I buy no wbs (or pumps or rads), and a mfgr must in fact pay me for my work
- but I am struck by the position of #Rotor, a very small mfgr, with a very GOOD product, that I have encouraged for a long time to get some independent test results (I tried to get him to send JoeC a wb, unsuccessfully)
-- I can only hope that #Rotor was paid for his wb

[webmedic]

lol no I wish it was the case. Most all the stuff I ended up with I purchased myself. I recived a new top for the swift tech from cool techinca. I have one of the old style I modded with 1/2 inch pip by drilling it out and wanted to know how much this affected performance.

Not only that the cool technica guys were really nice to deal with.

I purchased a north bridge block from #rotor and did recieve another block of #rotors after another tester got done with it. Wich I stated before I don't mind passing on.

If I had recived more interest I may have continued but really now lets just say I have an expensive habbit.

[BillA]

I stand corrected, webmedic has integrity

but boy I don't understand a lack of interest ??

[webmedic]

Billa it's not a lack of wanting to do the testing. It's more like some real world stuff like family that are way more important. I had allot of the testing equipment lined up for purchase but the expense is great as you yourself know. However; my family comes first and I decided at that point it was better spent going to yellowstone for the summer or any number or other things. My family is something I want around later on. Water cooling as we know it will be gone in a few years but my family will not be.

[g.l.amour]

well, if those blox are your property , then i apologize for the insinuation.

[webmedic]

No problem. It's just a hobby now. I'm here to learn and make blocks just like everybody else.

The koolance case will riegn supreem because it's cheep and who cares right.

I really don't care about it all becuase it really never seems to be the good products that win. Just the cheapest with the biggest advertising.

None of that can keep me from having fun now and making my own stuff and just like everybody else I get to have fun lookig at the purdy pictures.

And no I'm not insane just jaded. This really has nothing to do with billa his testing or mine but the computer industry in general. So many manufacturers puting out garbage and making good money at it while the good products go unnoticed.

#rotor's blocks would be a good example of the ones that go unnoticed.

[#Rotor]

unnoticed by the masses maybe, but that is ok...... I would rather have that, than being unnoticed by those of whom I have a high regard...
All involved are making good arguments, but I think Webmedic made the one I most agree with, it should be done for fun. If we loose the FUN part, we might just as well call it a day and go buy a DeLL. I'm sure, agreement on the absence of FUN with such a purchase, will be unanimous


as for water-cooling disappearing in a couple of years...... Not while I have something to through at it.....