High pressure pump with small ID tubes?

starck · 02-13-2003, 05:24 AM

Greetings,
I'm new here hello everyone

I am about to order the Iwaki MD20rz, its featuring a 210GPH @ 0ft head and a Max head of 24ft. I am worried about the low flow, even it has a 24ft max head, but comparing to the Eheim 1250, the MD20rz is like half the flow.
I'll be using 3/8" ID tubes, or even a smaller 8mm ID tubes, is it a bit too small to use with the MD20rz? The entire setup consists of two Swiftech MCW50-T, a radiator and a reservoir, probably two more hdd cooler.
Shall I go for bigger tube ID? I prefer 8mm or 10mm bcos I'll be using some German made parts, the largest they're offering is 10mm. Am I loosing performance with small tubes?

Thanks for yer help, appreciate it

starck

8-Ball · 02-13-2003, 05:57 AM

It might put a lot of strain on the pump, though you will still get high flow rates.

I might be possible to setup parallel loops with just the one pump.

8-ball

Volenti · 02-13-2003, 07:08 AM

with a system like you have in mind (mostly 3/8'' or smaller tubing) I can garantee that , at the end fo the day, the iwaki will have a higher in system flowrate.

I own an iwaki MD-20RZ, and have done a lot of DIY exprimenting with pumps (just do a search for my name on the forums)

Volenti · 02-13-2003, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 8-Ball
It might put a lot of strain on the pump, though you will still get high flow rates.

I might be possible to setup parallel loops with just the one pump.

8-ball

yes paralell loops with a "pond" style pump (eheim) would also work well.

starck · 02-13-2003, 07:31 AM

Thanks for the replies

I'll do a search and see your results.

Quick questions, am I loosing performance with smaller tubes? I liked the quick connect thing, lesser chance to leak, but theyre 6mm ID, or I can go with 10mm barbed, I'll need a lot of clamps and since the pump has pretty high pressure, Im afraid chances of leaking will increase.
Btw I'll be using a 2x120mm rad or a 3x120mm rad to cool the 2 80w pelts.

starck

Since87 · 02-13-2003, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by starck
comparing to the Eheim 1250, the MD20rz is like half the flow.

I doubt that anyone has a functional watercooling system where an Eheim 1250 is actually providing half its max flowrate spec. Max flowrate means little in watercooling.

bigben2k · 02-13-2003, 08:58 AM

The issue here is: how much pressure are you willing to loose to tubing restrictions?

Use Darcy, and calculate the pressure drop.

Alternatively, as a guide, you want to keep the flow speed under 5 feet per second (apply a little math).

If you reduce the pressure drop through the tubes, you'll have more pressure available to the components (block, rad), and you'll end up with a higher flow rate.

starck · 02-13-2003, 09:38 AM

Thanks again for all the input

I've read about better not restricting the inlet of the pump, but then Im getting more confused about my setup.

I kinda prefer going for 1/2" ID tubes, but then again bcos I'll be using some Innovatek and Aqua-computer's parts, their fittings are like 6mm quick connect or a maximum of 10mm barbed.
Maybe I shouldnt get a the MD20rz?
Sorry for my ignorance, the setup Im running now is a Koolance, this is actually my first self built WC system

I have already bought the MCW50-T, two of them, for the GPU and the NB, and the block is able to take smallest 3/8"OD QC, or 1/2"ID tubes, pretty flexible, but the problem goes to the Rad, with G1/4" thread, and the reservoir, 1/8" thread.

So, shall I run my system like this :

Or shall I simply run everything with their default 6mm ID tubes

Thanks a lot! You guys are really helpful Ive already learned a lot by reading out the posts.

starck

bigben2k · 02-13-2003, 10:15 AM

You could stick with 3/8 tubing, but I wouldn't: it'd be too big of a pressure drop. Of course this doesn't mean that you'll get much better temperatures.

In your case, you need to do a couple of things:
#1: use a big ID hose for the pump inlet. Everything else can stay the same.

To simplify your setup, you can put the res after the blocks, and before the pump: it should minimize the amount of modification you'll have to do (Use 1/2 tubing only from the res to the pump).

#2 if you decide to drop the 3/8 tubing, it would be easier for you to replace the fittings on the blocks, to something that can accept say, 1/2 ID tubing. Personally, I prefer polypropylene (or nylon) barbs, with hose clamps (brass is also easy to find). This of course is completely up to you.

starck · 02-13-2003, 10:28 AM

Thanks bigben!

The reason why I put the res and rad together, they are made with German fittings, which could be converted to a maximum of 10mm barbed fitting, is it a good idea to use a reducer from 1/2"ID reducing it to 10mm? I mean am I loosing a lot of flow here?
The blocks can handle anything from 3/8"OD to 1/2"ID, in fact I already have the fittings for 3/8"OD or 1/2"ID. But only the blocks, the rad and the res can go up to 10mm maximum.

So I assume if Im to use all of them 10mm tubes, except the one from the block to the pump intlet, which will be a 1/2"ID, isnt this the best setup for my case? But then another problem raised, the outlet of the pump will have to reduced to 10mm! I dont even know where I could find that kind of "big change" fitting.

Well I admit that its bcos of the look of the reservoir, I really dont wanna drop it, and also the rad, its a 3x120mm i wanna buy, also 10mm barbed.

I really have to make a decision now, cos I have pretty much everything sitting right here ,only waiting for the watersetup now.

starck

bigben2k · 02-13-2003, 10:39 AM

You'll loose some flow by using reducers, but it's better than loosing pressure to small tubing.

I don't know the availability of such parts in Hong Kong. If you were in the USA, I'd point you to a local hardware store, but they usually carry fittings in 1/4" increments, not 1/8. Otherwise, I'd point you towards www.mcmaster.com .

If looks are more important than functionality, then I can't help you!

starck · 02-13-2003, 10:50 AM

darn, thats my dilemma

I'd like to have both the look and functionality, but since I'm only running 2 pelts, with a 3x120mm rad, Im guessing that'll be enough? Also, the weather is hot here, I wont be getting very water temp anyways, as long as I can keep the pelts cool enough, then there are room for going for looks

I dont mind ordering online, in fact most of my stuff were ordered online, all over the world, I even ordered a Prometeia from the States

Anyways, enough bull, so I think with this case, I should go for 10mm all of them, and then 1/2" from block to pump?
Still have to think about the reducing 1/2" to 10mm.....

Anyhow, thanks again bigben!!

starck

starck · 02-13-2003, 10:52 AM

btw, what about using a reducer with a balance pipe like y-connectors? is this gonna reduce the flow loss?
thanks!
starck

bigben2k · 02-13-2003, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by starck
btw, what about using a reducer with a balance pipe like y-connectors? is this gonna reduce the flow loss?
thanks!
starck

???

starck · 02-13-2003, 11:20 AM

I read about that from some sites, forgotten where but I have it cut and pasted into my preparation notes.
I'm not really sure about this though

Here's the original version :
"I have yet heard is to sleeve the 10mm barb fittings (or use a reducer) and connect a balance pipe (by means of T-pieces or Y-connectors) to counteract any flow restriction induced by this"

Maybe I should do it like this,

pump outlet-->largest possible tube--->reducer--->10mm tube--->res.--->10mm tube--->rad--->10mm tube--->reducer--->1/2"ID--->pelt block--->1/2" ID--->pelt block 2--->largest possible tube--->pump inlet.

hows this sound?

Thanks a lot!!

starck

bigben2k · 02-13-2003, 12:02 PM

If it's what I think it is... it involves adding a tee in the tubing to the pump inlet, in order to add a fill tube: it may have the additional benefit of fixing the inlet pressure issue, but I haven't studied it enough to say wether or not it would actually work.

Off hand, it looks good.

starck · 02-13-2003, 12:12 PM

Ok I have made up my mind and decided to go for the reducer thingy.

It'll be like,

pump outlet
-->largest possible tube
--->reducer
--->10mm tube
--->res.
--->10mm tube
--->rad
--->10mm tube
--->reducer
--->1/2"ID
--->pelt block
--->1/2" ID
--->pelt block 2
--->largest possible tube
--->pump inlet.

My last concern is, are those reducers able to handle such high PSI? I'm sure I'll put clamps and teflon tapes, but still.......

Once again thank you for your help!!

starck

bigben2k · 02-13-2003, 12:28 PM

Hose clamps and teflon tape should do: the pressures involved are relatively small.

Loctite thread lock/sealer is a good alternative to teflon.

starck · 02-13-2003, 12:33 PM

I'll check out the loctite thread lock for sure.
I'll order the parts now, will also order a pressure meter and I'll post back with results.

Thank you BigBen2k

bigben2k · 02-13-2003, 12:37 PM

Excellent!

Report your results!

8-Ball · 02-13-2003, 01:43 PM

Ben, I think what he might have been getting at with the balance pipe, is using a y fitting to divert some of the flow round the block, maintaing good flow through the loop despite the restriction of the small barbs. However, due to the components with the small barbs being the rad and res, I don't think this would work.

It is possible that the guy who starck copied that from meant this and it has been misinterpreted by all parties.

Who knows.

I also agree that a reducer down to 10mm barbs will offer less resistance than10mm tubing all round.

8-ball

bigben2k · 02-13-2003, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 8-Ball
Ben, I think what he might have been getting at with the balance pipe, is using a y fitting to divert some of the flow round the block, maintaing good flow through the loop despite the restriction of the small barbs. However, due to the components with the small barbs being the rad and res, I don't think this would work.

If it's a bypass to the block, that would be a no no.

If he was talking about splitting 3/8 tubing connections with Y's, so that he could reduce the pressure drop, yeah, but that's an unusual idea... Replacing the fittings to fit 1/2 tubing would be more cost efficient, no?

Besides, 2 1/4 ID tubes won't make up for a 1/2" tube: you'd need at least three.

Either way, as long as he's got 1/2 tubing to the pump, it should work OK. Personally, I would concentrate on getting 1/2 everywhere, because the heatload here can be high.

Airspirit and I have just been over a similar setup
here.

starck · 02-13-2003, 02:34 PM

I think I'll give it a shot, I'll get extra tubes and test with different setups. It's bout' time for me to do some real life testings, and I really hope I can find a balance point between the look and functionality. Thats why I'm ordering a 3x120mm rad

Logically guessing, since the MD20rz has a pretty high pressure rating, as long as the reduced tube connectors are not leaking, I think there should be enough flow in between them, I'm afraid it might be too fast running through the big rad.

Anyhow, extremely apprecaite for all your helping hands, I should have came to this forum earlier

two thumbs up

plus my two toes up, errr no pic.

Pug · 03-08-2003, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by starck
I read about that from some sites, forgotten where but I have it cut and pasted into my preparation notes.
I'm not really sure about this though
Here's the original version :
"I have yet heard is to sleeve the 10mm barb fittings (or use a reducer) and connect a balance pipe (by means of T-pieces or Y-connectors) to counteract any flow restriction induced by this"

Wow! I wrote that... but it's been taken out of context a little.

To lay down the background, I run Wizard Designs - I sell Aqua Computer gear to the US & UK.
One of the questions I get asked the most is how to use the Aquatube reservoir (which only has 1/8 BSPP threads) with a 1/2" system.

This was part of an answer to someone via email to this problem.
The original inquirer sent me this interpretation.
but what I was trying to convey was a little more like this
(although I have since found slightly better thread converters to address the issue).

I wouldn't suggest the use of a pipe to bypass the block!
(unless, of course, it's to supply a second one... )

02-13-2003, 07:08 AM	#3
Volenti Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: in a nice cool spot Posts: 427	with a system like you have in mind (mostly 3/8'' or smaller tubing) I can garantee that , at the end fo the day, the iwaki will have a higher in system flowrate. I own an iwaki MD-20RZ, and have done a lot of DIY exprimenting with pumps (just do a search for my name on the forums) __________________ feel free to icq/msn me, I'm always willing to toss around ideas.

02-13-2003, 08:58 AM	#7
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	The issue here is: how much pressure are you willing to loose to tubing restrictions? Use Darcy, and calculate the pressure drop. Alternatively, as a guide, you want to keep the flow speed under 5 feet per second (apply a little math). If you reduce the pressure drop through the tubes, you'll have more pressure available to the components (block, rad), and you'll end up with a higher flow rate. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

02-13-2003, 10:15 AM	#9
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	You could stick with 3/8 tubing, but I wouldn't: it'd be too big of a pressure drop. Of course this doesn't mean that you'll get much better temperatures. In your case, you need to do a couple of things: #1: use a big ID hose for the pump inlet. Everything else can stay the same. To simplify your setup, you can put the res after the blocks, and before the pump: it should minimize the amount of modification you'll have to do (Use 1/2 tubing only from the res to the pump). #2 if you decide to drop the 3/8 tubing, it would be easier for you to replace the fittings on the blocks, to something that can accept say, 1/2 ID tubing. Personally, I prefer polypropylene (or nylon) barbs, with hose clamps (brass is also easy to find). This of course is completely up to you. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

02-13-2003, 10:39 AM	#11
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	You'll loose some flow by using reducers, but it's better than loosing pressure to small tubing. I don't know the availability of such parts in Hong Kong. If you were in the USA, I'd point you to a local hardware store, but they usually carry fittings in 1/4" increments, not 1/8. Otherwise, I'd point you towards www.mcmaster.com . If looks are more important than functionality, then I can't help you! __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

02-13-2003, 12:28 PM	#18
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Hose clamps and teflon tape should do: the pressures involved are relatively small. Loctite thread lock/sealer is a good alternative to teflon. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

02-13-2003, 05:24 AM	#1
starck Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: HKG Posts: 12	High pressure pump with small ID tubes? Greetings, I'm new here hello everyone I am about to order the Iwaki MD20rz, its featuring a 210GPH @ 0ft head and a Max head of 24ft. I am worried about the low flow, even it has a 24ft max head, but comparing to the Eheim 1250, the MD20rz is like half the flow. I'll be using 3/8" ID tubes, or even a smaller 8mm ID tubes, is it a bit too small to use with the MD20rz? The entire setup consists of two Swiftech MCW50-T, a radiator and a reservoir, probably two more hdd cooler. Shall I go for bigger tube ID? I prefer 8mm or 10mm bcos I'll be using some German made parts, the largest they're offering is 10mm. Am I loosing performance with small tubes? Thanks for yer help, appreciate it starck

02-13-2003, 05:57 AM	#2
8-Ball Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Oxford University, UK Posts: 452	It might put a lot of strain on the pump, though you will still get high flow rates. I might be possible to setup parallel loops with just the one pump. 8-ball

02-13-2003, 07:31 AM	#5
starck Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: HKG Posts: 12	Thanks for the replies I'll do a search and see your results. Quick questions, am I loosing performance with smaller tubes? I liked the quick connect thing, lesser chance to leak, but theyre 6mm ID, or I can go with 10mm barbed, I'll need a lot of clamps and since the pump has pretty high pressure, Im afraid chances of leaking will increase. Btw I'll be using a 2x120mm rad or a 3x120mm rad to cool the 2 80w pelts. starck

02-13-2003, 09:38 AM	#8
starck Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: HKG Posts: 12	Thanks again for all the input I've read about better not restricting the inlet of the pump, but then Im getting more confused about my setup. I kinda prefer going for 1/2" ID tubes, but then again bcos I'll be using some Innovatek and Aqua-computer's parts, their fittings are like 6mm quick connect or a maximum of 10mm barbed. Maybe I shouldnt get a the MD20rz? Sorry for my ignorance, the setup Im running now is a Koolance, this is actually my first self built WC system I have already bought the MCW50-T, two of them, for the GPU and the NB, and the block is able to take smallest 3/8"OD QC, or 1/2"ID tubes, pretty flexible, but the problem goes to the Rad, with G1/4" thread, and the reservoir, 1/8" thread. So, shall I run my system like this : Or shall I simply run everything with their default 6mm ID tubes Thanks a lot! You guys are really helpful Ive already learned a lot by reading out the posts. starck

02-13-2003, 10:28 AM	#10
starck Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: HKG Posts: 12	Thanks bigben! The reason why I put the res and rad together, they are made with German fittings, which could be converted to a maximum of 10mm barbed fitting, is it a good idea to use a reducer from 1/2"ID reducing it to 10mm? I mean am I loosing a lot of flow here? The blocks can handle anything from 3/8"OD to 1/2"ID, in fact I already have the fittings for 3/8"OD or 1/2"ID. But only the blocks, the rad and the res can go up to 10mm maximum. So I assume if Im to use all of them 10mm tubes, except the one from the block to the pump intlet, which will be a 1/2"ID, isnt this the best setup for my case? But then another problem raised, the outlet of the pump will have to reduced to 10mm! I dont even know where I could find that kind of "big change" fitting. Well I admit that its bcos of the look of the reservoir, I really dont wanna drop it, and also the rad, its a 3x120mm i wanna buy, also 10mm barbed. I really have to make a decision now, cos I have pretty much everything sitting right here ,only waiting for the watersetup now. starck

02-13-2003, 10:50 AM	#12
starck Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: HKG Posts: 12	darn, thats my dilemma I'd like to have both the look and functionality, but since I'm only running 2 pelts, with a 3x120mm rad, Im guessing that'll be enough? Also, the weather is hot here, I wont be getting very water temp anyways, as long as I can keep the pelts cool enough, then there are room for going for looks I dont mind ordering online, in fact most of my stuff were ordered online, all over the world, I even ordered a Prometeia from the States Anyways, enough bull, so I think with this case, I should go for 10mm all of them, and then 1/2" from block to pump? Still have to think about the reducing 1/2" to 10mm..... Anyhow, thanks again bigben!! starck

02-13-2003, 10:52 AM	#13
starck Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: HKG Posts: 12	btw, what about using a reducer with a balance pipe like y-connectors? is this gonna reduce the flow loss? thanks! starck

02-13-2003, 11:20 AM	#15
starck Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: HKG Posts: 12	I read about that from some sites, forgotten where but I have it cut and pasted into my preparation notes. I'm not really sure about this though Here's the original version : "I have yet heard is to sleeve the 10mm barb fittings (or use a reducer) and connect a balance pipe (by means of T-pieces or Y-connectors) to counteract any flow restriction induced by this" Maybe I should do it like this, pump outlet-->largest possible tube--->reducer--->10mm tube--->res.--->10mm tube--->rad--->10mm tube--->reducer--->1/2"ID--->pelt block--->1/2" ID--->pelt block 2--->largest possible tube--->pump inlet. hows this sound? Thanks a lot!! starck

02-13-2003, 12:12 PM	#17
starck Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: HKG Posts: 12	Ok I have made up my mind and decided to go for the reducer thingy. It'll be like, pump outlet -->largest possible tube --->reducer --->10mm tube --->res. --->10mm tube --->rad --->10mm tube --->reducer --->1/2"ID --->pelt block --->1/2" ID --->pelt block 2 --->largest possible tube --->pump inlet. My last concern is, are those reducers able to handle such high PSI? I'm sure I'll put clamps and teflon tapes, but still....... Once again thank you for your help!! starck

02-13-2003, 12:33 PM	#19
starck Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: HKG Posts: 12	I'll check out the loctite thread lock for sure. I'll order the parts now, will also order a pressure meter and I'll post back with results. Thank you BigBen2k

02-13-2003, 12:37 PM	#20
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Excellent! Report your results! __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

02-13-2003, 01:43 PM	#21
8-Ball Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Oxford University, UK Posts: 452	Ben, I think what he might have been getting at with the balance pipe, is using a y fitting to divert some of the flow round the block, maintaing good flow through the loop despite the restriction of the small barbs. However, due to the components with the small barbs being the rad and res, I don't think this would work. It is possible that the guy who starck copied that from meant this and it has been misinterpreted by all parties. Who knows. I also agree that a reducer down to 10mm barbs will offer less resistance than10mm tubing all round. 8-ball

02-13-2003, 02:34 PM	#23
starck Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: HKG Posts: 12	I think I'll give it a shot, I'll get extra tubes and test with different setups. It's bout' time for me to do some real life testings, and I really hope I can find a balance point between the look and functionality. Thats why I'm ordering a 3x120mm rad Logically guessing, since the MD20rz has a pretty high pressure rating, as long as the reduced tube connectors are not leaking, I think there should be enough flow in between them, I'm afraid it might be too fast running through the big rad. Anyhow, extremely apprecaite for all your helping hands, I should have came to this forum earlier two thumbs up plus my two toes up, errr no pic.

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