F2 Extreme Radiators for Extreme watercooling

[nikhsub1]

Originally posted by copyman
Did anybody with p4 make that same migration of the lrww for the cascade? could it happen your impressions on the change?
thank you very much friends

Yes. I have both the cascade and the WW and use a P4. I have seen no difference between either block in terms of temps, seems identical. I think, if one were using an AMD CPU, the small difference may be detected, but it seems not on my P4 anyway.

[Cathar]

Originally posted by copyman
Did anybody with p4 make that same migration of the lrww for the cascade? could it happen your impressions on the change?

As Scott mentioned above, he saw no reported difference for P4's.

Two other P4 users have contacted me via email. One said he saw around a 1C difference between the White Water and the Cascade, and the other a 2C difference.

This hardly suprises me though when it comes to P4's. I've had one person say they saw no reported difference between a Maze 3 and a White Water as well, and then I've had people tell me they saw a 7C difference.

AMD system's temperature differences always seem to correlate pretty well based on CPU type/speed/voltage, but for P4's there appears to be a significant proportion of "stubborn" CPU's when it comes to temperature reporting, and I know this is something that has been noticed by water block designers other than myself.

[copyman]

Originally posted by nikhsub1
Yes. I have both the cascade and the WW and use a P4. I have seen no difference between either block in terms of temps, seems identical. I think, if one were using an AMD CPU, the small difference may be detected, but it seems not on my P4 anyway.

that good to know of that, i had a light advantage for the lrww, but I have result better in the p4 using shin-etsu, it believed that they would be very similar or same, the blocks of the cathar give a new dimension to the wc system, because before him, it was very hard to get to extract the heat of the processors and to review to the fluid.

The lrww and the cascade are true monsters sucking heat, it remains we learn the best more use them.

I should place other in the amd soon, has more 3 here

[copyman]

Originally posted by Cathar
As Scott mentioned above, he saw no reported difference.

Two other users have contacted me via email. One said he saw around a 1C difference between the White Water and the Cascade, and the other a 2C difference.

This hardly suprises me though when it comes to P4's. I've had one person say they saw no reported difference between a Maze 3 and a White Water as well, and then I've had people tell me they saw a 7C difference.

AMD system's temperature differences always seem to correlate pretty well based on CPU type/speed/voltage, but for P4's there appears to be a significant proportion of "stubborn" CPU's when it comes to temperature reporting, and I know this is something that has been noticed by water block designers other than myself.

I understand cathar perfectly, the p4 are hard to extract temperature measures, I test many processors in my wc, and I can assure that I never had the luck of having measured of similar temperatures, I don't get to do small it adjusts them in the rads and in my system in general in the p4, I have that make them in the amd where the temperature measurement is something more solid.

now as or maze 3 compared with the lrww, for god's love, I like den a lot, wonderful person, but the blocks of cpu of him are of the time of doing overclock in p3, 7 degrees of difference dissipating little heat in the processor, I with a rev3 compared to him, in an amd xp1600+ @ 2047mhz 2,3v palomino, to 1900mhz 2.0v had more than 10c with the maze3, breaking above that, while the rev3 took me to 2047 mhz , logical, that depends on the rest of the system...

I wonder if it would not be possible in the cascate or lrww, you optimize them a little more to the format incapsulated of the die p4, increasing the efective thermal change area of them

I believe that the differences of block change should be larger depending on the effectiveness of the remaining of the system, perhaps the cascade provides better temperatures in more cheaper systems, and that is something extremely desirable.

congratulations for the work, I loved the cascade

[Cathar]

Originally posted by copyman
I wonder if it would not be possible in the cascate or lrww, you optimize them a little more to the format incapsulated of the die p4, increasing the efective thermal change area of them

To optimise more for the P4's will result in less performance for bare-die CPU's.

I figured it like this. All the really hard-core P4 overclocker's pop the heat-spreader off the P4 anyway, which essentially turns a P4 into a bare-die CPU again.

I guess it's just a matter of targetting what matters most when it comes to balancing performance across a range of applications. There is a slight preferential focus to bare-die CPU's, but I was careful to ensure that for IHS-based CPU's the Cascade also gives very good performance.

The IHS really is a cooling obstacle. I can work with it slightly better (maybe 1C), but to the detriment of bare-die cooling performance, and doing so will also increase the cost of the waterblock as there will be extra machining time.

[Blackeagle]

One thing I found of interest was the flow rate differance between the Cascade and the White Water in Copyman's testing.

The White Water showed almost 1/2 again more flow over the Cascade, or the Cascade was 1/3 more restrictive depending on how you look at the numbers.

This could make a noticable differance to systems with more than one block in series. For those systems the White Water would seem to be ahead of the Cascade.

One possible reason for the large differance, blockage of the tiny jets of the Cascade. Copyman, did you check your Cascade very carefully to make sure none of the jets are pluged? Even a few blocked jets would eleminated the Cascade's performance advantge and would also lower flow noticably.

[Schwartz]

Sorry to backtrack...

Actually the blower is pretty quiet for the air-flow/pressure it's generating. At the second lowest speed setting it's pushing about as much air through my radiators as 2 x 104CFM Panaflo H1A fans did at full speed, and I can barely hear the blower at all. The 8cm medium speed case fan I have blowing air over the CPU area is the dominating noise in my setup, at least until the CD drive spins up and that is far louder than anything else.

Cathar, I'm very interested in how quiet your blower is... I'm going to go WC but I'm having great difficulty choosing the Rad/fan combo. I don't really have space restrictions as the Rad/Pump/Res will be out of the case. I was originally looking for a heater core about the size of 2x120mm fans.

My real objective is to keep the noise low, so I assumed two slower 120mm fans would be pretty quiet. If your blower is quiet I would consider moving to a smaller core and raising the airflow (by looking at all of the specs shown here, raising airflow has a much bigger impact than everything else including water flow).

I'm curious if the noise from the blower is motor or air noise? If it's the motor, I'm guessing it could be damped further by enclosure?

Unfortunately, I also can't decide on the heater core since there is very little data on air flow capacity posted anywhere...

[bigben2k]

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=7314

I'm hoping to get an automotive blower (running quietly at 5 volt), but a motorized impeller would be ideal.

You can silence the motor, but the air flow noise, you'd have to fix by adding some kind of turbulators, something to disrupt the airflow. If that doesn't work, you'll have to try another airflow rate: the whistling noise either comes from the air hitting the core, or from within the core.

For some airflow data, check out Bill's radiator roundup on overclockers.

[Schwartz]

Yes, I've read through Bill's posts extensively, which is why I want a rad with low static back pressure . As far as I can tell, he only has results for the 2 unnamed heater cores in the batch.

Unfortunately, that doesn't help me when I select my RAD of preference based on size.

[copyman]

my first blower




but ugly camera

[copyman]

Originally posted by Blackeagle
One thing I found of interest was the flow rate differance between the Cascade and the White Water in Copyman's testing.

The White Water showed almost 1/2 again more flow over the Cascade, or the Cascade was 1/3 more restrictive depending on how you look at the numbers.

This could make a noticable differance to systems with more than one block in series. For those systems the White Water would seem to be ahead of the Cascade.

One possible reason for the large differance, blockage of the tiny jets of the Cascade. Copyman, did you check your Cascade very carefully to make sure none of the jets are pluged? Even a few blocked jets would eleminated the Cascade's performance advantge and would also lower flow noticably.

yes I disassembled it several times, if you render attention I make an alert one on that problem of blockage of the injectors, after the tests when I raised my rig and I dismounted the cascade again and there was not any obstructed pin


The data are totally with the two block's clean

[]'s

[Cathar]

Originally posted by Blackeagle
One thing I found of interest was the flow rate differance between the Cascade and the White Water in Copyman's testing.

The White Water showed almost 1/2 again more flow over the Cascade, or the Cascade was 1/3 more restrictive depending on how you look at the numbers.

This could make a noticable differance to systems with more than one block in series. For those systems the White Water would seem to be ahead of the Cascade.

I'm not sure for the reason of the difference that copyman is seeing.

In my system I have 2 heater-cores in series, a sponge filter, two sweeped elbows, and about 4m of 1/2" ID tubing.

With the Iwaki MD-30RZ in my system the difference is 10.5-11.0lpm with the White Water and 10.0lpm with the Cascade.

With the Eheim 1250 I see 6.0lpm with the White Water, and 5.5lpm with the Cascade.

I'm using a regular Cascade as it would ship to people. No difference whatsoever.

The earlier Cascade prototypes had less tubes and larger jets, and were less restrictive than the White Water. With the shipping block that has changed slightly, but I kept a careful eye on the flow rate resistance so that this would not be an issue.

[Cathar]

Originally posted by Schwartz
Cathar, I'm very interested in how quiet your blower is... I'm going to go WC but I'm having great difficulty choosing the Rad/fan combo. I don't really have space restrictions as the Rad/Pump/Res will be out of the case. I was originally looking for a heater core about the size of 2x120mm fans.


I'm curious if the noise from the blower is motor or air noise? If it's the motor, I'm guessing it could be damped further by enclosure?

Unfortunately, I also can't decide on the heater core since there is very little data on air flow capacity posted anywhere...

My blower is quite large. 33x15x15cm in size. It looks much like Copyman's above.




It's installed in a large radiator box that helps to muffle the sound of it. The blower pretty much makes two noise types, that being the rushing air and the brushes in the DC motor. Incidentally the brushes are about 1/2" long rectangular blocks that are spring loaded. As they wear away the springs just keep pushing the brushes down. It'd take a long time for the brushes to wear away completely. I had to pull the blower apart and clean the brushes and contacts as the blower had been sitting on a shelf for 5 years and the oxidation of the copper over that time had left a thick black coating over the contacts such that the brushes were barely making any electrical contact. The noise of the brushes is a medium pitched low volume "whirring" sound, which gets completely muffled by the radiator box. The box however does amplify the inherent vibration of the blower and there is a very low pitched drone which changes in volume depending on the resonating pitch with the box's natural vibration frequency. Changing the voltage supplied to the fan by even a tiny amount is enough to almost totally nullify the effect of that noise.

The radiator box looks like this:



Except the back panel with the axial fans has been replaced by the blower. The blower takes up almost half of the back panel's area by itself.

I power the blower with a DC PSU which I can set to whatever voltage I choose, and it also allows me to keep an eye on its power draw. I typically have it set to draw about 25W, although I can put the blower to full speed (16V on my PSU) at which time it'll draw close to 250W of power and push around 750CFM of air-flow (in free-air rated mode). At the standard rated 13.6v it's rated for 650CFM of free-air flow. At the 25W setting I'd estimate it's pushing around a real 100CFM through the heater-cores, although I don't have anything to measure that with.

[Schwartz]

WOW, that's great. Interesting though, I assume with the blowers, the air going through the RADS is created by the suction in the box since I assume the blowers blow out the holes.

It looks like a car blower, but the voltages seem a bit off...

Another quick question... Why two heater cores instead of one double sized one? BTW, Which ones are those?

[copyman]

Originally posted by Cathar
I'm not sure for the reason of the difference that copyman is seeing.

In my system I have 2 heater-cores in series, a sponge filter, two sweeped elbows, and about 4m of 1/2" ID tubing.

With the Iwaki MD-30RZ in my system the difference is 10.5-11.0lpm with the White Water and 10.0lpm with the Cascade.

With the Eheim 1250 I see 6.0lpm with the White Water, and 5.5lpm with the Cascade.

I'm using a regular Cascade as it would ship to people. No difference whatsoever.

The earlier Cascade prototypes had less tubes and larger jets, and were less restrictive than the White Water. With the shipping block that has changed slightly, but I kept a careful eye on the flow rate resistance so that this would not be an issue.

Interesting cathar, will take advantage of that will test other bomb of 1200gph 19 " shut off in the weekend and I will measure again, I still have here 3 cascades to play.

It is possible that it was obstructed in the test, but it was not more or final because I checked before

I am sad for not having to who to send my rads and your block cascade to evaluate at a laboratory that can supply necessary data.

I am with a ready complete group, rad, bomb, lrww, cascade and tubes for sending.

but for who?

bill doesn't execute more the tests, joe not this ready one executes it them, I am the wait so that my equipment can be tested in a complete kit with the cascade and lrww, and only the rad.

what sent for you it doesn't have that purpose, just for you to see if it likes... F2 Extreme it should take two weeks to arrive for you

As soon as possible I will send the models dual fan if you want

[]'s

[copyman]

I would like to explain something, I send a rad for the cathar without his purpose to post or to test for the public, but for him to test for an interest peculiar of him, he doesn't have any commitment with me of publishing any data on the rad, that will depend on your will

I am trying to send for Joe a rad it is still a complete kit with the cascade, but he informed not to be ready for test them on that moment, I am awaiting

[Cathar]

Originally posted by Schwartz
WOW, that's great. Interesting though, I assume with the blowers, the air going through the RADS is created by the suction in the box since I assume the blowers blow out the holes.

It looks like a car blower, but the voltages seem a bit off...

Another quick question... Why two heater cores instead of one double sized one? BTW, Which ones are those?

It is a car heater-core blower. Cars run at ~13-14V or so, but everything gets rated as "12V".

Those are fairly large heater-cores (22cmx14cm fin area). They don't really come much bigger unless you're talking about truck heater-cores.

I was making up painted radiators and shroud for a while, and had one for myself already, but also just happened to have an extra heater-core sitting around so decided to throw it into the box rather than buy a larger radiator, for which there is a Morris Minor car radiator that measures around 26x26cm in fin area.

[nicozeg]

Originally posted by copyman


I am trying to send for Joe a rad it is still a complete kit with the cascade, but he informed not to be ready for test them on that moment, I am awaiting

Are you talking about Joe Citarella? Maybe he can't test it in the same way as Bill, but you could ask him to test the kit in his standard die simulator, where he has a lot of kits tested in the same conditions.

[copyman]

Originally posted by nicozeg
Are you talking about Joe Citarella? Maybe he can't test it in the same way as Bill, but you could ask him to test the kit in his standard die simulator, where he has a lot of kits tested in the same conditions.

I sent message again to Joe wondering he can already test the kit, he told me in the last contact that could test the kit, but it was in trip and it would return in 2 weeks, but the bill spoke to me that still lack some equipments so that Joe can make the tests.

I will wait for answer of Joe again, I will ask on the cpu die simulator standart....

thank you very much

[Nuson]

Originally posted by j813
Being in Brazil & all wat's your ambient temp in ur computer room?
Here in Asia in summer my room can get hot as 32celcius.

Thanks

asia is a pretty big place there j. You probably don't mean the whole place is 32 deg... CHINESE pride right here !

[copyman]

Originally posted by Nuson
asia is a pretty big place there j. You probably don't mean the whole place is 32 deg... CHINESE pride right here !

Good here in the south of Brazil, now it is winter and the temperature measured it is of 22c 26c , in the summer it measured it is her of 30 35c, but here it is cold, more or north has temperatures in the summer of 40 45c and in the winter they don't lower of 30c

To another area to northeast that the temperature during the whole year is above 40c

[]'s

[j813]

Originally posted by Nuson
asia is a pretty big place there j. You probably don't mean the whole place is 32 deg... CHINESE pride right here !

Obviously I'm not saying the whole Asia, ya I should hav said someparts of Asia. Wat I'm really interested is if it where used in this ambient temp 32c-40c.
Do u mean even in summer someparts of China doesn't reach 32c? :shrug:

[copyman]

Originally posted by j813
Obviously I'm not saying the whole Asia, ya I should hav said someparts of Asia. Wat I'm really interested is if it where used in this ambient temp 32c-40c.
Do u mean even in summer someparts of China doesn't reach 32c? :shrug:

Yes, it can be used and it is used at my country with temperatures above 30c, but logical that the more high the temperature of room more high the temperature of the processor

thank's

Ivo

[copyman]

Some pictures of the pump that I use in my system and of Blower that the cathar encouraged me to test, cathar the more I observe the blower more evil thoughts I have, it is really impressive the flow and pressure that that thing generates.




quietone = ceramic axis with lubrication and refrigeration done for distilled water that it is conditioned in a stamped compartment containing the impeler.