newly released, amd 64/fx-51

[phill9700]

what does everyone think about it? anyone getting one or are they waiting?
had some great reviews about it all, just wondering what some of the other experts thought!
thanks for your time!
phill

[airspirit]

Kick ass. While the mini-64 chips don't trip my trigger, the Opterons ... oh, wait, FX chips are the shiznit. If you have the money to spend, you'll enjoy your purchase immensely, especially when you get the speed boost from installing XP64 later this winter along with a steady stream of replacements for your other apps.

[superart]

I would wait for the new Athlon64FX chips to come out early 2004. They will change the pin setup and add support for unbuffered memory. The current FX chips will be phased out verry early next near. If your gunna drop that much cash, wait a couple months

[phill9700]

Originally posted by superart
I would wait for the new Athlon64FX chips to come out early 2004. They will change the pin setup and add support for unbuffered memory. The current FX chips will be phased out verry early next near. If your gunna drop that much cash, wait a couple months

why on earth would they do that for? seems a little silly to me, why not just release it like that in the first place?
does that therefore mean that the newer fx chips will become faster and have this new form factor for the boards (btx is it???) and pci-x support? cos i did want to upgrade (the rig im using is in my sig below) but really am not sure what to get.. altho having the money would be nice first i guess.. but with the new amd 64bit cpus, god they make me they are rather nice and over at pcstats they had one doing 20k plus (3dmark 2001se) on a standard run with a 9800 pro, that was with a athlon 64 3200+ i believe as well (which is slower than the fx line isnt it?)
thanks for the input guys most helpfull

[Zhentar]

Unfortunatly these are considerably more expensive than Athlon XPs, but they do hold their own performance wise. If they can get 64 bit software out fast enough, they could gain a considerable edge over P4s. I wouldn't buy a Athlon64 before the 90 nanometer process minimum.. but then again I'm an unemployed college student, I wouldn't buy anything over $50 unless absolutely neccesary... (I'm going to be crying while I order a YY-0221 next month)

I think the whole point of the 939 pin set up is so you can't bridge a jumper and turn an FX into an Opteron.

[airspirit]

The next year is going to be a mess. The 940 pin FX chips will be made and updated through the end of next year (they are rebadged 1xx opterons, btw). The 939 pin FX chips will be introduced in Q1-Q2 2004 (though I wouldn't hold my breath since they have yet to make any 90 nm chips at all) with DDR-II support and will be made on PCI-Express boards most likely (Q3-Q4), while PCI-Express cards will be a rare breed until around Q4. If you want to try to sort it out in the middle you can be my guest. DDR-II will NOT be a big improvement over the DDR-I now, and they are now manufacturing CAS2 registered ECC PC3200 (Corsair XMS) which will help the current Opterathlons immensely. When it comes time to upgrade in a year or so, you can always drop an Opteron on your board as a replacement if you are using a current FX.

My suggestion would be to bite on an FX chip in December when the yeilds and process is better (for overclocking) and the price is lower. Since you won't have PCI-Express, you can still use your AGP cards and you should have registered PC3200 memory at near unregistered prices. You will still pay a premium, but you will get good bang for your buck. I would not count on the 90nm chips coming out soon.

[phill9700]

it all seems like a catch 22 problem.. if you wait till then this will happen etc.. its all a little bit of a mess isnt it?
well according to superart, they are changing over the standard ddr memory next year, which is a good thing right? at least i will have to be waiting till next year before i can even start looking, but i was considering to wait till my credit cards are all paid off and to be honest, i think thats a better bet to do it that way than just try and buy the odd bits here and there.. i would prefer to wait and see whats happening with this pci-x stuff.. does anyone know what improvements its going to have over agp?

[Zhentar]

A couple extra interesting notes- First, I just read that, unlike the 64s, the FX ship with an unlocked multiplier.

The other thing is that once we get 64-bit games (which will certainly be the first things ported) the Athlons should be very impressive performers, since they already fare quite well against the P4 EE in 32 bit.

[phill9700]

well either way, the longer i stay out of not buying things i guess the more money i will have to spend on a new rig! i just dont know when to even think about trying to sort something out about one.. im all confused and i just dont want to make a mistake and have to buy things twice.. that would really annoy me..

[airspirit]

DDR-I memory is good with these 64 bit chips. The high end ones (read: FX and Opteron) have 128 bit wide memory buses that allow them a massive pipeline between the onboard memory controller and the memory. DDR-I has low latencies, where the lowest latency DDR-II can have is 3 cycles (CAS 3). They are expecting that you will need at least around DDR-II 666+ in order to overcome the latency slowdown. I wouldn't worry about that, especially since DDR-II will be prohibitively expensive until around Q1 2005.

As for PCI-Express and AGP, AGP cards will be made until around Q2 2005. Nothing is going to force you to change there, especially since there won't be a large performance increase (think AGP 4x->8x benefit). You will lose nothing to invest in the AGP platform now, especially since many boards will also have PCI-X for any cards necessitating it.

Those are going to be the two improvements above and beyond the standard speed increases. It IS true that FX and Opteron chips have unlocked multipliers, and there is a NF3 BIOS that is being passed around that allows you to change them. This may or may not change with the next generation chips. You will not be bad off to buy today. Further, there will be nothing that will necessitate a hardware change in the near future if you do so.

If it makes you feel better about it, I'm going to try to put together a dual opteron NForce3 250 setup here within the next two months.

[utabintarbo]

Originally posted by airspirit
...

If it makes you feel better about it, I'm going to try to put together a dual opteron NForce3 250 setup here within the next two months.

Must be nice!

btw, happy birthday (didn't know anybody could get so crusty in such a short time! ).

Bob

[gone_fishin]

Getting the opteron now would be a HUGE investment considering you would have to buy the chip at +$700 (the good one not the crippled one), registered ddr memory and a motherboard. Hell, I think I spent $700 for my total system last time I upgraded (w/case, powersupply, pci cards, hd's blah blah blah).
How can this be considered mainstream at the prices and there is virtually no software support, maybe in a couple years there will be. Would be usefull to someone running a huge server with 64bit Apache but not as a gamer or websurfer now.

Aces hardware has a good comparison article up of the different FX's and the P4EE.
http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=60000253

[superart]

There's nothing wrong with investing in a 64bit platform today, believe me, if I had unlimited resources I would do it in a heartbeat. However, The Athlon64 platform that is available today will not be compatible with the athlon64 platform of early next year. The pin layout will change. If you get Athlon64 today, you wont be able to upgrade later. You will have to either buy a new mobo/cpu or upgrade to a duron. Like I said, theres nothing wrong with going for it now, but if money is a factor that you must consider, you will be better off waiting a couple months. I mean It's not that long of a wait. I am mostly getting this from the anandtech article posted yesterday. You guys should check it out.

As for me, I recently dropped 2 grand on a brand new setup (athlonXP2400, Epox 8rda+, 256MBddr, Radeon9700pro) to replace my previous system (P150 massively overclocked to 166, Voodoo3 3000, 256MB SIMM). The next time I get a new rig will probably be when DOOM/HalfLife2 come out, so like somewhere around Q4 2010 - Q1 2015.

phill9700,
I doubt AMD will steer in the direction of BTX, since AMD more-or-less targets the enthusiast market, whereas BTX is more-or-less meant for the "gramma's e-mail checking box" market.
Mainly, AMD wanted to do the new pin layout from the start, but just didn't have time. So they just basically rebadged the opteron, with a couple improvements, and called it the FX, what they plan to do early next year is what they initially wanted to do now, but didn't have time. Check out that anand article, he talks about that and explains it better than I can.

[phill9700]

well i think i might be tempted to be waiting till next year when the fx line of cpus are coming out with the non buffered ddr as this will save a huge amount on the memory side of things, at least that way i wont have to spend more than i have to with the memory side of things already being rather expensive..
i just cant wait to be having my hands on one of these superb cpu's.. i wonder how good the new intel models are going to be?

[airspirit]

Wrong wrong wrong (except for the crusty comment ... I prefer salty, though ... sailor thing).

The 940 is pin compatible with the opteron, and 940 pin FX chips will be manufactured through Q4 next year, at which point you can still press later opterons into your socket. The upgrade potential will remain, though not via the mainstream chips.

As for putting that machine together, I will definitely have assistance from providence on that one. Things are just coming together right ... or may, since I will get confimation on the project within the week.

[airspirit]

Let me comment further on the availability of 90nm chips:

http://www.amdzone.com/forums/messag...threadid=68469

They aren't going to be here until at the earliest Q4 2004. Your 940 FX chips are going to be around for a while, and if you wait for those you might as well hang out until the 65nm chips come out in Q2 2005 or the K9 65nm chips hit in Q4 2005, hehe.

[superart]

Originally posted by airspirit
Wrong wrong wrong (except for the crusty comment ... I prefer salty, though ... sailor thing).

The 940 is pin compatible with the opteron, and 940 pin FX chips will be manufactured through Q4 next year, at which point you can still press later opterons into your socket. The upgrade potential will remain, though not via the mainstream chips.

yea, thats what I said......

Originally posted by superart The pin layout will change. If you get Athlon64 today, you wont be able to upgrade later. You will have to either buy a new mobo/cpu or upgrade to a duron.

except for that typo there. duron is to be read "opteron"

[Tempus]

According to Dirk Meyer (AMD Sr. VP) they have had WORKING 90nm A64 chips for the last 6-9 months. We should expect to see them ALOT soon that Q4 next year.

[iroc409]

ok, so what's the diff between ahtlon 64, fx and opteron?

i take it there's really not much difference between the fx and opteron chips, which makes me ponder, why bother buying the athlon 64?

[Tempus]

The FX-64 is unlocked (the opterons are not ALL unlocked. early chips are)

The FX runs at 2.2ghz. The Opterons run slower.
The 140 = 1.4ghz
The 142 = 1.6
The 144 = 1.8
The 146 = 2.0
The 148 (not out) = 2.2


Opteron:
1meg L2 cache
dual channel on die memory controller
3 hyper transports
registered ram

FX:
1meg L2 cache
dual channel on die memory controller
1 hypertransport (3 total. only 1 active)
registered ram

A64:
1meg L2 cache
single channel on die memory controller
1 hypertransport
standard ram

[phill9700]

Originally posted by airspirit
Wrong wrong wrong (except for the crusty comment ... I prefer salty, though ... sailor thing).

The 940 is pin compatible with the opteron, and 940 pin FX chips will be manufactured through Q4 next year, at which point you can still press later opterons into your socket. The upgrade potential will remain, though not via the mainstream chips.

As for putting that machine together, I will definitely have assistance from providence on that one. Things are just coming together right ... or may, since I will get confimation on the project within the week.

was i saying something wrong there? if i was, sorry!

im just confused as to what to upgrade to, as i said before, i have the duron rig thats in my signature and i do want a faster machine.. its just getting a little confusing as to what to do.. but as normal, money is a problem.
reading all the reviews on this 64bit stuff, it really looks the biz and i would say that would it would be a good investment for myself, should i buy the correct models of everything so that its not going to be a wasted upgrade..
as one of the guys are saying, they are changing the amd 64 fx next year to use non registered memory and that it will be a different pin setup as well, 939 pins correct? so by buying now, its not going to be so worth it as it would be to wait till next year, correct?

@ Tempus - do you have one of these bad boy setups already? judging by your sig you do.. whats it performing like with you?

[airspirit]

I gotcha now, Superart. I was like "wtf???", but that all makes sense now.

The FX chip is a rebadged 148 chip. They are expected to announce the X48 line of opterons by the end of the month, but I imagine they took the best of the 148s in production and labelled them "FX" chips.

As for the 90nm chips, they have links in that thread I posted earlier to comments during shareholder meetings with AMD in which they state that they have NOT made any 90nm chips yet and are going to be making test runs in Q1-Q2 next year, and they state that ramping won't happen until later. I would be interested in reading conflicting comments ... though I would trust comments in shareholder meetings more than off-the-cuff comments by the brass outside of them ... if you lie during your shareholder meetings you are just asking to get your pee-pee whacked by the SEC where offhand remarks at other times can just be chalked up to accidentally misreporting information.

As for the later opterons not being unlocked, if you have any links to proof I would want to read that. I'm not doubting you in the least, so don't get me wrong ... I just want to make sure I'm not missing something here, and since I WILL be using later opterons, it is something I need to know if that is the case.

[Tempus]

I understand your desire to go by "official" shareholder comments. But, I don't really label my talks with them as off the cuff either. Dirk is basically the man over at AMD. He's the guy that ran the US product launch and is basically responsible for all of it.

And he said "we have had working 90nm models in our hands for over 6* months now." *it might have been 9 months. Let me see if I can get a copy of the video tape and find it.

That being said, the push for 90nm isn't always the best business sense. They have alot invested in Fab30 and need to get the ROI on it. 90nm is a better chip but won't refill to coffers.

The shareholder statement maybe have been about shipping parts and not about things in the lab / design room.


I don't have links about the later opterons. It was in a conversation with Rich Heye (from AMD) and Mark DeFrey about the unlocked nature of the chips and they future plans and all that crap. It was over the course of 5 or 6 talks so I'm sorry if its a bit wiggly. I'll email one of them today and see if I can get a quote/link for you that way.

and, fyi, most of my talks w/ these guys were formal on-camera interviews as part of the area-64 prize package. You can see some pieces of them on the area-64 website, like when I asked Dirk Meyer about the rebadged barton chips. It may not have been a new york times class interview but I doubt he was just making it up.

[airspirit]

I will be eagerly awaiting new information. If they do indeed have the 90nm parts in pre-production, they will be in a good position to kick some major-league ass and we'll be seeing lower prices (as well as faster chips!) soon ... and that is good for all of us. AMD has to start making a profit, and the switch to 90nm would put them in a place where that would be much easier than it is now (due to material cost and other reasons).

[superart]

as one of the guys are saying, they are changing the amd 64 fx next year to use non registered memory and that it will be a different pin setup as well, 939 pins correct? so by buying now, its not going to be so worth it as it would be to wait till next year, correct?

Bingo!! especially if you consider that "next year" is only a whopping 2 months away.

And the new releas of the FX chips can't be too far off, since Unreal2004 64bit is coming out in time for x-mas, so AMD will probably try to capitalize on that and start shipping new chips accordingly.