The question of unbiased engineers

[jaydee]

Originally posted by joemac
You are not going to get any arguments from me on that. The only thing that I would like to point out is that you are not only shrinking the die but at the same time you are adding more heat in that same area (more transistors in a smaller area). So where you once had X amount of transistor in a 100-140mm^2 area you now have Y.

Not necassarily. Along with Die shrinks and new cores also comes along with more efficent cores that require less power to do the same things. Much like the T-Bird to XP core change. The T-Bird 1400@1400mhz runs about as hot as a XP1700+@1800mhz.

Although the temps may get worst before they get better. In any event the current commercial blocks, including yours, can easlily handle it for sometime to come even if the wattage increase's.

In 2005 they plan on the release of Dual core CPU's. That will be a fun time for block design.

[joemac]

Originally posted by jaydee116
Not necassarily. Along with Die shrinks and new cores also comes along with more efficent cores that require less power to do the same things. Much like the T-Bird to XP core change. The T-Bird 1400@1400mhz runs about as hot as a XP1700+@1800mhz.

Although the temps may get worst before they get better. In any event the current commercial blocks, including yours, can easlily handle it for sometime to come even if the wattage increase's.

In 2005 they plan on the release of Dual core CPU's. That will be a fun time for block design.

I sure look forward to the dual cores Now I did not mean to say that the heat load would double but that it will go up some, the increase would then like you pointed out depend on the process for growing a CPU used at the time, material etc. If anything one can always add a bigger pump to their system and bigger and bigger.

[Cathar]

Originally posted by bigben2k
Looking forward to 100mm^2 die sizes again, and Cascade remaining solidly on top of the charts.

The Cascade cooling area will optimally cope with up to 350mm^2 bare-die CPU's, and ~250mm^2 IHS-afflicted CPU's. It can cope with larger areas with a slow drop-off in performance as one pushes larger. The area outside of the main 350mm^2 sized jet section would offer a cooling effect not too different to a Maze 3, but until we see die-sizes that large, the Cascade's performance will hold up very well to all current, near and far future CPU's.

[satanicoo]

AFAIK, Cores get bigger mainly because of larger caches, but caches dont really heat very much right?

Are we looking to cool more and more hot-spots because of that?

[winewood]

I would think the cache could be just as hot or hotter. The cache is the swap for all the instructions. The more the cache is utilized the faster the chip can load the data. I have no idea as to heat, but logically I could assume it wouldn't be a cool area on the chip. If memory sticks get warm with a large surface area, imagine the memory created with the .13 micron on the die.
I remember seeing a thermal image of a core before. Does anyone have a pic of it or know where to find one on the recent chips?

[WAJ_UK]

I have made a couple of graphs of how the heat flux has increased with clock speed for AMD and Intel chips using information from Tom's Hardware and Overclockers.com
They are too big to attach though so if anyone is interested let me know

[winewood]

Interested: Please give us a link if you can...

[WAJ_UK]

sorry I have no way of hosting the pics I could send you the excel file if you want or just the jpegs of the graphs

[WAJ_UK]

here's one

[WAJ_UK]

and the other (managed to make them small enough)

[WAJ_UK]

They are a bit simpified I know I'm just using them to show the trend of how things are changing

[Blackeagle]

Originally posted by winewood
LOL! Narrowly define the testing to a single SMALL market. Now constrict what we know of your definition of an engineer in this market is to that scenario. Now use that to reason away the entire findings of that NPR program. You wish it could be so easy.
Homework? Try accepting that data on a whole can apply to even small insignifcant markets as well as the larger ones. Since that article was directed to 'engineers' who are selling products and THAT effecting reviews, please tell us what company you work for and profit from pHestus to think yourself included in the brush that joemac paints.
If you don't apply to the conversation as to the scenario, then feel free to exclude yourself from the picture, or explain who you are paid by. Now consider this for ONE moment. Bill is what you call 'picky' and an a$$blaster regarding imperfection. I don't think there is even a word for it on this forum. Maybe if it was printed out it would be represented in **** due to filters. HOWEVER, the single fact that he is not bashing and TEARING up Swiftechs inner workings on this forum and products considering the unrestricted access he has proves it is being held in check. Now tie that to a paycheck. Now admit that ALL data isn't being published regarding the hidden skeletons in that HUGE closet at Swiftech. Balls to bone it isn't ALL pretty. Yet the non-pretty data isnt being focused on in multiple forums and detailed graphs by yours truely. In fact that is not even considered for publishing. NOW you have the bias that is motivated by money.
Who am I to point fingers?? A nobody, because I would do the exact same thing. I am at least honest enough to call it 'bias' linked to financial gain. Hell, offer me a bean burrito to keep quiet on a review from me, and you bought a LOAD of silence.

And this ISNT a bill bashing forum. I think its a lesson in waking up to fact, and you can apply it to any company. Don't want to be a part of the broad brush? Stop your paycheck.

Bill Adams can be described, and with language that should pass the filters.

Bill, IMO, can be described as focused, intense (perhaps even driven), and goal oriented. And his goal is accuracy, and he is continually working towards ever greater accuracy by demanding of himself ever greater precesion in every single test he runs & measurment he takes. Errors are to be eliminated ruthlessly, and those who would push error ridden "reviews" or pose as experts, but spew BS on the public stand in the way of what I believe Bill wants to see come of his efforts. And for sure this leads to Bill having a short fuse with some of those spewing BS, sometimes extremely short fused.

He wants honest & accurate testing to take the place of all the BS reviews we have now. Right now you can count the number of real bench testers on one hand. Now that is sad, and needs correction.

I've seen Bill many times help a poster who is ignorant on the topic of water cooling. God knows I sure was when first I came here. Bill can in fact be a pretty good teacher, when he has a student that is interested more in learning than spouting out BS. Bill's BS detector is a rather quick reaction factor in all this. And Bill is sure enough outspoken when he's calling someone on posting what is BS.

Jaydee has a even faster reaction factor at times. To many noobs at one time, or worse perhaps, the Player0's, seem to be regarded as a curse on all he finds worthwhile in this hobby.

And sometimes the flustration of the whole thing gets to them both and they may use a verbal fire storm where perhaps a word of repeated correction would have served better.

What I find rather amazing is that pH very seldom lets loose, as he did a few posts back regarding your attacks.

Those who are into bench testing Winewood don't do it for the money. They spend more in TIME and money than they are ever compensated for. And that includes Bill as well as pH & JoeC. Bill has spent far more of his money, and his TIME than he's likely to recoup for several more years, if ever. JoeC is the only one I think may be covering his expenses with enough left over to compensate him at all well for his effort, and only due to his running a major web site for this hobby.

And Winewood, the very reason Bill no longer tests for a range of companys & individuals isn't due to his being biased, it's due to his knowing many would have that perception, regardless what his findings were.

The saddest part of your above post is that at the end, you show that YOU would do what you accuse Bill wrongly of. I think that yourself and JoeMac need to step back and reconsider what you are typing before you post some of it. It seems to me that what is coming ever more clear is that you both attack Bill for what you KNOW you'd be doing in his place, not for anything he's actually done.

And while you claim Bill should be attacking Swiftech in public to keep his unbiased position in YOUR eyes, only a fool would do as you suggest. And Bill isn't a fool. Don't you think that some of the new items Swiftech is coming out with shows his influance? And I suspect his influance there started sometime prior to his being employed there. Look at the new MCW5002 block, note it's lowered top, for greater turbulence and water velocity. I seem to recall seeing a modded Swiftech block over a year ago that Bill did, and tested in one of his articles at OverClockers. Not a surprise Swiftech acted on the ideas put forward. And is not the 600 series pump, the very poster child for the sort of pump Bill has promoted for a long time now? ONly a idiot attacks his employer in public, that is not the way to effect change. You effect change from within a company, by advancing your ideas, to improve what may well be wrong with the companys operations or products. And every valued contribution you make, paves the way for further chances to advance your ideas for making both the company and it's product better. Bill hasn't been at Swiftech long enough to effect sweeping change, you can't drop whole product lines without having new products researched and ready to replace them. And yes, even Bill needs a good bit of time to do those things. Wait and see what other changes in Swiftech's murchandise comes about in the next year. I expect to see a number of changes happen, for both the company's and our (consumers) benifit.

One last thought for you Winewood and JoeMac, as you seem to have decided that it's time for the sh!t to hit the fan, you really should have noted that you were standing in front of the fan, prior to shoveling in sh!t. :shrug:

[joemac]

Originally posted Blackeagle
And Winewood, the very reason Bill no longer tests for a range of companys & individuals isn't due to his being biased, it's due to his knowing many would have that perception, regardless what his findings were.

Blackeagle lets think about this for a minute in a different industry. Ok let take the car industry when was the last time you saw a G.M tester test a ford car and then publish an article on how well it performed? What’s that you haven’t? Bill was a neutral party a sort of car and driver magazine type. Now let’s say G.M bought car and driver do you think they would still be perceived as unbiased? Do you think others would regardless of what the magazine findings were?

Originally posted Blackeagle
The saddest part of your above post is that at the end, you show that YOU would do what you accuse Bill wrongly of. I think that yourself and JoeMac need to step back and reconsider what you are typing before you post some of it. It seems to me that what is coming ever more clear is that you both attack Bill for what you KNOW you'd be doing in his place, not for anything he's actually done.

Now I can’t talk for winewood but I only state what is obvious.

Originally posted Blackeagle

And while you claim Bill should be attacking Swiftech in public to keep his unbiased position in YOUR eyes, only a fool would do as you suggest. And Bill isn't a fool. Don't you think that some of the new items Swiftech is coming out with shows his influance? And I suspect his influance there started sometime prior to his being employed there. Look at the new MCW5002 block, note it's lowered top, for greater turbulence and water velocity. I seem to recall seeing a modded Swiftech block over a year ago that Bill did, and tested in one of his articles at OverClockers. Not a surprise Swiftech acted on the ideas put forward. And is not the 600 series pump, the very poster child for the sort of pump Bill has promoted for a long time now?

I agree only a fool would think that someone would remain unbiased when their company finances are at stake. You even make my point. “Don't you think that some of the new items Swiftech is coming out with shows his influance?” now don’t you think that swiftech would also influence bill?

Originally posted Blackeagle
One last thought for you Winewood and JoeMac, as you seem to have decided that it's time for the sh!t to hit the fan, you really should have noted that you were standing in front of the fan, prior to shoveling in sh!t.

Really? Did I ever question Bills goal to obtain accuracy? No. Did I question bills moral like he questioned mine? No. You must not realize that Bill tested a block for us and that we used his finding to make the aquajoe bock. Did his test improve our design? Yes. Does Bill question the performance of our block? Not that I have seen. What he does question is the way some results are obtained and so do I why? Way too many variables.

This is not a personal attack this is my response to the statement
“ I am an engineer, and the facts are the facts
I do not misrepresent, twist words, or shade meanings”

I presented a compelling argument that, while a person may be an engineer it does not necessarily mean that the facts are not twisted even though they may still be facts. It just so happened that Bill was the one that said (typed) that, had it been anyone else I would have presented him with the same argument.

Its nice to see that Bill is helping JoeC with his test bench. JoeC is from most ways of looking at this independent. Blackeagle I want the same thing that most in this hobby want –and- what could that be? A fair and accepted method of testing performed by independent sources. While you may think of me as just another manufacture the truth is that this is just a hobby for TKC and myself. Does this mean if you purchased a block from us that it will be of low quality? No. Does this mean that we want to sell something to a fellow hobbyist that does not perform? No. Do I own other blocks? Yes In fact I own 5 or 6 different blocks – why do you think I went off and had my own built. What happen is we went out caught the Big Boys attention and they try to pound us for it nothing more nothing less. Let me ask you have you been to www.aquajoe.com have you noticed how low our prices are? Why are they so low? Because we want to push this hobby.Is it rewarding? Yes I would not do it if I did not enjoy pushing hardware to the limit.

[Cathar]

Blackeagle lets think about this for a minute in a different industry. Ok let take the car industry when was the last time you saw a G.M tester test a ford car and then publish an article on how well it performed? What’s that you haven’t?

Perhaps you chose a bad example in the car industry?

http://www.jeep.com/trailrated/index...e&type=mainImg

[Blackeagle]

Joemac,

Did you question BillA's accuracy? No. And why is that? It's due to the fact his accuracy is better than anyone else's at this time.

"...don't you think Swiftech would also influance Bill?"

YES. But not in the way you seem to think. As Bill is employed with Swiftech he is working to help Swiftech improve it's product line, and he's no longer doing nearly what he once did to help other block makers do the same. If not for this, why the hell would Swiftech bother to pay Bill???? Hell, they'd sit back and make note of comments he'd make that could improve their product line without it costing them a dime. So they are paying him to focus his research and efforts on THEIR product line alone. Their gain is a major loss to the rest of the community, but that is the way it goes.

Do I think Bill is/has shown bias toward other peoples products, by attacking them, in the time he's worked for Swiftech? NO! Do I think some people, including yourself, precieve Bill's (sometimes sharply worded) comments in this and other forums, to be now so motiveated? YES, but that doesn't make it so. And once again, this is why Bill stoped writing formal articles and doing testing.

In fact, IMO, your attacks, YES ATTACKS, on Bill's ethics (bias if you prefer), are very much intended to silence Bill's voice, or discredit what he says in the eyes of the community of computer builders. Your string of posts both here and at other sites in this vien, are a cynical way of convincing people to disregard what Bill has to say as automaticly biased. Like the old saying goes, "A lie, told often enough, and loudly enough, becomes the truth or history.", (same for inuendos). In this way you will no longer have to weather Bill's pointing out TRUTHS you don't want looked at to closely, like your "kit".


While I've not commented on what I've seen going on up to now, that's changed with this thread. I'll not keep quiet while you continue to try to smear a good man's reputation with inuendo. Last night pH suggested that you should try to offer a real example of Bill, or other engineer, distorting fact in the water cooling community. You didn't manage to come up with one damn thing.

You seem really determined to instead, when challanged for your attacks, to just verbally wring your hands claiming, "No, I didn't say that." or "That's not what I mean...." Blah, blah, blah....then continue to restate the same arguements intended to errode Bill's reputation and to attempt to make him appear biased. Well saying, "what if....", or "........they could" don't make it.

Like I said last night, you're standing in front of the fan.

[Blackeagle]

You asked in your last post if I've ever been to your site. Yes, in fact I've been there a couple times. And just to be sure I'd missed nothing new, I just checked it again.

Why not take down the leading item on the front page? The one regarding a kit you don't have for sale. At least until you do?

You have a good block Joemac, it's one of the very best for TEC use IMO. Would you like to make it better? Get rid of the damned aluminum top! ! I myself have never shown any interest in your block for the same reason I don't own a Swiftech, aluminum is NOT going to be in any system I build. So how's about a copper top? Yes it would cost more to make, charge more for it, Silverprop does. Or a Lexan top, that wouldn't cost nearly as much as a copper one, but would sell to guys like me that have no intention of having aluminum is a system (please note I said Lexan, not a cheaper plexi, which I at least wouldn't trust.)

Your chance to get the jump on Swiftech, Danger Den's blocks are at the moment ahead of you both in this area, as is Silverprop. Although I don't know if Silverprop makes much effort toward the TEC area market.

You asked me to look at your pricing, I did, and yes it's pretty good. But I shop more for max performance not price, which is why I have a Cascade.

Also why I'm still try'n to pull a rig together instead of having it finished.:shrug:

[BillA]

Blackeagle
you will never win an argument with a propagandist,
you just provide them with yet another opportunity to peddle their line

a most simple analogy can be made:
whores deny the existence of virtue, thereby casting all other women as whores - no different than they
(do you recall that old Judy Collins song ?, lol)

Joemac
you came to my attention because of your 'product' presentation, and unsubstantiated performance claims
NOT because of your product's performance
in due course your wb's performance will be described (it is already known)

- and then the 'question’ will be:
was your testing capability not so hot ?
or you simply made false and misleading statements as part of your marketing spiel ?

so the "BIG BOYS" are concerned about their marketshare given your product's price/performance ?
- good to see you have a sense of humor

[bigben2k]

Joemac, I think you're right in not releasing your numbers. You and I have discussed this to some extent.

FWIW...

I think that the term "engineering" is loosely applied here. None of us are up to par, IMO, in engineering a block design: by today's standards, it would involve CFD tools, and the only few people I know that are knowledgeable enough about it, don't design blocks, with the exception of Roscal.

I'd call it "engineering" if this was 1950 or something, because we're really down to trial and error, when it comes to designs, after figuring out a basic design. Take the Cascade for example: you'd have to make about 30 variations of it, to get it right, and you could easily make another 30, refining it. It's more cost efficient to do this trial and error, then to go to university and get the corresponding degree (something that some people don't seem to get). You do however need a basic understanding of the scientific principles behind it all, but it isn't something that a reasonably intelligent person can't pick up throughout these forums. Case in point: my contribution to the Cascade design.


The original topic of this thread I think, came from BillA's apparent "interference" with JoeC's review of "the kit". For what it's worth, I can vouge for Bill being unbiased in his effort to have the review corrected, in spite of his affiliation with Swiftech. JoeC was at fault, but it isn't something that won't be fixed, and the results still stand clear. I actually have to commend Bill for pointing out the issue: I know it went right above my head!


One thing that still irks me, is reviews that don't state their error margins. As I pointed out in another thread, Player0's latest roundup's got to have an error margin of at least 2 deg C, and given that the spread of measured temps is about 5 deg C, the review's end result really, is seperating the "best" from the "worst". In thespirit of this thread, I'd sure like to see that discussed!



WA_JUK: got a graph for the latest Prescott predictions?

[jaydee]

Originally posted by Blackeagle


You have a good block Joemac, it's one of the very best for TEC use IMO. Would you like to make it better? Get rid of the damned aluminum top! ! I myself have never shown any interest in your block for the same reason I don't own a Swiftech, aluminum is NOT going to be in any system I build. So how's about a copper top?

no, no, no... BRASS Would be much more praticle. Not only does it machine very well but it is ALREADY Gold!!! No need for the extra cost of anodizing.

[Blackeagle]

Originally posted by jaydee116
no, no, no... BRASS Would be much more praticle. Not only does it machine very well but it is ALREADY Gold!!! No need for the extra cost of anodizing.

Thanks for the help, a third good option! And well polished brass does look very good.

[jaydee]

Originally posted by Blackeagle


Jaydee has a even faster reaction factor at times. To many noobs at one time, or worse perhaps, the Player0's, seem to be regarded as a curse on all he finds worthwhile in this hobby.

Man I missed all kinds of good stuff this weekend. Thats what I get for actually doing some of the shit I spew on these forums.

What bugs me the most is new members that in there very first post on this forum hit at least 5 key areas that have touched off sparks on this forum and I cannot tell if they are here to start shit or they are truley that clueless. I honestly belive they are here to start shit. Because they get an answer and if it doesn't turn into a flame fest they leave and never heard from again. But if it does turn into a flame fest they continue to hit the right phrases to keep the fire burning.

I have cought onto this little act and would alomost bet money there is one person under 30 different names on this forum posting the same flame bait over and over again.

I have learned to ignore this as of late and concentrate on known ligitimate people like Player0 and his misguided adventures here. People that are apart of a site and post misleading dribble touch a nerve with me. I for one am tired of the BS. The internet is going the way of the TV now. ADS, ADS, ADS, ADS and more ADS! The thing is they are in the form of (p)reviews now. It is also about who can get the most hits and traffic. And like TV it went from informing and entertaining the veiwer to how much money they can get for ads and how many hits they can get. The viewers are not on the top of the list anymore. Just like the viewers of TV are not first on the list anymore. Now it is about rating. How to get the most people watching so you can charge the advertizers more for advertizing on your network.
And the more people you get to view your network to more advertizers will want to advertize on your network.

The worst part about the net is on TV it kind of regulated itself as not just any jack off with $5 extra a month for a webhost and enough brains to install a premade site can spam the net with worthless cap content, spruce it up to make it sound good ("World Exclusive") and then drive a bunch of lost sheep, that probably just wrote the whole article off as vaporware, and get credit for the hits on alexa and then get more advertizers interested in your site even though the article was completely worthless and the viewers didn't even care enough to check the forums out!

Bah, there I go on another rant... Time for bed now.

[pHaestus]

got something on your mind JayDee?

[BillA]

joemac

this is an example of the bias you would attribute to me ?

don't tell us, we already know what you would have done

[winewood]

I don't think most of you get what bias truly is by the responses.

Lets say you test a product and it tests bad under some circumstatnces. As an employee, you focus on what your product does best and encourage others to look at the products best features and not mention the thing the product cant do.
When you guys put up something to sell you dont put

Sucks for 99% of users VERY impractical
New narrow market item thats ugly!
Bias. Its not always a negative, but quite frankly a fact of life. And it does effect all people. Recommending a certain product from your company as a good product - bias. No evil intended. Encouraging people to use a strong pump in most cases - bacause you just happen to make money from strong pumps. Posting on how unbias you are in order to promote a better image so people give you more credibility - bias. Finding irony for self gratification with I could have just past this by - bias.

[winewood]

bias (v. t.) To incline to one side; to give a particular direction to; to influence; to prejudice; to prepossess.

Marketing of any kind. Influencing toward a product. Pointing direction to a testing method because you belive in it.

To say you have no bias is saying I have no prejudices, I am not attempting to influence or give direction toward anyone with a different opinion. Someone stating this has to be in a coma or doesn't understand the definition.