Common Tips for Watercooling - Page 2

dcrainman · 06-25-2002, 01:17 PM

easy change? no selas needed

bigben2k · 06-25-2002, 01:49 PM

Yeah, that's it. It's a free flowing system!!!

The thing is though, the volume of coolant will fluctuate, so you'll have to make sure that this long tube is pretty filled, so that the coolant is sucked in by the rad, but not so full that it spills, if the coolant expands.

Back to the top hole idea...

That's why I prefer a top res to an airtrap.

bigben2k · 06-25-2002, 01:51 PM

Alternatively, you could extend a flexible tube down that big one, to make sure that the rad captures something. It'll all depend on the size of all these tubes...

dcrainman · 06-25-2002, 01:52 PM

Bigben I'm not following you on the coolant level changing, I think you are reading the flow backwards

dcrainman · 06-25-2002, 01:53 PM

a flexible tube running down would defeat the purpose of the air trap type tube

Quickmcj · 06-25-2002, 02:05 PM

It is quiet hard for me to understand technical english...but I am really trying

OK, if I do like my picture under this text will it work then ?

Can I forget an airtrap at the rad. if I do like this.........

bigben2k · 06-25-2002, 02:06 PM

I see! Sorry, I didn't notice that you changed the direction...

Yes, that's good!

bigben2k · 06-25-2002, 02:09 PM

Yes, that will work, but you should try to extend the tube all the way up, above the rad.

Quickmcj · 06-25-2002, 02:09 PM

Man its really nice, that you all are so friendly

dcrainman · 06-25-2002, 02:12 PM

the way you drew it there is no reason to illongate the tube you will meerly be relying on the flow of water to get all the air out which may or may not work. If you follow my drawing (reverse the flow

) and exhaust the radiator into the tall pipe above the radiator height (air only likes to travel up, not down) the air will come out of the radiator (and reast of system) into the tall pipe

Quickmcj · 06-25-2002, 02:13 PM

Bigben>>>

OK, but then i have to cut another hole in the case, so that the checkvalve will be above the rad.

The "tube" thing with the checkvalve will be a hose...so that i can bend it abit.....otherwise it will interfere with HD etc. if it isnt a hose, that is possible to bend abit.

dcrainman · 06-25-2002, 02:16 PM

good luck

Quickmcj · 06-25-2002, 02:25 PM

But wont the CPU temp. be quiet high if i cool the Graphic and chipset first ?

But then why not just build an airtrap at the Rad. ? and let the refill be at the res ?

you know this one and this res. can be placed in the buttom...and it has an refill at the top.

The reason why I am so in to place the res. at the buttom is because the lack of case size. I REALLY need to buy a maxi later....but no money now. The watersystem costet me 313,78 us dollar.

bigben2k · 06-25-2002, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dcrainman
the way you drew it there is no reason to illongate the tube you will meerly be relying on the flow of water to get all the air out which may or may not work. If you follow my drawing (reverse the flow ) and exhaust the radiator into the tall pipe above the radiator height (air only likes to travel up, not down) the air will come out of the radiator (and reast of system) into the tall pipe

Yes, but when the pump stops, the rad drains out. Also, the rad outlet will make noise splashing around.

If the tube is flexible, then flex it around, but to the top.

Quickmcj · 06-25-2002, 02:28 PM

And DCrainman.

The CPU has one inlet and two outlet....not one in an one out. Therefor if i do it your way, the water will not splash down on the core.....it will be drag backwards up the hose, that normally is used as inlet.

bigben2k · 06-25-2002, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Quickmcj
Bigben>>>

OK, but then i have to cut another hole in the case, so that the checkvalve will be above the rad.

The "tube" thing with the checkvalve will be a hose...so that i can bend it abit.....otherwise it will interfere with HD etc. if it isnt a hose, that is possible to bend abit.

If you're going to use a checkvalve, then just extend it above the rad, to where your fans are. That'll work.

Cova · 06-25-2002, 02:29 PM

Yes - that latest pic Quickmcj is exactly what I'm trying to get at. It'll work even better if you can tilt the entire roof of the res like that to get air to gather at a single point up there. And IMHO you don't need a second air-trap at the top. You just need to make sure that when you initially fill the system that you get as much air as possible out of the rad and block by tilting them around a bunch before mounting. Very small air pockets should be pushed away by the pump and should gather in the res where the speed of the liquid is much slower and they can escape the flow again.

And then there are only 2 things you need to worry about:

1. If the rad and block are both still higher than the top of that refill area of the rad then with the pump off gravity may pull the water down out of the high points of the system, and it may flow back up out the fill point. But now that I think about it there should be no way for air to get into the rad/block area up there - which means water can't flow out (nothing to take it's place except water in the res, which means that water-level in the res won't move), which means it should be safe. I'd recommend opening that valve with the system out of the computer and the rad lifted up good and high just to make sure though.

2. If you move the system around (eg. LAN) - you need to keep the res vertical so that air bubble can't find its way into one of the hoses/the pump. Easiest way is just to transport the case vertically (thats how I keep my air-bubble at the top).

And of course - I can't make a post without a rebuttal to the flames

Quote:

However, if the inlets extend in the water, and the res is open, it is still a closed loop (I think you got that!)

Maybe one of us needs to re-think our definition of a closed-loop system, because what I just quoted in my mind would not be closed-loop. The definition I've had in mind would basically state that if it holds pressure, it's closed-loop. If the res is open, it doesn't hold pressure. (Not counting during maintenence when you may open a valve to fill/drain the loop).

Quote:

The thing is though, the volume of coolant will fluctuate, so you'll have to make sure that this long tube is pretty filled, so that the coolant is sucked in by the rad, but not so full that it spills, if the coolant expands.

The volume of coolant in your system should definatly NOT fluctuate. If it does, you have a leak somewhere and are constantly re-filling to compensate. The water-level in your res may fluctuate if you have an air-bubble trapped in the system and the bubble is moving around. But volume of coolant is a constant in virtually every water-cooling system except for bong-coolers.

And as for blocks (or anything else) that traps air..., what you have is something like the situation in my newest crappy picture (I avoided jpeg this time though). Water moving fast around the corners will leave small air-pockets in the dead spaces just after the corner. By turning the pump off and back on, many of these bubbles will have moved out of the corner and may be picked up (at least partially) by the water-flow, and can then be trapped in the air-trap, wherever it is in the system. If you happen to be really unlucky one of these dead-spots in the flow may also be in the highest position in it's area, so that it doesn't move at all when flow is shut off. When this happens you need to move the block around (eg, lay on side) and turn the pump on and off a few times to try and dislodge the air-bubble. Though - if there is a dead-spot in the flow anyways, I'm not sure if it makes any difference in cooling ability of the block if there's non-moving air, or non-moving water in that spot.

bigben2k · 06-25-2002, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Quickmcj
But wont the CPU temp. be quiet high if i cool the Graphic and chipset first ?

But then why not just build an airtrap at the Rad. ? and let the refill be at the res ?

you know this one and this res. can be placed in the buttom...and it has an refill at the top.

The reason why I am so in to place the res. at the buttom is because the lack of case size. I REALLY need to buy a maxi later....but no money now. The watersystem costet me 313,78 us dollar.

313.78$ Yikes!!!

I agree, the res needs to be at the bottom, otherwise, it'll have to sit on top of the case.

As for the order of things...We've already established that it needs to be:
rad>tube>pump.

How it goes from there, can be anything.

rad>tube>pump>(CPU WB)>(GPU and NB WB)>rad.

bigben2k · 06-25-2002, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cova
Yes - that latest pic Quickmcj is exactly what I'm trying to get at. It'll work even better if you can tilt the entire roof of the res like that to get air to gather at a single point up there. And IMHO you don't need a second air-trap at the top. You just need to make sure that when you initially fill the system that you get as much air as possible out of the rad and block by tilting them around a bunch before mounting. Very small air pockets should be pushed away by the pump and should gather in the res where the speed of the liquid is much slower and they can escape the flow again.

And then there are only 2 things you need to worry about:

1. If the rad and block are both still higher than the top of that refill area of the rad then with the pump off gravity may pull the water down out of the high points of the system, and it may flow back up out the fill point. But now that I think about it there should be no way for air to get into the rad/block area up there - which means water can't flow out (nothing to take it's place except water in the res, which means that water-level in the res won't move), which means it should be safe. I'd recommend opening that valve with the system out of the computer and the rad lifted up good and high just to make sure though.

2. If you move the system around (eg. LAN) - you need to keep the res vertical so that air bubble can't find its way into one of the hoses/the pump. Easiest way is just to transport the case vertically (thats how I keep my air-bubble at the top).

And of course - I can't make a post without a rebuttal to the flames

Maybe one of us needs to re-think our definition of a closed-loop system, because what I just quoted in my mind would not be closed-loop. The definition I've had in mind would basically state that if it holds pressure, it's closed-loop. If the res is open, it doesn't hold pressure. (Not counting during maintenence when you may open a valve to fill/drain the loop).

The volume of coolant in your system should definatly NOT fluctuate. If it does, you have a leak somewhere and are constantly re-filling to compensate. The water-level in your res may fluctuate if you have an air-bubble trapped in the system and the bubble is moving around. But volume of coolant is a constant in virtually every water-cooling system except for bong-coolers.

And as for blocks (or anything else) that traps air..., what you have is something like the situation in my newest crappy picture (I avoided jpeg this time though). Water moving fast around the corners will leave small air-pockets in the dead spaces just after the corner. By turning the pump off and back on, many of these bubbles will have moved out of the corner and may be picked up (at least partially) by the water-flow, and can then be trapped in the air-trap, wherever it is in the system. If you happen to be really unlucky one of these dead-spots in the flow may also be in the highest position in it's area, so that it doesn't move at all when flow is shut off. When this happens you need to move the block around (eg, lay on side) and turn the pump on and off a few times to try and dislodge the air-bubble. Though - if there is a dead-spot in the flow anyways, I'm not sure if it makes any difference in cooling ability of the block if there's non-moving air, or non-moving water in that spot.

Boy, this is getting long...

Ok, the tube doesn't need to extend to the top, but it is a safety precaution, in case the loop develops a leak. How remote that possibility is, no one can tell.

The volume of coolant SHOULDN'T fluctuate, but it will, with the temps rising and dropping. It should be negligeable though. Also there will be a bit of evaporation, but that's definitely negligeable too (unless you're using silicone tubing).

Closed loop: if those inlets run under the waterline, then the coolant going up refills the res, thereby keeping the same water level. It's a closed loop, res open or not.

Quickmcj · 06-25-2002, 02:50 PM

This is not a good suquestion

Quickmcj · 06-25-2002, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Closed loop: if those inlets run under the waterline, then the coolant going up refills the res, thereby keeping the same water level. It's a closed loop, res open or not.

That I have understood

I tried it just 2 min. ago, with a little hose filled with water in a cop with water

dcrainman · 06-25-2002, 02:53 PM

yes, perfect, good, do it....

Cova · 06-25-2002, 02:53 PM

Aye - it is getting to be rather long. But it gives me something to do at work (though I gotta go to a meeting in 10 minutes)

I'm afraid I'm still going to have to disagree with you on the definition of a closed-loop system. I couldn't find a good definition on dictionary.com, but IMHO a system has to be closed and sealed to qualify as closed-loop.

And under my definition of closed-loop (and not counting evaporation right through silicon hose - technically that is an opening in the system) - you have no evaporation, and expansion/contraction of coolant with temp is very small - likely beyond our ability to measure as the pressure inside the system will increase then and all the tubing will stretch a bit to compensate (at least mine would, tygon is stretchy). And so water-volume does not change by any measureable amount (mass of coolant is constant, volume that it occupies may fluctuate incredibly slightly, but not enough that I'm gonna worry about it).

dcrainman · 06-25-2002, 02:55 PM

closed system to me sounds like no air (is there a diffference between that and inline?

Cova · 06-25-2002, 02:57 PM

In this picture:

That would work well - make sure that the water-level in the large tube up the right is above the hole where the rad connects though.

Edit: damn IMG tag never works for me - but that should have showed up as Quickmcj's latest attached picture.

06-25-2002, 01:49 PM	#27
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Yeah, that's it. It's a free flowing system!!! The thing is though, the volume of coolant will fluctuate, so you'll have to make sure that this long tube is pretty filled, so that the coolant is sucked in by the rad, but not so full that it spills, if the coolant expands. Back to the top hole idea... That's why I prefer a top res to an airtrap. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

06-25-2002, 01:51 PM	#28
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Alternatively, you could extend a flexible tube down that big one, to make sure that the rad captures something. It'll all depend on the size of all these tubes... __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

06-25-2002, 02:06 PM	#32
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	I see! Sorry, I didn't notice that you changed the direction... Yes, that's good! __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

06-25-2002, 02:09 PM	#33
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Yes, that will work, but you should try to extend the tube all the way up, above the rad. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

06-25-2002, 01:52 PM	#29
dcrainman Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ma, usa Posts: 50	Bigben I'm not following you on the coolant level changing, I think you are reading the flow backwards

06-25-2002, 01:53 PM	#30
dcrainman Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ma, usa Posts: 50	a flexible tube running down would defeat the purpose of the air trap type tube

06-25-2002, 02:09 PM	#34
Quickmcj Cooling Savant Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 109	Man its really nice, that you all are so friendly

06-25-2002, 02:12 PM	#35
dcrainman Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ma, usa Posts: 50	the way you drew it there is no reason to illongate the tube you will meerly be relying on the flow of water to get all the air out which may or may not work. If you follow my drawing (reverse the flow ) and exhaust the radiator into the tall pipe above the radiator height (air only likes to travel up, not down) the air will come out of the radiator (and reast of system) into the tall pipe

06-25-2002, 02:13 PM	#36
Quickmcj Cooling Savant Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 109	Bigben>>> OK, but then i have to cut another hole in the case, so that the checkvalve will be above the rad. The "tube" thing with the checkvalve will be a hose...so that i can bend it abit.....otherwise it will interfere with HD etc. if it isnt a hose, that is possible to bend abit.

06-25-2002, 02:16 PM	#37
dcrainman Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ma, usa Posts: 50	good luck

06-25-2002, 02:28 PM	#40
Quickmcj Cooling Savant Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 109	And DCrainman. The CPU has one inlet and two outlet....not one in an one out. Therefor if i do it your way, the water will not splash down on the core.....it will be drag backwards up the hose, that normally is used as inlet.

06-25-2002, 02:53 PM	#47
dcrainman Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ma, usa Posts: 50	yes, perfect, good, do it....

06-25-2002, 02:53 PM	#48
Cova Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 247	Aye - it is getting to be rather long. But it gives me something to do at work (though I gotta go to a meeting in 10 minutes) I'm afraid I'm still going to have to disagree with you on the definition of a closed-loop system. I couldn't find a good definition on dictionary.com, but IMHO a system has to be closed and sealed to qualify as closed-loop. And under my definition of closed-loop (and not counting evaporation right through silicon hose - technically that is an opening in the system) - you have no evaporation, and expansion/contraction of coolant with temp is very small - likely beyond our ability to measure as the pressure inside the system will increase then and all the tubing will stretch a bit to compensate (at least mine would, tygon is stretchy). And so water-volume does not change by any measureable amount (mass of coolant is constant, volume that it occupies may fluctuate incredibly slightly, but not enough that I'm gonna worry about it).

06-25-2002, 02:55 PM	#49
dcrainman Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ma, usa Posts: 50	closed system to me sounds like no air (is there a diffference between that and inline?

06-25-2002, 02:57 PM	#50
Cova Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 247	In this picture: That would work well - make sure that the water-level in the large tube up the right is above the hole where the rad connects though. Edit: damn IMG tag never works for me - but that should have showed up as Quickmcj's latest attached picture.

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