The Anti corrosive question revisited

[boomer235]

Thanks Airspirit. I have been trying to find a list of ingredients for the sanitizer with no luck. If anyone knows or can provide a resource let me know.
I would like thoughts on the Humidifier Bacteriostat I am using. As I have stated before it seems OK as I have been using it for 4 months, I tested it undiluted with a copper penny for 48 hours with no discoloration before I put it in my system. Here are the ingredients if anyone has comments.

[pakman]

boomer,

ingredients look like the humidifier bacteriostatic treatment (KAB-8) manufactured by a company called Kaz that I am currently using in my WC setup.

active ingredients: n-alkyl/dimethyl benzyl, ammonium chlorides 1.125%
n Alkyl dimethyl ethybenzyl ammonium chlorides 1.125%
inert ingredients 97.75%

judgement on its effective is still pending as I'm seeing some new growth already (or could it be what's being killed off by this bacterial treatment...)??? this growth could also possibly be from a new component that I installed which may have been contaminated. if it gets worse, I will do another cleaning of all components (w/ airspirits special cleaning blend ...)and see if it develops again

edit: haven't seen any negative effects on my copper blocks yet (roughly 4-5 months)

[boomer235]

Yep I'm right about where you are pakman.
I am really hoping this thread will attract the attention of someone with a chemical background. I think I'm sold on hyperlube, and really just want info on the possible reaction with the anti-bio agent. Whether it is Humidifier bacteriostatic, or Spa sanitizer (or some yet to be named substance)
I know some very knowledgeable people frequent this board, and I know that a great many people would appreciate an educated perspective.
so two things mainly:
1. is the Bacteriostatic listed above have adverse effects I am unaware of?

2. How does the Spa sanitizer differ, and what are its properties?

[Gareth]

Has anyone hear tried heat treatment wear the everything is exposed to at temperature of ~75c for a few minutes, this should kill all bacteria

[airspirit]

I'm using that sanitizer with glycol and hyperlube in a five gallon quantity with scads of copper contact with no reaction. No fumes are coming off of the coolant when the top of my tower is open except for the standard glycol reek. Consider it completely safe.

[Gooserider]

Airspirit:
Could you PLEASE be more specific on the products you are using, and their sources.... Maybe I'm being dumb and confused, but IMHO if one is going to give a recipe, one should supply enough info that it can be duplicated by someone else...

Hyperlube I'm assuming is a brand name, and something I should be able to find at at least some of the online mod shops. Is this correct? Are there less expensive sources?

Red Glycol - Is this automotive antifreeze? If not, what is it? Where do you get it? Either way, is there a BRAND NAME, or will the sales droid know what you are talking about if you say 'Red Glycol'?

Sanitizer - are we correct in assuming that it is the pool and spa stuff?

Thanks, and sorry to keep bugging you on this, but I feel like you are being a bit obscure, I hope it's just me...

Goosserider

[Quarter]

Gooserider ... for the Hyperlube, I think he is referring to this

I've seen it in Kragen Auto stores, most likely at others too.
If I recall right, a bottle ran around $8.

[airspirit]

Hyperlube is a brand name. Red glycol is the 100000 mile variant sold by GM, Toyota, and others that can be found at all auto parts stores (ask for the red glycol and they'll know). For the sanitizer, insist that it is NON CHLORINE NON BROMINE and you will get the right stuff regardless of brand name. Hyperlube is the only branded stuff you have to worry about ... the rest will vary depending on your location and I literally DID NOT have a brand name for the sanitizer since it was sold in a plain generic bottle, though someone else in this thread linked to a branded source. If you're really worried about the glycol, just ask for "RED GM ANTIFREEZE FOR MY R33T ESCALADE, BIZNATCH!" and the parts d00d will know what you're after, hehe.

[h4rm0nix]

just ask for "RED GM ANTIFREEZE FOR MY R33T ESCALADE, BIZNATCH!" and the parts d00d will know what you're after, hehe.

Someone's been to Autozone lately....

chuckle..

H

[neoacid]

I haven't been able to find the GM red glycol that airspirit mentioned. I was wondering if the type that airspirit mentioned contains propylene glycol (or the more common ehtylene glycol) because i did find some Prestone antifreeze that is used in RVs and contains red propylene glycol. It's ingredients are Water, Propylene Glycol, and Proprietary inhibitors. Do any of you know if this will work the same as what airspirit suggested or can you tell me which glycol it contains? thanks.

[Gooserider]

Many thanks Airspirit (and others)

That is exactly the type of detail I was looking for. I haven't owned a car in 20 odd years, and my bikes are all air-cooled, so coolant technology isn't something I keep up with very much...

Got plenty of local autoparts stores though, and most of them dread my coming in the door since I generally want to find a part for an application that isn't in their parts book NAPA can deal with that pretty well, but it really makes the Autozone kids freak....

I've also got a good idea of where all the local pool supply places are, so sanitizer shouldn't be a problem either.

The Hyperlube sounds like it's mostly just an issue of checking different places to find one that carries it. (There are no Kragen's in this area AFAIK, but there are lots of other chains...)Per the website, it looks like mostly a Left Coast thing, but if I can't find it, then I can at least get it online from them.

Gooserider

[airspirit]

Try the toyota coolant then or go to your local GM dealership. They will definitely have it because of their service department. Be ready to pay a couple dollars more for it there, though.

[neoacid]

Can you tell me if that red gm antifreeze is the Dexacool stuff? Seems everybody that i ask doesn't know exactly what i'm talking about ... and Dexacool is the only red antifreeze that they carry. Just want to make sure that this is the one ... Also, what brand of distilled water do you use. I picked up some the other day from the grocery store cuz i thought it was the closest i could find (it was purified using RO, micron filtration, UV, and ozonation) but it didn't say anything about distillation. After reading more about it, i found out that having been purified in this manner does not also imply that it was steam distilled. From what i gather on the post, this is probably the most important process of them all with concern to my cooling system's well-being.

I'm also having problems finding the hyperlube, and i have already bought some of the water wetter stuff (that was before i found this site ... none of the other sites talked this much about WC, so WW was all i knew of). I saw one person post in another thread that water wetter causes foaming because it is a surfactant, but on their website it says it prevents foaming. Also, since it is a surfactant, it's suppose to reduce surface tension. Here's my theory: The surface tension is reduced because the surfactant helps to weaken the attraction that water molecules inherently have due to their polarity. When air is trapped in water, the water encapsulates it (forms a bubble around it). The water is able to hold this shape around the air because of the attractions between it's molecules. If a surfactant is used to weaken this attraction, then the bubbles should be less stable and have a greater tendency to lose their form so that the air will be released (or does this just mean that the bubbles will compensate by being smaller??) Does this sound right to all of you?? (i'm trying to gauge if WW and hyperlube prevent foaming and loosen surface tension to the same degree)

The other thing i was wondering is if the reason why many of the people using water wetter had the white stringy buildup was because they weren't using the glycol and sanitizer with it? Has anybody used basically the same solution as airspirit but with water wetter instead of hyperlube? Do you still get the buildups and organic growths? Is it possible that the solution went from pink to clear in many people's systems using only disttilled water + watter wetter due to the organic life that survived in it or because it was reacting with the surfaces of their systems by coating it?? This would be bad if it did, b/c it seems to me that any coating of the surfaces inside your system would decrease it's thermal conductivity.

...I'm so confused about what to put in my system. I would put what airspirit recommends if only i could find the glycol and hyperlube he's using. I'll keep searching

[neoacid]

Alright... I called a gm parts supplier and asked them about the antifreeze. They said the type that they put in the escalades is the red Dex-cool. I should be able to get that really easily. Second, found some good steam distilled water (RO, submicron filtration, UV, etc.).

I haven't been able to find a sanitzer of the type that airspirit mentioned yet. I was wondering....Airspirit recommended using a lysol + pinesol solution to clean the system of buildup and organic growth. Would it be okay to add this instead of the sanitizer to the coolant mixture i use? Or would it damage and corrode the pieces inside my system in the long term? or react in some bad way with the other chemicals? or does it loose its biocide properties?

The other thing I am curious to know is if anybody has created the same coolant mixture as airspirit except using water wetter in place of hyperlube? Do you still get the white buildup and how long have you been running that mixture? Is the general consensus that the white buildup is an organic or inorganic (chemical) deposit?

Also, has anybody been able to confirm whether water wetter actually looses its potency as a corrosion inhibitor from being absorbed into the tubes or by reacting with the metals of the system? Seems i remember someone saying the water wetter reacted with the metals to form a protective coatiing from corrosion, which also caused their solution to go clear as it was used up in this reaction. Is this how water wetter works? It seems to me that this would be bad because that protective coating would also be a thermal barrier for heat dissipation. can someone clear this up for me? thanks.

[Since87]

Originally posted by neoacid
It seems to me that this would be bad because that protective coating would also be a thermal barrier for heat dissipation. can someone clear this up for me? thanks.

A one molecule thick layer of corrosion inhibitor probably won't have much impact on cooling because in most cases there is a boundary layer of substantially greater thickness, where the water is flowing very slowly (if at all). Heat has to get through the boundary layer by conduction anyway.

A thicker film buildup (which can occur with WW) is a bigger problem.

However, "bad" is a relative term. Compared to the aluminum top corroding through on a waterblock, how "bad" is slightly reduced heat transfer?

BTW, I don't know if a "good" corrosion inhibitor only produces a one molecule thick film over the metal components. I wish I knew of good in depth information on corrosion inhibitors.

[Since87]

Originally posted by pakman

active ingredients: n-alkyl/dimethyl benzyl, ammonium chlorides 1.125%
n Alkyl dimethyl ethybenzyl ammonium chlorides 1.125%
inert ingredients 97.75%

Chlorine is very undesireable in watercooling systems. (If aluminum is involved anyway.) It is my understanding that chlorine ions can break down the anodization on aluminum and leave the underlying metal vulnerable to corrosion.

[Gooserider]

neoacid: I haven't been able to find a sanitzer of the type that airspirit mentioned yet.

Check your local swimming pool and spa / hot tub supply place, ask for non-chlorine / non bromine sanitizer for your hot tub (you have a REALLY BIG res don't you? )

Gooserider

[neoacid]

when i asked a pool place if they had any clear sanitizer that was non-chlorine/non-bromine, the guy said he had one that was hydrogen-peroxide based. I think i remember somebody saying something about H202 being pretty corrosive. However, the pool guy said this wasn't exactly the same as H202, and I'm sure they wouldn't sell hydrogen peroxide for hot tubs. However, does anybody know if this sanitzer would still exhibit the bad properties of H202 on metals? Anybody heard of this stuff?

Since87:
"A one molecule thick layer of corrosion inhibitor probably won't have much impact on cooling because in most cases there is a boundary layer of substantially greater thickness, where the water is flowing very slowly (if at all). Heat has to get through the boundary layer by conduction anyway.

A thicker film buildup (which can occur with WW) is a bigger problem."

You are right. There is laminar flow in the tubes and near the wall there is a layer of water that is almost stationary. If water wetter does protect by building a protective layer, it is probably more than a few molecules thick. Just the fact that you can see the buildup suggests that it is pretty thick (speaking on a molecular level).

I'm being so persistent about this because I would rather have a corrosion inhibitor that doesn't deposit anything on the surfaces (especially these white WW buildups that i've heard of) but instead does its job by staying in solution. This would allow the maximum heat transfer possible and would be mess free instead of requiring extensive cleaning.

This is why I am thinking I should go with the hyperlube (which I can't find in any auto store except online where i have to purchase 4 bottles for $30!) because i haven't heard of any deposits yet. I've already purchased WW, however. I'm hoping before I purchase some hyperlube I can find somebody who used WW in place of hyperlube along with the other ingredients in airspirit's recipe for a coolant mixture so I can verify whether it leaves those white deposits. If it doesn't, then I'm thinking that maybe the deposits were a result of some type of organism that can only be killed by a strong sanitizer or some type of reaction that only the antifreeze protects against.

Thanks for any feedback and suggestions!

[airspirit]

THAT'S IT! Dex-Cool is the stuff I'm using. I'm suffering no corrosion or buildup from the stuff at all with all of the chems I'm using. I couldn't remember the name, LOL.

The ncnb sanitizer isn't hydrogen peroxide. That pool guy was talking out his arse, or was selling a crappy product. See the above link that someone else posted to order it online.

[BrianW]

All I have used is Water Wetter and distilled water for over 18 months, no buildup, reservoir is clear, and temps have not changed. I have all copper/brass, and silicon hoses.

BrianW

[pakman]

Originally posted by BrianW
and silicon hoses.

BrianW

ah, so you can't see the WW buildup on the hose walls...
next time you take apart your watercooling setup, take a look inside the tubing.

[BrianW]

I have a home made plexi res, and there is ZERO buildup in there. I also took out my Video block about 8 months ago, and had no build up then. The only thing was the blue uv dye had stained the hose. Pretty soon the system will be dismantled as I am almost ready to switch to new case/system. I will update when I do so.

BrianW

[airspirit]

Some people have good luck ... my first setup had no buildup of any kind as well ... and you all know what happened to my second! By and large, WW has been shown to leave deposits. I have no idea why it isn't in yours unless the "gooey" portion of the additive is stuck somewhere else in your loop ... though that seems unlikely.

[ndtinker]

So is this Hyperlube stuff the same product as at www.hyperlube.com ?And if so, which bottle of the stuff is the one to get?

And I always envisioned it as clear - in the picture, it looks red, like Water Wetter.

I asked my local pool & spa people about hyperlube and they looked at me like I was nuts, so I figured it must be more of a car product than a pool one.

[Gooserider]

Gods this new reply editor sucks big time... I can't get quotes to work, can't get link inserts to work, it's really the pits... smilies don't work right either....

ndtinker
So is this Hyperlube stuff the same product as at www.hyperlube.com ?And if so, which bottle of the stuff is the one to get?

And I always envisioned it as clear - in the picture, it looks red, like Water Wetter.

I asked my local pool & spa people about hyperlube and they looked at me like I was nuts, so I figured it must be more of a car product than a pool one.

Actually it's this one... http://www.hyperlube.com/prod_cool.asp (Sorry for the ugly link, this editor doesn't do neat links like the old one does.) You want the 'Super Coolant' stuff, their other products are for use in motor oil. Mail order is expensive mostly because you have to get several bottles of the stuff, but it's supposed to be pretty good.

It's also strictly a car product - I don't know for sure, but I would imagine that it isn't the sort of thing you would want anywhere near a swimming pool or spa.

Gooserider

Hoping for a return of the old version software....