The Perfect watercooling case?

[neoacid]

Well, I dont know exactly what kind of case will fit your needs t00lb0x, but I was looking for a very specifically designed case.
In my opinion, this was the hardest part of setting up a WC system if you aren't going for a monster case b/c it's damn difficult to visualize how everything will fit inside a case and find a case to your specs.

Let me link you to a review for a case that I found just yesterday after about 3 months of searching for the perfect case: Global Win YCC-61F1 Server Case. And here is where i found it for a bargain price.

Here is what I think about those other cases out there and why they didn't work for me:

I wanted a quiet system with 3 120 mm fans. One intake in front to blow over the multiple HDDs, one intake on the side for cooling mobo and vid card, and one exhaust in back, with the radiator mounted to it. (You also automatically have an exhaust with the PS). This configuration gives you positive pressure in your case and lots of air flow but also quiet.

Well, these requirements eliminate all of the CHIEFTEC and ANTEC cases that are so popular with the 5+ 80mm fans (that's gotta be noisy!) and the two removable HDD cages that have one 80mm fan blowing on just one cage. It's also not going to circulate as much air, and you can't mount a 120mm radiator like the Black Ice Extreme 2 (which is probably the best rad after a heater core) unless you mount it in front by removing the lower HDD cage.

Also, I wanted everything to be internal but didn't want things to be crammed in the case with all of my WC equipment. I thought about using a mid tower case that had 120mm fans like the ANTEC SLK3700AMB and placing the pump and reservoir beside the PCI slots underneath the radiator, but this is very cluttered, so that wouldn't work. It seemed that the only thing I could do would be to pick a super tower, and mount this stuff above the PS, but these have many problems IMO.

I personally don't like the super towers that are super tall and skiny. IMHO, they look ugly with 6 external bays of which usually 3 at most are occupied. That's also a waste of space. And call me paranoid, but I feel like I would easily knock this beast over. Oh, and do I have to mention what a pain it would be to carry and move? And... many times the hard drives are located above the power supply, which makes it a pain to reach with the cables when the RAID IDE channel is at the bottom of the mobo. You're also still stuck with using 80mm fans on the back by the mobo. That'll make 4 fans blowing out the back of the case, which destroys your positive pressure and will also make plenty of noise.

The LIAN LI PC-70 was the one case that came the closest to what i wanted functionally while making a few sacrifices, but I just couldn't buy it. Problems: 2 80mms by mobo destroy the cooling and acoustical characteristics as I mentioned earlier; placing 120mm fan in front would be messy because originally occupied by 2 80mm; same with back above the power supply where rad would go; this case is a monster (23" x 23" by 8"!!!); it's freakin expensive and there is no PS or side window (actually, you could get the window for $50 extra on newegg, or DIY, but don't put one of those small 12x12 windows, IMHO, they are tacky).

Oh yeah, and the cubes are nice, but they are just too bulky. They wouldn't fit under or around my desk very well. The best I could do would be to use it as a stool instead of my chair. You also couldn't carry this very well either and they aren't cheap.

And if you read the review that i linked to, you'll see that the case that I suggested has a lot of great characteristics.

[airspirit]

You can fit your cooling in a standard case. If you are really worried about it, learn to cut and mold acrylic and do it that way. Really: any midtower can contain a watercooling system easy, if you plan ahead.

The perfect case, imho, is a nonexistant one with wires and shiz running everywhere ... but that's just me.

[MadHacker]

I personaly was looking into using a YY-0221 Minicube but then stumbled across Addtronics W8500 WTX Tower.
lots of room... Here is a url to a list of reviews on it...
if this isn't enough space then you realy have issues...

[pakman]

the ultimate case for watercooling... great for those occaisional leaks... cardboard just mops it up like a paper towel..



those goofy japanese... lol

[FallOutBoyTonto]

LMAO! I never expected to see a cardboard case! ROFL! Damn, what will they think of next?

[Gooserider]

Hmmm... Perfect varies for different people, but for those looking for a 'Cube case' I really like my AMS CK1100B. (I wrote a review for it, and have submitted it but AFAIK Joe and co. haven't gotten it online yet - maybe one of these days...) IMHO its a better setup than the YY-Cube, with more room, more bays, and a better layout.

Unlike the mountain mess cube, it is rational in fan placement and number, and lets you decide what kind of mods you want to make, as the stock unit is very simple and plain.

It has room for really big rads - I'm using a FedCo 2-342 (9.5" x 6" x 2") that fits beautifully and doesn't cost me any drive bays.

It is HEAVY and heavy duty, so it's not a machine for LAN parties, but it will give you a place to build a super heavy duty server. I got it HERE: Severcase.com

Gooserider

[SuperMichael]

Originally posted by Hellion_Prime
http://www.addtronics.com/cl9240.htm

Woaa that's an awesome case

My favorite case is atm the Yeong Yang 221 but i don't like the airflow on the mobo side of the case.

The mountainmods case is great too, almost the same layout as the Yeong Yang 221 but without it's flaws.

Sadly I won't be able to buy te mountainmods case where I live

[Blackeagle]

I'd say the perfect case is anyone you wish.

Sitting on top of a wind tunnel case.

With care in design the tunnel box can offer several advantages.

1. Holds rad, pump & res outside the case.

2. noise reduction in the form of a wooden case, baffle partitions & sound deadening materials.

3. Keeps case as open as possible for max unrestricted air flow.


If a medium to large case is chossen then it should be quite easy to have very low case temps with the wind tunnel box separate, removing the heat of the rad & pump from your case.

[BrianW]

Whats a wind tunnel case?

BrianW

[JokerCPoC]

I'm using a Antec 1040B case and although I'm not water cooling It as of yet, As I'm still buying the parts and I have to raise about $175.00 still.
Right Now I'm torn between getting a Jigsaw blade and Blue Tape ($6.98) or Exchanging the Window Kit (If I can) for a finished Door with a Large pre-made Window (Charcoal Black - SPX-02 for an Extra $3.01+$3.94=$6.95?) from www.directron.com/

[Boli]

Originally posted by Blackeagle

2. noise reduction in the form of a wooden case, baffle partitions & sound deadening materials.

I would be careful in using wood for a case, there is a reason they use wood in speaker cabinates... they amplify sound.

I would think it'll be better with a thick metal case (2mm) covered with soundproofing. Thin metal tends to vibbrate more.

~ Boli

[Gooserider]

Boli: I would be careful in using wood for a case, there is a reason they use wood in speaker cabinates... they amplify sound.

WRONG!!! Wood does NOT amplify sound, although it CAN be used to form a resonant cavity which does. Wood in reasonable thickness (>1/2" or so) is a pretty good sound barrier, but NOT absorber - sound does not pass well through it, but does bounce off.

Wood is used in speaker cabinets, in combination with many other technologies, to CONTAIN the sound put out by the speakers and direct it in the manner desired. Part of this involves designed in resonances to reflect the sound in a controlled way.

A properly designed wooden case can be a very effective foundation for building a silent PC, however it will probably be larger and heavier than a comparable metal case.

I would think it'll be better with a thick metal case (2mm) covered with soundproofing. Thin metal tends to vibbrate more.

Not necessarily, depends on what kind of sound proofing one uses. It appears to me that you have a lack of knowledge in the department of PC silencing, I would suggest you go spend some time over at "Silent PC Review" and study the subject - Just as Pro-Cooling is good at cooling, they are the experts on PC noise control.

Some study hints:
- look up the difference between sound barrier and sound absorber.
- define Mass-loading, and explain how it is used in a PC, and what it results in.
- explore the different methods of PC noise propogation, describe the best ways to control each one.
- Identify the major PC noise makers, what types of noise each one produces, and how to cure it.

Until you have done so, might I suggest you would look less foolish if you were to attempt teaching BillA how to test radiators and blocks...

Gooserider

[bigben2k]

Maybe a little harsh, but Gooserider is correct.

All I know for sure about soundproofing, is that you have to look at the frequency of the noise. A low frequency can be absorbed by a soft material. A high frequency can be blocked by a solid object.

Now to get the rattle out of my car...

[Boli]

I'm sorry if you thought I was getting at you but I was just pointing out that done incorrectly the entire case could act as a huge resonating chamber. i.e. everything sound being amplied so lets not get caught up on technicalities

Personally I would play it safe with thick metal and thin insulation. but it'll still be interesting to see the result. and more importantly to NOT hear it running.

~ Boli

[dogbait]

Trust those Germans to come up with the the best...

[Gooserider]

bigben2k: Maybe a little harsh, but Gooserider is correct.

Thanks, its nice to see ones genius recognized!

All I know for sure about soundproofing, is that you have to look at the frequency of the noise. A low frequency can be absorbed by a soft material. A high frequency can be blocked by a solid object.

True, though often a combination approach is most effective. Over on Pro-Cooling, the rich folks like 'Accoustipak' (SP?) which comes in kits and is a composite structure noise barrier / sound absorber in one unit.

Us poor ghetto folks have found the best results seem to be achieved by putting down a layer of sound barrier (asphalt roofing tape is popular) which mass loads the case panels (thick or thin metal) to prevent resonance. This is followed by a layer or two of either Melamine foam ceiling tyle material (from McMaster Carr) or heavy carpet underpadding for sound absorbtion.

Now to get the rattle out of my car...

Hmmm... Start by eliminating baby?
---------

Boli: I'm sorry if you thought I was getting at you but I was just pointing out that done incorrectly the entire case could act as a huge resonating chamber. i.e. everything sound being amplied so lets not get caught up on technicalities

Not taking anything personal, but it goes without saying that anything done incorrectly can have bad results (Just look at our government!) However I will INSIST on some level of technical accuracy, as statements made with out technical understanding are VERY likely to have bad results.

Personally I would play it safe with thick metal and thin insulation. but it'll still be interesting to see the result. and more importantly to NOT hear it running. ~ Boli

Well, I wouldn't want to try sleeping in the same room as YOUR experiment - Thick metal can resonate quite nicely, just at a different frequency than thin metal - ever hear a railroad track when the train is coming? And thin sound insulation is about as useful as thin house insulation...

What is needed is resonance resisting panels (ie mass loaded metal, or wood.) enclosing thoroughly decoupled quiet components. If sound absorbing materials are used, thicker is ALWAYS better. (Hint - anyone reccomending Paxmate is either A. Ignorant of alternatives; B. Knows little or nothing about quiet computing, and is trying to BS you; or C. is trying to sell the stuff. (Hopefully with a good deal on the famous NY bridge bundle offer...)

dogbait Trust those Germans to come up with the the best...

Not bad, though I didn't see any real clear places to put the rad and other WC bits. Plus the plumbing would be a bear going between those swinging drive arrays and the top mobo chamber. But if you want drive bays...

Gooserider

[Boli]

Well, I wouldn't want to try sleeping in the same room as YOUR experiment - Thick metal can resonate quite nicely, just at a different frequency than thin metal - ever hear a railroad track when the train is coming? And thin sound insulation is about as useful as thin house insulation...

My experiment is going quite well in fact and I DO sleep in the same room as it. All my fan noise has been eliminated and considering I run 15 fans I think that is an achievement. I suggested thicker metal because it is sturdier and less prone to vibration, even when is does vibrate it is at a lower pitch and I have always thought lower pitches were more preferable to higher ones.

The thin insulation I also suggested would help absorb the sound waves and not cause the thing to chime like a bitch from the hard drives, which is a problem I sometimes experience (depends on air pressure I think).

I have always moved well away from wood as a computer case material though perhaps by fears of using such a material are as unfounded in fact as most superstitions. I know they use wood in resonating chambers (speaker cabinets) and have disregarded the entire idea as preposterous… though if it does indeed work I would be VERY interested to see how it is used.

~ Boli - merely curious

[Gooserider]

My experiment is going quite well in fact and I DO sleep in the same room as it. All my fan noise has been eliminated and considering I run 15 fans I think that is an achievement.

15 fans seems excessive - is it a computer or a hovercraft? I know that I thought I was being excessive because my new system will have 5 fans in it, all to be thermally controlled / undervolted and/or turned off.
My fan controller is possibly the biggest unresolved design issue I have left on the system.

I suggested thicker metal because it is sturdier and less prone to vibration, even when is does vibrate it is at a lower pitch and I have always thought lower pitches were more preferable to higher ones.

True, all else being equal, a thick panel will resonate at a lower frequency than a thick one.

The thin insulation I also suggested would help absorb the sound waves and not cause the thing to chime like a bitch from the hard drives, which is a problem I sometimes experience (depends on air pressure I think).

It isn't air pressure, it is a question of resonant noise coupling... Check out decoupling grommet mounts and drive suspension mounts for how to stop it. It sounds like what you are doing with the thin insulation is accidentally 'mass loading' the panel which kills some resonance. This is a good thing, but if you know what you are doing, you can probably do it more effectively.

I have always moved well away from wood as a computer case material though perhaps by fears of using such a material are as unfounded in fact as most superstitions. I know they use wood in resonating chambers (speaker cabinets) and have disregarded the entire idea as preposterous… though if it does indeed work I would be VERY interested to see how it is used.

Check out SPCR from previous references, they have several articles on a wide range of wood and wood composite board cases.

As mentioned before, wood is used in resonant chambers because it is a good sound BARRIER - noise hits it and bounces back instead of passing through. A resonance chamber is simply a box designed to collect the sounds and re-direct them to an exit in a controlled way.

Line your wooden box with sound absorbent, and it becomes a great muffler, as the noise gets suppressed on its way to the wood, then gets bounced back into the suppressing foam on the way back out for further reduction. As long as there are no straight line, or reflective curved paths for sound to exit on, a wooden box can be very quiet.

However, a quiet wooden box also requires a great deal of attention to thermal management and airflow control to avoid cooking things - the same techniques that control noise tend to restrict airflow, so special attention must be paid to either using cool components, or keeping the airflow sufficient.

Gooserider (building a metal case)

[touser]

I currently use a lian-li pc-70 for my watercooled rig, but for my next system which will be a watercooled dually i am going with the lian-li pc-76. It is very costly but worth it imo.

[Boli]

15 fans seems excessive - is it a computer or a hovercraft? I know that I thought I was being excessive because my new system will have 5 fans in it, all to be thermally controlled / undervolted and/or turned off.
My fan controller is possibly the biggest unresolved design issue I have left on the system.

My philosophy is lots of fans low voltage = better airflow than few high voltage fans. All my 15 fans run at 5v and are perfectly silent... (Even if the 120mm fans need a "push start" to get going). All are places strategically and keep the airflow continuous... I'll be getting a 16th soon but that is where I draw the line ;P.

I use a fan controller and indeed all fans are routed through it in six SETS of fans. the only thing I have noticed is the controller gets rather warm due to the resistance flowing through it but since they have been going non stop for over a week I think it's fine.

All in all my noise DOES NOT come from the fans... I can switch them all off and it is the same noise level... though if I REALLY want to I can switch them all up to full and yes: It DOES make a noise ;P.

It isn't air pressure, it is a question of resonant noise coupling... Check out decoupling grommet mounts and drive suspension mounts for how to stop it. It sounds like what you are doing with the thin insulation is accidentally 'mass loading' the panel which kills some resonance. This is a good thing, but if you know what you are doing, you can probably do it more effectively.

I haven't gotten around to insulating my case yet, but I'm pretty sure that the noise (mainly from the Hard Drives) is not in the coupling. It comes from the worn out motor and the high-pitched drone is the result of this. Answer: I need a new hard drive.

I always presumed it was the air pressure because only at certain times of day or when it is raining does the noise builds up...I just find it amusing now. Sometimes my computer is just louder than normal *shrugs*.

Gooserider (building a metal case)

*Laughs*

Good luck with your new case, I'll check out wooden ones as interest pieces but I'll still to metal too.

~ Boli

[Gooserider]

My philosophy is lots of fans low voltage = better airflow than few high voltage fans. All my 15 fans run at 5v and are perfectly silent... (Even if the 120mm fans need a "push start" to get going). All are places strategically and keep the airflow continuous... I'll be getting a 16th soon but that is where I draw the line

I'm not trying to criticize you for what is working for you, but the experience of the SPCR folks is that a few STRATEGICALLY LOCATED fans at very low voltages makes less noise than a lot of fans at low voltages...

They spend a great deal of effort on planning out their airflows and doing ducting etc. so as to get the most cooling from the least air, and using as few low voltage fans (carefully chosen for being low noise to begin with) as possible to move that air. Most of them use slightly more than 5 volts, but only enough to ensure 100% reliable startup w/o needing a 'kickstart'. Some also use controllers that provide a 'hot start' function that delivers full voltage to the fans for typically about ~2 seconds so as to ensure that they get started before dropping back to the running voltage. Typical seems to be around 3-5 fans, including the HSF and PSU.

I haven't gotten around to insulating my case yet, but I'm pretty sure that the noise (mainly from the Hard Drives) is not in the coupling. It comes from the worn out motor and the high-pitched drone is the result of this. Answer: I need a new hard drive.

Could be, but often times hard drive noise is largely drive vibration / noise that is transmitted to a case panel that resonates in turn and amplifies the sound.
The simplest test is to remove the drive from the system and hold it in your hand, or rest it on a non-vibrating surface (a book for instance) and power it up - if the noise is less, then you have a coupling problem.

Note that decoupling is FAR more effective than case insulation - the closer to the source you control a sound the more effective the control is. Decoupling stops the noise before it has a chance to spread. I did a minimal decoupling step on my current box and found it made a great deal of difference. I bowed the sides of my 3.5" drive cage out, and stuffed a peice of cut up mouse pad in between the each side of the cage and the drive. Only took a few minutes and made a big reduction in the noise level.

I always presumed it was the air pressure because only at certain times of day or when it is raining does the noise builds up...I just find it amusing now. Sometimes my computer is just louder than normal *shrugs*

You may be right - this is a bit speculative, but at least rain is associated with low pressure, and that may cause noise to be transmit through the air better, or your hearing to be more responsive to it.

Good luck with your new case, I'll check out wooden ones as interest pieces but I'll still to metal too.

Thanks. Remember that I was never saying you had to build a case out of wood (frankly the idea doesn't appeal to me that much either), just that you shouldn't say wood isn't a potentially good case material...

Gooserider

[Boli]

On Fans

I'm not trying to criticize you for what is working for you, but the experience of the SPCR folks is that a few STRATEGICALLY LOCATED fans at very low voltages makes less noise than a lot of fans at low voltages...

They spend a great deal of effort on planning out their airflows and doing ducting etc. so as to get the most cooling from the least air, and using as few low voltage fans (carefully chosen for being low noise to begin with) as possible to move that air. Most of them use slightly more than 5 volts, but only enough to ensure 100% reliable startup w/o needing a 'kickstart'. Some also use controllers that provide a 'hot start' function that delivers full voltage to the fans for typically about ~2 seconds so as to ensure that they get started before dropping back to the running voltage. Typical seems to be around 3-5 fans, including the HSF and PSU.

I run mine through a fan controller and use the "full power" to kick start it like you said. If I forget the motor actually hums, I don't know exactly what is happening electronically but it does help me remember to quickly flip the switch to give it a boost in voltage to get things going, the noise then vanishes as soon as I turn it back to 5v.

I can understand the reasoning behind it all ducting and less fans, but I have gone mainly for looks as well as cooling. Asthectically there doesn't seem to be too many fans, for the eye it is just enough. But all my fans serve a purpose.

See the picy of my case... airflow-wise the red fan will become useless save for adding additional air preasure to the case later but it fits asthectically, right now though it serves an important role of suppling the top radiatory fans with cool air.

The blue fans aren't even switched on at the moment as there seems no need, but they will serve perhaps the greatest purpose in the end as I'll be slinging a 120mm rad under the front fan and ducting a "air tunnel" to one of the 5 1/4" bays. separating it from the rest of the case. The back fan will then take over the job of suppliing the top radiatory fans at the back as it is far better placed.

And in case you are interested the bottom fan sits right over my Graphics card with a huge Zalaman Heatpipe/Heatsink one. And the middle fan sitts directtly above the Northbridge/RAM area on my motherboard.

~ Boli

[Boli]

I Ramble too much

Could be, but often times hard drive noise is largely drive vibration / noise that is transmitted to a case panel that resonates in turn and amplifies the sound.
The simplest test is to remove the drive from the system and hold it in your hand, or rest it on a non-vibrating surface (a book for instance) and power it up - if the noise is less, then you have a coupling problem.

Note that decoupling is FAR more effective than case insulation - the closer to the source you control a sound the more effective the control is. Decoupling stops the noise before it has a chance to spread. I did a minimal decoupling step on my current box and found it made a great deal of difference. I bowed the sides of my 3.5" drive cage out, and stuffed a peice of cut up mouse pad in between the each side of the cage and the drive. Only took a few minutes and made a big reduction in the noise level.

I've checked into that and run my computer holding my HDs in my hands to see if there is any difference. I have tried them in many places in my case open and closed and have come to the conclusion that yes the motors are indeed making most of the noise. They were never bought as silent HDs but the fastest cheapest ones I could get at the time. Then I didn't care as I didn't sleep in the same room as it. Now obviously I am, and hopefully these noisy things will be regulgated to a server case soon .

Thanks. Remember that I was never saying you had to build a case out of wood (frankly the idea doesn't appeal to me that much either), just that you shouldn't say wood isn't a potentially good case material...
.

*shrugs* I'm a simple man I don't want a wooden case because I associate wood with speakers and rumbling TVs (Who ever decided that wood on TVs was a good idea shoud be shot). I take it you have similar reservations.

Though it is a habit with me that if I see a certain subject raised e.g. build a case out of wood, and there is a point I can equate to out of my own personal experiance that could be relavent and hasn't yet been raised, I will voice it, as well as give a possible aternative to open up the debate. I have always been taught that if you disagree or have misgivings about something ALLWAYS offer an alternative after making your feelings clear; If you don't it is not a debate but an arguement.

So in conclusion like I said at the beginning before things got sidetracked:

I would be careful in using wood for a case, you don't want the thing acting like a huge resonating chamber (like cabinate speakers for instance). Personally I would go with a stiff metal case with insulation to help dampen the noise but it'll be interesting to see the result of a wooden case.

~ Boli