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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 08-01-2004, 10:13 PM   #1
muffy
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simple galvanic protection

when using copper water blocks and Aluminium radiators couldn't i simply paint the inside of the radiator to prevent galvanic Corrosion. before you flame me for painting it yes i know this would insulate the radiator abit. my defence to this is my two black ice radiators are painted on the out side at least which must decrease there effectiveness.

what to you guys think? it's a cheap ripoff of anodising i guess.
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Unread 08-01-2004, 10:47 PM   #2
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i still think ur gonna get flamed. not by me tho.

first, how would u get inside the radiator and paint it? that means somehow taking it apart, paint it, and then put it back together in working condition. There is no way with the viscosity of paint that it can even flow into a radiator through the channels and paint it.

second, the outside of ur black ice is painted where it doesnt need cooling. its painted on the side metal cover that hwlabs puts around for looks or protection, whatever. The fins however are not painted. and even if they were painted only a little bit of the top layer would be painted. And this is being all cooled by air. The inside however needs to be left alone because it is responsible for absorbing the heat from the water. i dont know the exact numbers on the thermal capability of paint but i can assure its not good. ur entire loop would just flow around and around generating more heat from pump and the cpu while not being able to release any heat.

Last edited by sn_85; 08-01-2004 at 10:53 PM.
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Unread 08-01-2004, 10:55 PM   #3
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well it's simple to paint the inside of it just fill the radiator up with paint then empty it . if you can fill it with water why cant you fill it with paint. i personally dont see to much difference to painting the inside or out. painting it is effectively insulating it if you insulate the out side of it or the inside of it your still putting a layer of insulation over it .ps both my black ice extreem radiators are totally painted on the out side . well that i can see. painting will effect the flow of it though .
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Unread 08-01-2004, 11:15 PM   #4
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why dont buy a can of paint and buy a gallon of water. pour down some slope and see which gets to the bottom faster. paint is thicker and more viscous then water. just think a/b that and follow the process in ur mind on painting that radiator.

what u see painted is the sides of hte heatercore and the tanks. not responsible for being cooled by a fan. The fins are responsible for that. The outside is not totally insulated. The very few front fins may be painted just for looks. but inside where the air flows through there are hundreds, maybe a thousand folding fins that maximize surface area that arent painted.

and since u believe ur black ice is fully insulated from any type of heat transfer, do u have a fan on it? of course u do. whats really the point in the fan if u say ur black ice is totally insulated?
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Unread 08-01-2004, 11:31 PM   #5
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obviously the paint does not totally insulate the radiator totally other wise like, what your getting at the radiator will not work at all. but any paint should insulate or decrease the efficiency of the radiator to a small degree. i dont see that the thickness or viscosity of the paint has anything to do with weather or not you can fill the radiator up with paint or not. you can also ad thinners to the paint if you want too, though it wont ever be as runny as water.
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Unread 08-01-2004, 11:38 PM   #6
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I'm going to take a shot at this... using a thick milkshake and water as an example..

Take two identical straws, one in the water and one in the milkshake. Now take a swig from both. Notice the amount of effort it takes to pull a milkshake through the exact same straw as it took for water? Now equate the milkshake being paint and the water being, well, water.

Now lets turn it all upside down. Put a lid on both cups, straws in both.. turn em upside down.. poke a hole in the top for air to enter the cup... which will drain out faster? Water. Why? Because the viscosity of the milkshake prevents any decent amount of flow through the straw.

That's exactly what he's trying to get to you about your idea of filling up the radiator with paint.. it ain't gonna work due to it's viscosity.. and anyway.. it's probably a dual pass, so you'd have to have something to *force* it through to get the entire radiator filled. Got a pump you're willing to sacrifice for the efforts of painting the interior?

Seriously, just save yourself the cost and effort and buy some water wetter or anit-freeze and add it to your cooling loop. It's just better in the long run.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muffy
obviously the paint does not totally insulate the radiator totally other wise like, what your getting at the radiator will not work at all. but any paint should insulate or decrease the efficiency of the radiator to a small degree. i dont see that the thickness or viscosity of the paint has anything to do with weather or not you can fill the radiator up with paint or not. you can also ad thinners to the paint if you want too, though it wont ever be as runny as water.
Edit: Gah.. my spelling bites tonight.
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Unread 08-01-2004, 11:49 PM   #7
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for the record the radiator is a single pass so gravity should be fine, all paint runs. im not sure if i trust anit-freeze . my last Aluminium and copper sytem didn't last long at all . not that i had anti-freeze in the water
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Unread 08-01-2004, 11:51 PM   #8
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Why are you using an Al radiator? Cu radiators are cheap + plentiful.
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Unread 08-02-2004, 12:04 AM   #9
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Its not like he's using paint for a coolant, its just a matter of running the paint through the radiator once, and letting it it empty and then dry.
(you could even make two coats to ensure proper coverage)

Most paints sorta shrink as they dry, so it shouldn't reduce the water flow too much, anyway.
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Unread 08-02-2004, 12:09 AM   #10
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Somehow, I don't think paint was meant to be ran down tiny passages, even thinned out to the point where it's not paint. Hell, why is it so hard at times to get the air outta the radiator if it's so easy to get water into it? ).

But hey, don't let us sway you from trying to paint the inside of your radiator. When the paint dries and you clog it up because it's too thick and won't flow through it, be my guest. You obviously can afford another radiator if you're willing to do so. I wish you the best of luck in your endavour.
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Unread 08-02-2004, 12:26 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muffy
for the record the radiator is a single pass so gravity should be fine, all paint runs. im not sure if i trust anit-freeze . my last Aluminium and copper sytem didn't last long at all . not that i had anti-freeze in the water

So you didn't have antifreeze in it

and you're reluctant to try it?

jesus dude, just use freaken anti-freeze, its not brain surgery...
Guess what, im from NZ too, and our antifreeze works just the same!

Just go get a heatercore for like 20$, and avoid the issue altogether...

Last edited by Etacovda; 08-02-2004 at 12:33 AM.
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Unread 08-02-2004, 12:32 AM   #12
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u dont trust antifreeze? apparently u need it for ur car, yes i know it has another use, but its not good enough for ur computer? companies like penzoil and prestone dont hire chemist to come up with antrifreeze just for the hell of it and not work. or how about using all copper components. make it easy
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Unread 08-02-2004, 01:31 AM   #13
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Just electrically isolate the radiator or waterblock from each other. This will eliminate the need for painting the inside. Electrical isolation of the two metals will eliminate the metallic path (one part needed for a reaction to occur between the two). Without this path, there won't be any issues between the Al rad and Cu block. In most cases I am willing to bet that the waterblock is electrically isolated from the case. With a mobo removed from the case, I find no electrical path to any of the mounting points. This however may not always be the case depending on how you secure the WB to the mobo. To be sure the block is isolated check the resistivity between the water block and the case. If there is no electrical connection, their is no metallic path and the potential for a problem between the two metals is eliminated.

Also, your idea for internally coating the rad is not a bad one. This is done in all sorts of places. They either pump or blow a mixture through piping. I have heard of this being done with concrete to internally line irrigation piping. But to do that for a rad might be overkill, and as someone mentioned reduce heat transfer.
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Last edited by Titan151; 08-02-2004 at 02:17 AM.
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Unread 08-02-2004, 03:28 AM   #14
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Not that I would try it, but there is an easier way yet if he is determined to use an aluminum rad. Why not the sacrificail anode like aluminum boat motors use in a salt water enviornment? I believe magnesium was the culprit to use the material to use to protect aluminum in a corroisve enviorment. At some point in time, the magensium anode will be completely gone and need to be replaced. Personally, I would just stick with the all copper rad in the first place.
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Unread 08-02-2004, 09:03 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muffy
when using copper water blocks and Aluminium radiators couldn't i simply paint the inside of the radiator to prevent galvanic Corrosion. before you flame me for painting it yes i know this would insulate the radiator abit. my defence to this is my two black ice radiators are painted on the out side at least which must decrease there effectiveness.

what to you guys think? it's a cheap ripoff of anodising i guess.

No way! Do not run paint through the radiator. I work at a radiator shop and we build rads all day long. First off, the paint will plug up the tiny tubes running through the core. (99.9% sure of it). Second of all, you don't need to insolate the inside of the radiator to keep it from galvanic corrosion. Use distilled water, an anti-algae additive and a little bit of Anti-freeze.

Chemists developed anti-freeze for cars to prevent the coolant from freezing. What people don't know is that they also developed it to lubricate the system.
When you touch straight anti-freeze with your fingers it feels oily. It doesn't feel like water.

Another thing is if your system is corroding up fast, (white gunk through the system) You may have an electrolis problem. Cars have this problem too, because water is an electrical conductor so you have to keep it grounded.
How electrical current is moving through your system is beyond me, (maybe through the pump), but try putting a ground from your radiator to your case.

DON'T put paint through the inside of your radiator. You'll kick yourself in the ass for doing it.
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Unread 08-02-2004, 09:24 AM   #16
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If you're that bothered about coating your radiator get it anodized properly - it'll be less expensive in the long run.

Personally I'd just use an anti-corrosive agent like anti-freeze.
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Unread 08-02-2004, 09:32 AM   #17
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If you don't want to use anti-freeze (yes, adding glycol reduces your coolant's thermal capacity - and may impact the way it works with your block, depending on the block) why not just use an anti-corrosion package only?
You're in NZ, so I can't recommend something that's available locally - but I can suggest you go to somewhere where there are car or bike racers - here in the US glycol is banned from motors on the track because it's so slippery, so there are additive packages just for racers. I would expect the same situation for NZ.
Here in the states there's Valvoline Racing Super Coolant (sometimes called Zerex Racing Super coolant as Valvoline bought Zerex some while back but they're only recently trying to make that brand name disappear)
I've looked at the Valvoline NZ web site - and it doesn't look like they bring this product in. So maybe ask the racers what they are using.

All that aside, why are you mixing alu and copper in a system when you don't have to? Yes, Alu is lighter (and so is very interesting to racer types), but if you aren't carrying this PC in a race, why care about radiator weight?
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Unread 08-02-2004, 09:59 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Titan151
Just electrically isolate the radiator or waterblock from each other. This will eliminate the need for painting the inside. Electrical isolation of the two metals will eliminate the metallic path (one part needed for a reaction to occur between the two). Without this path, there won't be any issues between the Al rad and Cu block. In most cases I am willing to bet that the waterblock is electrically isolated from the case. With a mobo removed from the case, I find no electrical path to any of the mounting points. This however may not always be the case depending on how you secure the WB to the mobo. To be sure the block is isolated check the resistivity between the water block and the case. If there is no electrical connection, their is no metallic path and the potential for a problem between the two metals is eliminated.

Also, your idea for internally coating the rad is not a bad one. This is done in all sorts of places. They either pump or blow a mixture through piping. I have heard of this being done with concrete to internally line irrigation piping. But to do that for a rad might be overkill, and as someone mentioned reduce heat transfer.
ck your sig
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Unread 08-02-2004, 10:04 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkoure
All that aside, why are you mixing alu and copper in a system when you don't have to? Yes, Alu is lighter (and so is very interesting to racer types), but if you aren't carrying this PC in a race, why care about radiator weight?
LOL. I'm just picturing the first LAN PARTY 10Km race
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Unread 08-02-2004, 02:20 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
ck your sig
Ha,

You’re joking right.

Just in case you aren't here is a refresher course from a Jr. High science class.

- Electrochemical corrosion involves the transfer of electrons across a metal/electrolyte interface. Corrosion occurs within a corrosion cell. A corrosion cell consists of four parts.

Anode
Cathode
Electrolyte
Metallic Path

Here is a pic to make this easier. I have even named several items. If there is no metallic path there will be no corrosion cell between the Cu block and Al rad. As for a corrosion cell within the rad, the same exact info applies. Except now the anode and cathode are two sections of the Aluminum that no longer share the same potential. This sets up a potential imbalance between the two sections that creates current flow, which leads to corrosion. Since the electrolyte in this case is relatively high in resistivity, the amount of current flow will be minimized.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg Basic Cell applied.JPG (17.2 KB, 112 views)
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Unread 08-02-2004, 03:00 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Titan151
Ha,

You’re joking right.

Just in case you aren't here is a refresher course from a Jr. High science class.

- Electrochemical corrosion involves the transfer of electrons across a metal/electrolyte interface. Corrosion occurs within a corrosion cell. A corrosion cell consists of four parts.

Anode
Cathode
Electrolyte
Metallic Path

Here is a pic to make this easier. I have even named several items. If there is no metallic path there will be no corrosion cell between the Cu block and Al rad. As for a corrosion cell within the rad, the same exact info applies. Except now the anode and cathode are two sections of the Aluminum that no longer share the same potential. This sets up a potential imbalance between the two sections that creates current flow, which leads to corrosion. Since the electrolyte in this case is relatively high in resistivity, the amount of current flow will be minimized.

Correcto-mundo, my dear watson! I don't think everybody in this forum was awake for Junior High Science class. Ooooohhhhh, somebody stop me!
No, seriously that's what I was saying on the thread above...........without the pictures..........and the metallic path.............and um...........the current flow thing.
Yeah.
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Unread 08-02-2004, 03:02 PM   #22
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nope, cell corrosion WILL eat your lunch
'metallic path' NOT required

dig deeper
Titan151
this is one of the oldest on-going topics in WCing
and you have it a bit wrong, cell corrosion induces failures, not galvanic (for WCing)

EDIT: forgot to add
ck your sig, LOL
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Unread 08-02-2004, 05:26 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
nope, cell corrosion WILL eat your lunch
'metallic path' NOT required

dig deeper
Titan151
this is one of the oldest on-going topics in WCing
and you have it a bit wrong, cell corrosion induces failures, not galvanic (for WCing)

EDIT: forgot to add
ck your sig, LOL
This issue is not that complex. First galvanic corrosion is cell corrosion. The first image in the diagram is a basic corrosion cell. It applies to galvanic (dissimilar metals corrosion) as well as this "eat your lunch corrosion" you talk about. These are not two different things. The only thing changing is the two components that make up the anode and the cathode.

A cell will take place within the surface of a metal composed of the same material. For example steel will corrode when a portion of it becomes more anodic in reference to the rest of the area. That sets up a cell with those sections of the steel that are more cathodic. Slowly, this anodic area is oxidized resulting in metal loss. This is often how pitting will result in a sheet of steel. Second, I never claimed that galvanic corrosion was a real problem in water cooling. I have simply pointed out that if there is no metallic path between the waterblock and rad there will be no corrosion cell between the two. As for a corrosion cell within the Al rad, the metallic path cannot be eliminated. That said the biggest thing that can be done is to increase the resistivty of the electrolyte. This is why so many people use DI or DW water. If this alone does not solve the problem that is found there are many other methods of slowing the corrosion rate. As someone suggested, the use of Cathodic protection would actually work fairly well in some circumstances. At least a lot better then trying to coat the inside of the rad.

hmmm, sorry I think I Hijacked this post trying to defend Basic Science from the Bill A.


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Unread 08-02-2004, 05:37 PM   #24
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I'll not debate the terminology, lots of definitions apout
'galvanic' corrosion is loosely used, and not a factor in WCing

cell corrosion is more specific as to the mechanisim, and is the cause of all (?) WCing problems
and no, DI or DW water will NOT solve the problem, repeat NOT
(why suggest such ?)
use of a corrosion inhibitor with alu is always recommended

so you recommended a solution not relevant to the problem ?
"I never claimed that galvanic corrosion was a real problem in water cooling. I have simply pointed out that if there is no metallic path between the waterblock and rad there will be no corrosion cell between the two."

ok, you win
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Unread 08-02-2004, 06:07 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
I'll not debate the terminology, lots of definitions apout
'galvanic' corrosion is loosely used, and not a factor in WCing

cell corrosion is more specific as to the mechanisim, and is the cause of all (?) WCing problems
and no, DI or DW water will NOT solve the problem, repeat NOT
(why suggest such ?)
use of a corrosion inhibitor with alu is always recommended

so you recommended a solution not relevant to the problem ?
"I never claimed that galvanic corrosion was a real problem in water cooling. I have simply pointed out that if there is no metallic path between the waterblock and rad there will be no corrosion cell between the two."

ok, you win
Bahhhhhh,

No DI/DW will not stop corrosion, but it will help to minimize it. High resistivity electrolyte will slow the e-chem process.

Second, Galvanic or disimiler metal corrosion (al rad and CU block) may be a problem within some peoples WC systems. In most cases there won't be a metallic path so their will be no need for concern.

Third, if a specific component is found to have problems there are a number of solutions. For example. A piece of thin zinc ribbon submerged in part of the WC loop (say the res or T line) then connected to the object that is to be protected (the Al rad) would likely provide enough Cathodic Protection to reduce the corrosion rate to a crawl. As many people know this is often done on boats. It is also used for protecting burried pipelines, underground storage tanks, sheet pile walls, H piles, and industrial water cooling applications.

bill, bill, bill, billy boy...you is my hero!

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