condensation protection on pipes

LopeDogg · 11-23-2004, 09:36 AM

is there any foolproof way to insulate pipes so that condensation doesnt form on them when running -10 or -20C degree water through the pipes?

is there any way to work out what thickness of various insulators would be needed? such as silicone or closed cell foam?

killernoodle · 11-23-2004, 10:38 AM

The only foolproof way is to have air with 0 humidity. They sell pipe insulation stuff at lowes, that should be pretty good for these "pipes".

redleader · 11-23-2004, 12:27 PM

Standard pipe insulation from a hardware store should keep you dry (and cold) well below -10 or 20. Just don't leave anything exposed to air.

Kobuchi · 11-23-2004, 01:22 PM

The objective here is not so much to thermally insulate the pipes as it is to keep surfaces conducting dew point (whatever that is in your climate) buried and sealed behind an impervious vapour barrier. Hardware store insulation will accomplish the former. A final wrapping with clear packing tape - or hideous, professional vapour barrier "seam tape" - will stop moisture from leaking through. If done properly, your completed work will look terrible.

2Busy · 11-23-2004, 05:48 PM

I believe there is a difference in the insulation you get at a hardware store for pipe insulation vs what is used in the HVAC trade. The latter appears to be more of a closed cell foam vs what the hardware stores sell to insulate your water pipes with. It may still work, but not as well. The closed cell stuff if memory serves correctly is not slpit down the side like the water pipe insulation. It is designed to slide on before you make up your last joint.

Kobuchi · 11-24-2004, 03:08 AM

By "hardware store" I had several products in mind: adhesive wrap-on fibreglass & foil (integral seam tape, bulky, ugly), bubble-cell foil (ineffective but looks space-age), and the pool noodles (neat, until you deal with the gaps and sharp bends). The pool noodles (closed cell foam tubes) around here are scored so they can be put on either way.

Anyway, it's all fluff essentially and puffin down would serve as well. The primary thing is to form an airtight barrier so atmospheric moisture can't migrate to the cold pipes. That's best accomplished with lots of sticky tape.

A snackfood packet of silica gel in there wouldn't hurt.

2Busy · 11-24-2004, 04:51 AM

I work in the wholesale electrical parts trade. About 10 years we sold some kind of goop in a tube that the name escapes me. At any rate, you put in in conduit with wire. If moisture started coming up the conduit, this stuff would actually migrate towards the moisture and end up encapsualting it. Supposed to key moisture out of junction boxes outside etc. They demonstrated this stuff with 3/4 inch id acrylic tube with wires in it. They would set one end down in a glass of water for a minute or so and take it out and lay it horizontal. It moved too slow to see it happen, but if you marked where the gel was in the tube and then went back in an hour, you could readily see it had moved towards the wet end.

Kobuchi · 11-24-2004, 01:53 PM

Creepy stuff. So it was a wire pulling lubricant that transforms into a moisture clotter? I've got to check this out.

redleader · 11-24-2004, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

The objective here is not so much to thermally insulate the pipes as it is to keep surfaces conducting dew point (whatever that is in your climate) buried and sealed behind an impervious vapour barrier. Hardware store insulation will accomplish the former. A final wrapping with clear packing tape - or hideous, professional vapour barrier "seam tape" - will stop moisture from leaking through. If done properly, your completed work will look terrible.

Is there really a practical difference? If you're effectively insulateing your pipes, you will keep the temps above dew point on all exposed surfaces.

Kobuchi · 11-25-2004, 01:18 AM

Sure there's a difference. One could thickly bind fibreglass fluff around a pipe and this would be great thermal insulation, but that wouldn't slow condensation on the pipe. Segments of foam tube won't help either if there are tiny gaps between the segments. Water vapour migrates differently than heat, so we block it differently.

To prevent condensation we need to establish an airtight envelope, which can't reach dew point on any of its surface.

LopeDogg · 11-25-2004, 05:06 PM

awesome replies there kobuchi, thanks
great idea with the tape.
i was kind of worried about how its gonna look, but -20 degree temps makes up for it i guess *g*

im thinking some silicone bath sealant on the pipe, some closed cell pipe insulator stuff shoved onto there, and between where the ends of the pipe insulator meet, then tape it up...

basically use silicone between the waterblock/pipe, and the insulation to displace any air that might want to get trapped there... what do u think?

is there any way to tell beforehand if the silicone is going to eat my copper waterblocks or steel jubilee clips? someone said something about some sort of acid that comes from the silicone while it cures. they said something about it probably having that acid stuff if it smells really vile.

well, ive got this red coloured high temprature silicone RTV gasket sealant, for car radiators and stuff, which i use on my pipes between the copper and the PVC (which gets clamped with a jubilee clip) that stuff stinks bad, but (doesnt eat my waterblocks)

hehe
but basically ill need to drown my gfx card and probably mobo aswell, with some silicone sealant, and it obviously musnt eat stuff.

LopeDogg · 11-25-2004, 05:10 PM

also, im kind of inclined to just coat my motherboard, wherever possible with some insulating stuff, so if water did drip on it, it wouldnt matter, basically just leaving slots and connectors and stuff open, only.

Kobuchi · 11-26-2004, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LopeDogg

silicone between the waterblock/pipe, and the insulation to displace any air that might want to get trapped there... what do u think?

The silicone will get nearly as cold as the pipe though, so you're back to square one.

Alternative: Great Stuff. Just use with caution as the foam expands a lot and forcefully before curing hard in a few minutes.

2Busy · 11-26-2004, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

Creepy stuff. So it was a wire pulling lubricant that transforms into a moisture clotter? I've got to check this out.

Not really a pulling lube. It was designed to be squirted in after the runs were pulled, like just before a junction box or device. The mfg reccomended putting like a 2 to 3 inch wad of this stuff in around the wires. I will see if I can remember the name of it. The same company also offered silica dessicant packs as part of their offering for moisture control in control panels.

tnv · 11-26-2004, 08:57 AM

This just my solution, but it works for me. I work in the marine electronics and comm. industry, and this is what we do. I've done it to the last three comps. I've built, and it works great...with zero water.
We use small neoprene closed foam a/c insulation (not split type, the slide over type.) Use the a/c waterproof tape that's available where they sell the foam. Then add a unit (trade name "golden rod") that is a very small heater rod that is used to keep the moisture lever to near zero in the electronics boxes. They cost about $20.00 U.S. They run 24/7, draw about 4-6 watts and can be unplugged when not in use if you want. They case temp. is a little higher than room temp., but that's why I water cool the comps. anyways, so it makes no difference. They usually last for four or five years, and require no upkeep.
Well, that's my solution to the water problem. Thanks

LopeDogg · 11-27-2004, 08:16 AM

i read about the golden rod...
seems to me like its meant to keep the temprature inside an enclosure slightly warmer than the outside temp which prevents the walls (and other stuff in the enclosure) from getting below dew point, preventing condensation. the problem here is the pipes are providing the coldness

i guess the golden rod could help by heating the outer layer of the insulation on the pipes above dew point...

im starting to think that watercooling with such cold water is a waste of time. all that really needs overclocking is the graphics card, so i should just slap a 226W peltier directly on my 6800GT

hopefully ill see a nice extreme overclocking example with the 6800GT before i get around to it to see if its worthwhile.

room temp cooling is so much simpler heheh.

11-23-2004, 09:36 AM	#1
LopeDogg Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Africa Posts: 69	condensation protection on pipes is there any foolproof way to insulate pipes so that condensation doesnt form on them when running -10 or -20C degree water through the pipes? is there any way to work out what thickness of various insulators would be needed? such as silicone or closed cell foam?

11-23-2004, 10:38 AM	#2
killernoodle Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1,014	The only foolproof way is to have air with 0 humidity. They sell pipe insulation stuff at lowes, that should be pretty good for these "pipes". __________________ I have a nice computer.

11-25-2004, 05:06 PM	#11
LopeDogg Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Africa Posts: 69	insulation awesome replies there kobuchi, thanks great idea with the tape. i was kind of worried about how its gonna look, but -20 degree temps makes up for it i guess g im thinking some silicone bath sealant on the pipe, some closed cell pipe insulator stuff shoved onto there, and between where the ends of the pipe insulator meet, then tape it up... basically use silicone between the waterblock/pipe, and the insulation to displace any air that might want to get trapped there... what do u think? is there any way to tell beforehand if the silicone is going to eat my copper waterblocks or steel jubilee clips? someone said something about some sort of acid that comes from the silicone while it cures. they said something about it probably having that acid stuff if it smells really vile. well, ive got this red coloured high temprature silicone RTV gasket sealant, for car radiators and stuff, which i use on my pipes between the copper and the PVC (which gets clamped with a jubilee clip) that stuff stinks bad, but (doesnt eat my waterblocks) hehe but basically ill need to drown my gfx card and probably mobo aswell, with some silicone sealant, and it obviously musnt eat stuff.

11-25-2004, 05:10 PM	#12
LopeDogg Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Africa Posts: 69	... also, im kind of inclined to just coat my motherboard, wherever possible with some insulating stuff, so if water did drip on it, it wouldnt matter, basically just leaving slots and connectors and stuff open, only.

11-26-2004, 08:57 AM	#15
tnv Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: minn., U.S.A. Posts: 9	tnv This just my solution, but it works for me. I work in the marine electronics and comm. industry, and this is what we do. I've done it to the last three comps. I've built, and it works great...with zero water. We use small neoprene closed foam a/c insulation (not split type, the slide over type.) Use the a/c waterproof tape that's available where they sell the foam. Then add a unit (trade name "golden rod") that is a very small heater rod that is used to keep the moisture lever to near zero in the electronics boxes. They cost about $20.00 U.S. They run 24/7, draw about 4-6 watts and can be unplugged when not in use if you want. They case temp. is a little higher than room temp., but that's why I water cool the comps. anyways, so it makes no difference. They usually last for four or five years, and require no upkeep. Well, that's my solution to the water problem. Thanks

11-23-2004, 12:27 PM	#3
redleader Thermophile Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: The deserts of Tucson, Az Posts: 1,264	Standard pipe insulation from a hardware store should keep you dry (and cold) well below -10 or 20. Just don't leave anything exposed to air.

11-23-2004, 01:22 PM	#4
Kobuchi Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: BC, Canada Posts: 313	The objective here is not so much to thermally insulate the pipes as it is to keep surfaces conducting dew point (whatever that is in your climate) buried and sealed behind an impervious vapour barrier. Hardware store insulation will accomplish the former. A final wrapping with clear packing tape - or hideous, professional vapour barrier "seam tape" - will stop moisture from leaking through. If done properly, your completed work will look terrible.

11-23-2004, 05:48 PM	#5
2Busy Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 62	I believe there is a difference in the insulation you get at a hardware store for pipe insulation vs what is used in the HVAC trade. The latter appears to be more of a closed cell foam vs what the hardware stores sell to insulate your water pipes with. It may still work, but not as well. The closed cell stuff if memory serves correctly is not slpit down the side like the water pipe insulation. It is designed to slide on before you make up your last joint.

11-24-2004, 03:08 AM	#6
Kobuchi Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: BC, Canada Posts: 313	By "hardware store" I had several products in mind: adhesive wrap-on fibreglass & foil (integral seam tape, bulky, ugly), bubble-cell foil (ineffective but looks space-age), and the pool noodles (neat, until you deal with the gaps and sharp bends). The pool noodles (closed cell foam tubes) around here are scored so they can be put on either way. Anyway, it's all fluff essentially and puffin down would serve as well. The primary thing is to form an airtight barrier so atmospheric moisture can't migrate to the cold pipes. That's best accomplished with lots of sticky tape. A snackfood packet of silica gel in there wouldn't hurt.

11-24-2004, 04:51 AM	#7
2Busy Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 62	I work in the wholesale electrical parts trade. About 10 years we sold some kind of goop in a tube that the name escapes me. At any rate, you put in in conduit with wire. If moisture started coming up the conduit, this stuff would actually migrate towards the moisture and end up encapsualting it. Supposed to key moisture out of junction boxes outside etc. They demonstrated this stuff with 3/4 inch id acrylic tube with wires in it. They would set one end down in a glass of water for a minute or so and take it out and lay it horizontal. It moved too slow to see it happen, but if you marked where the gel was in the tube and then went back in an hour, you could readily see it had moved towards the wet end.

11-24-2004, 01:53 PM	#8
Kobuchi Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: BC, Canada Posts: 313	Creepy stuff. So it was a wire pulling lubricant that transforms into a moisture clotter? I've got to check this out.

11-25-2004, 01:18 AM	#10
Kobuchi Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: BC, Canada Posts: 313	Sure there's a difference. One could thickly bind fibreglass fluff around a pipe and this would be great thermal insulation, but that wouldn't slow condensation on the pipe. Segments of foam tube won't help either if there are tiny gaps between the segments. Water vapour migrates differently than heat, so we block it differently. To prevent condensation we need to establish an airtight envelope, which can't reach dew point on any of its surface.

11-27-2004, 08:16 AM	#16
LopeDogg Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Africa Posts: 69	hmm i read about the golden rod... seems to me like its meant to keep the temprature inside an enclosure slightly warmer than the outside temp which prevents the walls (and other stuff in the enclosure) from getting below dew point, preventing condensation. the problem here is the pipes are providing the coldness i guess the golden rod could help by heating the outer layer of the insulation on the pipes above dew point... im starting to think that watercooling with such cold water is a waste of time. all that really needs overclocking is the graphics card, so i should just slap a 226W peltier directly on my 6800GT hopefully ill see a nice extreme overclocking example with the 6800GT before i get around to it to see if its worthwhile. room temp cooling is so much simpler heheh.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)