How much restriction is too much restriction?

FooTemps · 12-13-2005, 10:22 PM

Note: I am running a Small form factor system and I'm dead set on keeping it. I'm not going to change my system.
I'm running an mATX system and I've been planning a watercooling layout for almost a month now and I've come to two different options that have to deal with restriction and routing.

My Setup:
AMD A64 x2 4400+
MSI K8NGM2-FID
G.Skill 2gb (2x 1gig) ddr400 kit
BFG geforce 7800GTX
Silverstone SG01 mATX case

My options
Option A.
Storm
D5 or equivalent
BIX 120x2 with one 90 degree fitting on outlet
aquaxtreme mp-1
swiftech microres
modify psu for clearance to fit storm + fittings + tubing
order of routing... pump > cpu > gpu > rad > res > pump

Option B.
Storm w/ 90 degree fittings on inlet AND outlet
D5 or equivalent
BIX x-flow 120x2
aquaxtreme mp-1
swiftech microres
order of routing... pump > cpu > rad > gpu > res > pump

I know that 90 degree fittings are flow killers and that the Storm needs high flow to achieve jet impigment cooling. The thing that worries me is that I either have to do some drastic modding or kill the flow in order to fit within the constraints of the case. I've also considered using the apogee but I still have doubts on that block.

So the big question is...
Will the storm function properly under the level of restriction (2 90 degree barbs + gpu block) of option B?

(some smaller questions)
Will the order of routing for option B still yeild decent cooling?
Do NPSM 90 degree swivel/quick disconnect fittings even exist? I searched mcmaster carr and omega.com and came out empty handed.

edit: added beginning and spelling

GlassMan · 12-14-2005, 08:16 AM

Maybe it's time for a new case. Spending a lot of money and putting limits on you results.

FooTemps · 12-14-2005, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlassMan

Maybe it's time for a new case. Spending a lot of money and putting limits on you results.

It's all in the spirit of modding. Not to mention I'm not gonna downgrade for a bigger case, hahahaha. Now it would be nice to get an answer to my questions.

bigben2k · 12-14-2005, 03:10 PM

An elbow has the same restriction as a 1 foot section of tubing, of the same ID.

Otherwise you want res > pump, anything else is irrelevant.

The D5 pump is good; you should be fine.

McMaster should have what you're looking for, but may be hard to find. Google, or try cole-parmer.

FooTemps · 12-15-2005, 01:45 AM

Thanks ben for the rough number. I'd rather go with a low restriction block like the apogee if I get that much restriction. Rather not risk killing the flow to a storm like that.

Albigger · 12-15-2005, 03:03 AM

i responded @ ocforums thread, just to let you know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FooTemps

Thanks ben for the rough number. I'd rather go with a low restriction block like the apogee if I get that much restriction. Rather not risk killing the flow to a storm like that.

And that's also what I recommended, as the storm is much more dependent on flow than the apogee appears to be.

FooTemps · 12-15-2005, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albigger

i responded @ ocforums thread, just to let you know.

And that's also what I recommended, as the storm is much more dependent on flow than the apogee appears to be.

Yeah, I saw your post. I just came over here to get some numbers to get a final confirmation. After looking at the data from robotech's review I figured your suggestion was correct since the apogee is way less impacted by the flow rate.

pauldenton · 12-15-2005, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FooTemps

Yeah, I saw your post. I just came over here to get some numbers to get a final confirmation. After looking at the data from robotech's review I figured your suggestion was correct since the apogee is way less impacted by the flow rate.

hmm - otoh the contribution to the overall resistance of the loop from the elbows is way less in the storm loop (storm =high res itself) than the apogee loop ....

if the elbow = 1 foot is accurate then it would be virtually unnoticed in a storm loop i would have thought...(an additional 2 feet of tubing is neither here nor there compared with the storm's own resistance...)

with a D5 i'd have thought you would still get more than ample flow for the storm to perform well (course an apogee is slightly cheaper....)

'course it's all contingent on finding 90degree fittings with a suitable thread either way...

FooTemps · 12-15-2005, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pauldenton

hmm - otoh the contribution to the overall resistance of the loop from the elbows is way less in the storm loop (storm =high res itself) than the apogee loop ....

if the elbow = 1 foot is accurate then it would be virtually unnoticed in a storm loop i would have thought...(an additional 2 feet of tubing is neither here nor there compared with the storm's own resistance...)

with a D5 i'd have thought you would still get more than ample flow for the storm to perform well (course an apogee is slightly cheaper....)

'course it's all contingent on finding 90degree fittings with a suitable thread either way...

The D5 may be able to handle it but the storm and mp-05 (my alternate since the storm is pricey now) are far more dependent on flow than the apogee. That's the key reason I'm going to switch over, I'd rather not risk having too little flow to the blocks even if it seems 99% okay to run the system like that.

pauldenton · 12-15-2005, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FooTemps

The D5 may be able to handle it but the storm and mp-05 (my alternate since the storm is pricey now) are far more dependent on flow than the apogee. That's the key reason I'm going to switch over, I'd rather not risk having too little flow to the blocks even if it seems 99% okay to run the system like that.

just checked and the source of cheap storms i knew of (sidewinder) now no longer have any

i guess you need to confirm a source for either 1/4" NPSM (apogee) or 9/16-18 (mp-05) elbows...

stev · 12-15-2005, 03:12 PM

You could use "Conduit Elbows" or the "Flow Bend Clips" made by John-Guest to help route the tubing without kinking it.

OR ...

Try to see if their FLOW BEND CONNECTOR Superseal x Speedfit elbows work.

They come in many sizes too ...
http://www.johnguest.com/part_spec.asp?s=SI42_D1

Peace!

Stev

Aronj66 · 12-15-2005, 03:49 PM

Is it possible to even thread an elbow on the storm or apogee? I'd have to look again, but I thought the ports were too close together to get 90deg. fittings on there. 1 sure, but the second I think would hit the installed one. I would not worry about the flow restriction too much, there are alot of people starting to use the colder dual cutoff quick disconnects and they don't hinder the performance enough for the users to need to stop using them.

FooTemps · 12-15-2005, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aronj66

Is it possible to even thread an elbow on the storm or apogee? I'd have to look again, but I thought the ports were too close together to get 90deg. fittings on there. 1 sure, but the second I think would hit the installed one. I would not worry about the flow restriction too much, there are alot of people starting to use the colder dual cutoff quick disconnects and they don't hinder the performance enough for the users to need to stop using them.

Well, I've been looking for either swivel or quick disconnect fittings. The problem is that the biggest QD fitting I've found is 3/8" in NPT and biggest swivel fitting is 1/4" NPT. I found a couple BSPP and NPTF swivel fittings but i don't know how those will fit. Swiftech says that' BSPP is safe.

For the mp-05 i'm sure there's no hope of finding fittings for them.

Albigger · 12-15-2005, 10:32 PM

How about screwing one 90deg bend all the way down (find a low-profile one if you can) then on the second get something like a 1" nipple to extend the outlet and screw the second 90 deg on (it should spin right over the top of the other one).

Course you still might not have room for this depending on your clearance...

Marci · 12-16-2005, 05:29 AM

I know a few places that carry oodles of swivels n' such - UK based tho... thorite.co.uk s'the usual suspect - int'l shipping shouldn't be stoopid...

FooTemps · 12-16-2005, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marci

I know a few places that carry oodles of swivels n' such - UK based tho... thorite.co.uk s'the usual suspect - int'l shipping shouldn't be stoopid...

just tried going there, it's a dead site. any other places?

Long Haired Git · 12-27-2005, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FooTemps

Will the storm function properly under the level of restriction (2 90 degree barbs + gpu block) of option B?

Yes. My modelling is done with:

Swiftech MCR220QP with two fans at 7v.
MCP655 @ 5
Storm on 70W CPU
MCW6002 (to represent GPU block) on 30W GPU {watching TV is not playing 3D game hence lower wattage}
2 meters of 1/2" tubing.

Adding in the GPU block adds 2.1°C to the CPU temp.
Adding in another 50cm of 1/2" tubing drops the flow rate by like 0.1 LPM.

I guess the addage of 90° turns being flow kills is from back when we wanted 10 LPM flow rates due to the blocks being low-tech. Impingement slows the flow rate down and hence the bends are now not so bad?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FooTemps

Will the order of routing for option B still yeild decent cooling?

Yes. Order of components has trivial impact on temps, except always put res before the pump.

ProHandyman · 12-27-2005, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FooTemps

just tried going there, it's a dead site. any other places?

Try this link: https://secure.thorite.co.uk/index.html

FooTemps · 01-15-2006, 04:21 AM

Back from the dead! (Actually, I just only think of modding when I come home)

I managed to order the wrong fittings, but it was a good thing that I did since I want to get bspp fittings or npsm fittings.

I checked mcmaster and omega (I couldn't find bsp fittings) and the thorite site is uk based and I'm on the West coast of the US. Any good US based stores that carry bsp fittings?

12-13-2005, 10:22 PM	#1
FooTemps Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: WA, USA Posts: 49	How much restriction is too much restriction? Note: I am running a Small form factor system and I'm dead set on keeping it. I'm not going to change my system. I'm running an mATX system and I've been planning a watercooling layout for almost a month now and I've come to two different options that have to deal with restriction and routing. My Setup: AMD A64 x2 4400+ MSI K8NGM2-FID G.Skill 2gb (2x 1gig) ddr400 kit BFG geforce 7800GTX Silverstone SG01 mATX case My options Option A. Storm D5 or equivalent BIX 120x2 with one 90 degree fitting on outlet aquaxtreme mp-1 swiftech microres modify psu for clearance to fit storm + fittings + tubing order of routing... pump > cpu > gpu > rad > res > pump Option B. Storm w/ 90 degree fittings on inlet AND outlet D5 or equivalent BIX x-flow 120x2 aquaxtreme mp-1 swiftech microres order of routing... pump > cpu > rad > gpu > res > pump I know that 90 degree fittings are flow killers and that the Storm needs high flow to achieve jet impigment cooling. The thing that worries me is that I either have to do some drastic modding or kill the flow in order to fit within the constraints of the case. I've also considered using the apogee but I still have doubts on that block. So the big question is... Will the storm function properly under the level of restriction (2 90 degree barbs + gpu block) of option B? (some smaller questions) Will the order of routing for option B still yeild decent cooling? Do NPSM 90 degree swivel/quick disconnect fittings even exist? I searched mcmaster carr and omega.com and came out empty handed. edit: added beginning and spelling Last edited by FooTemps; 12-14-2005 at 02:34 PM.

12-14-2005, 08:16 AM	#2
GlassMan Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Kentucky USA Posts: 64	Re: How much restriction is too much restriction? Maybe it's time for a new case. Spending a lot of money and putting limits on you results.

12-14-2005, 03:10 PM	#4
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Re: How much restriction is too much restriction? An elbow has the same restriction as a 1 foot section of tubing, of the same ID. Otherwise you want res > pump, anything else is irrelevant. The D5 pump is good; you should be fine. McMaster should have what you're looking for, but may be hard to find. Google, or try cole-parmer. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

12-15-2005, 01:45 AM	#5
FooTemps Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: WA, USA Posts: 49	Re: How much restriction is too much restriction? Thanks ben for the rough number. I'd rather go with a low restriction block like the apogee if I get that much restriction. Rather not risk killing the flow to a storm like that.

12-15-2005, 03:12 PM	#11
stev Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: niagara falls Posts: 96	Re: How much restriction is too much restriction? You could use "Conduit Elbows" or the "Flow Bend Clips" made by John-Guest to help route the tubing without kinking it. OR ... Try to see if their FLOW BEND CONNECTOR Superseal x Speedfit elbows work. They come in many sizes too ... http://www.johnguest.com/part_spec.asp?s=SI42_D1 Peace! Stev

12-15-2005, 03:49 PM	#12
Aronj66 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: MD Posts: 24	Re: How much restriction is too much restriction? Is it possible to even thread an elbow on the storm or apogee? I'd have to look again, but I thought the ports were too close together to get 90deg. fittings on there. 1 sure, but the second I think would hit the installed one. I would not worry about the flow restriction too much, there are alot of people starting to use the colder dual cutoff quick disconnects and they don't hinder the performance enough for the users to need to stop using them.

12-15-2005, 10:32 PM	#14
Albigger Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: ohio Posts: 140	Re: How much restriction is too much restriction? How about screwing one 90deg bend all the way down (find a low-profile one if you can) then on the second get something like a 1" nipple to extend the outlet and screw the second 90 deg on (it should spin right over the top of the other one). Course you still might not have room for this depending on your clearance...

12-16-2005, 05:29 AM	#15
Marci Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2003 Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK Posts: 486	Re: How much restriction is too much restriction? I know a few places that carry oodles of swivels n' such - UK based tho... thorite.co.uk s'the usual suspect - int'l shipping shouldn't be stoopid... __________________ www.minimotosidecars.org / www.thermochill.com / www.themusiccollective.co.uk

01-15-2006, 04:21 AM	#19
FooTemps Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: WA, USA Posts: 49	Re: How much restriction is too much restriction? Back from the dead! (Actually, I just only think of modding when I come home) I managed to order the wrong fittings, but it was a good thing that I did since I want to get bspp fittings or npsm fittings. I checked mcmaster and omega (I couldn't find bsp fittings) and the thorite site is uk based and I'm on the West coast of the US. Any good US based stores that carry bsp fittings?

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