Aluminum rads best says Koolance

[Hansfragger]

This was an interesting read on the benefits of rad construction techniques. Does everyone agree with this?

http://www.koolance.com/technical/my...radiators.html

[Joe]

haha I love how they point out the oxidation on the copper components...

Hmm something tells me they never took at remedial classes in chemistry because Aluminum oxidizes as soon as its exposed to air or water, and unlike copper, Aluminum will corrode and flake away when oxidized where as Coppers oxide actually protects the underlying material from further damage.

This is the reason Copper is used in paint for ships hulls, the primary ingredient in the bronze that forms the props and sea water pluming and the pluming in most homes.

Also they mention in their spiffy pic how the 2 are joined. and its pretty much dead wrong. Copper radaitors use brazing as well as soldering to join the fins together... the SAME brazing process is used on the aluminum. The aluminum fins are not melted to the tubes as they show in the pic yet they claim in the text that they are brazed... which is how its done.

Oh well what do you expect? its just typical "our shit rocks, their shit sucks" propaganda.

Design has much more to do with heat transfer than material.

[Hansfragger]

Nicely done Joe - That's why you get the big bucks right-

I thought it convenient that nowhere in the "speel" did they acknowledge that aluminum oxidizes and corrodes. I have never seen a rad assembled from the ground up, but glue

[jaydee]

Koolance knows bling sells to ignorant users (most of the users). They will write whatever they feel like and put "in our testing" and make it sound legit and anyone with no clue will buy into it. I also like their explanation of why gold plating doesn't effect heat transfer in the last part of this page:
http://www.koolance.com/technical/co...l#mixingmetals

Originally Posted by Koolance

And what about gold's lower thermal conductivity? In a computer water cooling system, this is inconsequential when dealing with water block plating that's only microns thick. The benefits of gold plating are clear.

So I guess all TIM material is inconsequential to eh? being it is microns thick....

Maybe Koolance hasn't heard of cuprobraze.

[bigben2k]

It does promote their product, strictly on the fact that the only way you can use an alu rad, is with their gold plated blocks , otherwise, galvanic corrosion will take its toll. We've seen it too many times.

There's no glue in a copper rad. Possibly solder (i believe that the cheapest assembly method involves a lead solder "dip").

Their test claims are posted though... "...transfer heat 39-49% more efficiently than a typical claimed "copper core" radiator...".

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by bigben2k

Their test claims are posted though... "...transfer heat 39-49% more efficiently than a typical claimed "copper core" radiator...".

Yeah, but under what test methods, equipment and rads? Of course they will not tell us that info.

[ibmkg]

They do have some valid points.

a) Copper is not a copper rad but mix of copper and brass. Brass is in contact with water mostly.

b) Al 's heat dissipation is better than Cu. That seems good for a rad.

c) All new automobiles use Al rads. Al intercoolers (for turbo air cooling), AC coil/rad and engine rad all are Al now a days. There must be more to the fact that they are cheap since expensive newer cars have them.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by ibmkg

They do have some valid points.

a) Copper is not a copper rad but mix of copper and brass. Brass is in contact with water mostly.

b) Al 's heat dissipation is better than Cu. That seems good for a rad.

c) All new automobiles use Al rads. Al intercoolers (for turbo air cooling), AC coil/rad and engine rad all are Al now a days. There must be more to the fact that they are cheap since expensive newer cars have them.

a) Still better than aluminum.
b) Not to accurate.
c) Because modern engines run significantly cooler by design not needing more costly radiators.

[JamesAvery22]

To add onto jaydee,
Even though the car is new doesn't mean the design of many of the parts that make up said car are new... Those types of radiators, as well as many other parts in the car, have been around for a long time. Manufacturing plants/lines for those kind of re-used designs in turn have been around for a long time. The older those types of places get the more efficient and cost effective they become. Its not like you can just switch materials from aluminum to copper and up the costs just a little. As jaydee said there is no need for a copper radiator so there is no justification or market for a company to blow away an entire plant and start over so they can use copper.

[ibmkg]

To your c) I would 'slightly' disagree. I am a car enthusiast as well. In free time I modify car (the ones that I own) for ultra performance. Modern engines do not run cool enough (though way cooler than older ones). But with a beefy turbo you can melt the block.

I have also water cooled my intercooler (rad). I am telling this as to make you understand the extent of performance mod.

Copper rad tends to get hotter and hotter with conventional cooling method (air) not cooling it fast enough. Al shows a dramatic change since as soon as cooling starts (air starts to flow) rad gets cool. Compare it to Cu, Al requires less air to cool down.

I agree that Al would not be as effective to cool the air from turbo as compared to Cu but to cool down Cu itself one needs better cooling methods.

You can try this be heating a piece of Al and Cu with same amount of heat for a period of time. Al will cool down much faster than Cu when left in open air.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by ibmkg

To your c) I would 'slightly' disagree. I am a car enthusiast as well. In free time I modify car (the ones that I own) for ultra performance. Modern engines do not run cool enough (though way cooler than older ones). But with a beefy turbo you can melt the block.

I have also water cooled my intercooler (rad). I am telling this as to make you understand the extent of performance mod.

Copper rad tends to get hotter and hotter with conventional cooling method (air) not cooling it fast enough. Al shows a dramatic change since as soon as cooling starts (air starts to flow) rad gets cool. Compare it to Cu, Al requires less air to cool down.

I agree that Al would not be as effective to cool the air from turbo as compared to Cu but to cool down Cu itself one needs better cooling methods.

You can try this be heating a piece of Al and Cu with same amount of heat for a period of time. Al will cool down much faster than Cu when left in open air.

You are not wrong here entirely. Copper does dissipate heat faster though. However what you are saying is not wrong about needed a better cooling method. Copper will hold a lot more heat than aluminum so there is a lot more heat in the copper to cool. This is why many think copper doesn't dissipate heat faster. It does there is just a lot more to dissipate.

Another reason aluminum is used for cars is weight reduction.

[wuzy]

Originally Posted by Hansfragger

This was an interesting read on the benefits of rad construction techniques. Does everyone agree with this?

http://www.koolance.com/technical/my...radiators.html

I read it, total utter BS.
And here's HWLabs' response to it (on their mainpage):
http://www.hwlabs.com/

Just merely using ones arse to think about it (doesn't require brain), Koolance makes some of the the most awful watercooling components for the mainstream, discussing technical advantages over a well established hi-end competitors product.

[metarinka]

yah I read the HWlabs response but the original koolance article is now down, anyone have it cached?

[muffy]

Joe's on the money
It makes you wounder about their other products when they get the basics so wrong

i dont think we'll see that post from them again .Obviously they thought it was wrong too otherwise they wouldn't have removed it ... Thats some egg on your face

[HammerSandwich]

Originally Posted by jaydee

Another reason aluminum is used for cars is weight reduction.

That's the main reason for aluminum rads.

[bigben2k]

Originally Posted by HammerSandwich

That's the main reason for aluminum rads.

I thought it was mainly to prevent corrosion, since a lot of engine components use aluminium too now (actual engine block excluded, steel), but the cost factor is definitely a big one.

I've replaced the aluminium radiator on my car, and it was scary to see something that is as large as one would expect, but only 3/4" thick. My car struggles to keep cool, in this hot Texas weather: now I know why!

[Roscal]

I made my detailled explanation of their statements, but it's in french, only Ben could understand quite reasonably because Google translation is awful

[bigben2k]

Merci David! (toujours un plaisir de t'entendre!).

The highlights, for those interested:

-There's no glue used: it is a *soldered* joint, and there's nothing wrong with that.

-Testing methods are not published, but make a reference to a 1 kW load. Most of the difference would be expected to come from the ventilation, not the radiator, as a copper/brass radiator will outperform an aluminium unit. Koolance has yet to come out with a kit that has excellent performance.


There are many small points that address all of the Koolance claims, all of which are easily refuted, and in great detail (thank you Roscal!).

-oxidation within the copper/brass rads: normal when you expose the insides to ambient air... the oxidation actually protects the copper/brass, where with aluminium, it flakes off, and pits the aluminium, which speeds up the failure.


If there's a specific claim for which anyone would like me to translate Roscal's counter, just let me know.

[Roscal]

Small correction of your reply because french word to describe assembly processes are the opposite of the english word and you probably confused them like Babelfish translation : joints in our rads (namely Hwlabs, Swiftech, Coolingworks, etc.) are soldered, not brazed. Soldering is a weaker method than brazing. Only Cuprobraze process allows brazed joints and no watercooling manufacturer use it for the moment (Hwlabs will probably be the first, they work on it). On the other side, alu rads are brazed.

[bigben2k]

Corrected, thank you!

I thought that was odd, because brazing is indeed more difficult (much higher temp), and last I checked, the heater core assembly process involved a simple solder dip.