GPU water blocks take up too much space

grep · 01-24-2002, 02:24 AM

I have seen many GPU water blocks and they all seem to suffer from one basic problem. The fittings increase the space needed to install them so much you loose access to one or even more slots. Why couldn't you bring the water into the block from the edge instead of the top. By machining a slot in the edge of the block You can create a wide rectangular opeaning that extends 1/2 way across the edge of the block. A second rectangular opeaning extends the remaining distance across the end of the block. One side is the inlet and the other is the exhaust. now there is a flattened copper cone that tapers from the round opening of the brass fitting to a narrow rectangular opening opening that solders into the block at the other end. The net effect is the brass fitting is reduced from its normal size and shape and flattened and spread to maintain the same volume but over a wider area, both the inlet and the outlet can be on the same side of the block. the water flow should be faster because of the gradual flair of the copper flair amd the hose fittings are fed from the edge and not blocking any other slots. I visualize a thin water block with a very wide inlet and a narrow center devider wall, the water would flow in a narrow flattened wide stream to the rear of the block then make a 180 turn and flow backto the wide outlet. There would be small ridges to increase surface area and they would be angled to increase turbulance and then to assist in the 180 turn then to direct flow at the exhaust. The tapered flairing inlet and outlets would act like impedance matching devices to increase flow.
I wish I could draw it for you but my drawing sucks.
Anyway what do you think

Grep

BladeRunner · 01-24-2002, 04:47 AM

I had to make this.

from this

Simply because this

would not fit in a position that the tubes could be run to it, too many components and this in the way.

Funny thing is on my current mobo an MSI nforce it doesn't block any slots because there is no PCI slot 1

grep · 01-24-2002, 05:25 AM

The 3rd block is closest to what I had in mind, the thickness of the block limits the max outside diameter of the inlet and exhaust fittings. by moving from a perfectly round fitting to a flattened oval or rectangular fitting. You can use a larger fitting that can pass more water and still fit in to a block with the same thickness as before. I think that when the water flows from the round fitting to interior of the block the sudden change in shape and size causes an impedance that limits the water flow, the same is true at the exhaust. The gradual flare from the round fitting to the flater and wider block is a mechanical matching device. Although you seem to be saying that in your particular case this is not effective due to the rest of your very fine design. I still think this is an idea that can be of advantage in many designs.

Grep

BladeRunner · 01-24-2002, 06:02 AM

Yeah without the ram block It possibly could fit, but is capacitors in the way that stops the use of the block type in pic 3 with my VGA

cool-computers make a unit like this with retaining tabs.

I understand what you are saying with large inlet & out let but I still need convincing that it truly makes any difference for a CPU block let alone a GPU. I went from 3/8 barbs on my CPU block to reamed out 1/2 barbs (reamed to 10mm ID) and I can't really detect a difference in temp, Ok so I'm only using the socket diode crap but maybe it's a degree better but it's not obvious, once you have "enough" flow more wont help.

I think this huge flow rate bandwagon that everyone is jumping on is not necessarily always required. It's a bit like fitting bigger fuel lines from your cars fuel tank to the fuel injectors. If the flow was more than required before fitting larger tube is pointless. A simple test is restrict the flow a bit by squeezing the inlet tube if the temps remain the same then it's 99% certian your flow rate is more than adequate and more flow may make matters worse rather than better.

grep · 01-24-2002, 06:16 AM

you may well be correct. But lets assume that you feel 1/2" fittings are enought, but you decide to try 3/8" fittings and find that there not quite enough. My method should permit 3/8ths fittings to do the job. If they do, then you can use 3/8ths fittings and because there smaller, there more flexable and easier to use.

Grep

pHaestus · 01-24-2002, 07:21 AM

Instead of 3/8" hose barbs then look in hte plumbing section of your local hardware store and pick up some 1/4" NPT x 3/8" adapters. They are all copper, and the thickness of the copper is much less than that of a brass fitting. You can get close to the same ID as some of the 1/2" fittings I have here at the house.

BladeRunner · 01-24-2002, 07:50 AM

True, and I've seen people using copper pipe, but I don't personally like the idea of smooth pipes, seems like a water disaster waiting to happen when the tube slides off, reamed out brass barbs like the block in the image do the job well enough

I recently got this block from NZ made by a guy Tojja and have modded it a little.

This is what I've done:-

Probably about an hours worth of finishing, (while watching TV), required to get it that shiny/ round the corners etc. Then the clear lacquer took maybe 10 min to do and over night on the room central heating rad to harden. This then needed T-cut & polish, about 15mins The barbs which are my own brass ones bought locally and drilled out from 8.3mm ID to 10mm ID (going up in incremental drill sizes). They are tapered barbs so I had to force them in so they cut a larger slightly wider thread, but the thread was the same 1/4 bsp. Once they would go in to the end of the thread I cut the extra length off and used a taper cone drill bit to shape flow all the ends smooth.

I also centre punched the area inside the block below the input channel to increase surface area & turbulence. Barbs were then screwed in with a small amount of Araldite on the threads and it's ready. So total work probably 2 to 2½ hours.

Butcher · 01-24-2002, 11:50 AM

Blade, what sort of lacquer do you use to coat the copper there?

DigitalChaos · 01-24-2002, 11:55 AM

yea what coating do you use... ive been lookin around for stuff... i guess ill post a thread for that...

but anyone look into the DangerDen Geforce Video block? i just orderd one and it looks pretty low profile... cant wait to get it

DigitalChaos · 01-24-2002, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BladeRunner
Yeah without the ram block It possibly could fit, but is capacitors in the way that stops the use of the block type in pic 3 with my VGA

cool-computers make a unit like this with retaining tabs.

.

i am currently using that same vid block on my geforce 2!!!
yeah it bumped into my cap... so i desoldered it and put it on the back side of the card

http://www.geocities.com/xdigitalchaosx/ <-- third pic from the bottom... that will show what the problem was with the cap

BladeRunner · 01-24-2002, 12:14 PM

DigitalChaos

The trouble with that new DD GPU block, (other than the fact it looks Pig Ugly to me), Is that it sucks up two PCI slots apparently.

Also some were having trouble with the retainers not fitting on some GF3 cards due to a capacitor in the way.

Butcher

I use cellulose clear lacquer (aerosol can), and my method is explained fully in all the block builds on my site, (sig link). Seems to work fine but it will scratch off if you are not careful.

DigitalChaos · 01-24-2002, 12:37 PM

hmmm... if it takes up an extra slot that would kinda suck... but the capacitor is poor design on the card mfg end...
but a little rubber washer would fix that.. or a nylon washer with a small piece cut out of it

BladeRunner · 01-24-2002, 12:48 PM

Yeah well I'm not 100% sure on this as I don't have one but from what I've heard it takes two PCI. It sure looks like it will because mine only just gets away with one and it definately looks taller.

The card design layout is for the default cooling retention, so it's not really fair to lay blame at their door. Again from what I've read it's more than one card and although it can be solved, should have been taken into account with the block retainer design by DD imo.

Brad · 01-24-2002, 02:49 PM

what blade has done is about the only way to get a watercooled gpu and watercooled ram. Even if you do lose a pci slot, how many of you out there use that top pci slot?

mrcandy224 · 01-24-2002, 04:00 PM

I'm glad BladeRunner reads my threads

yeah the GPU block from DD has mounting problems..

sigh they haven't emailed me back about all the MFGs I found that have the problem (literally all of them..),

anyhoo.. BladeRunner! Would you like to make me a Ram waterblock? I don't have the tools to do it myself or I would have a long time ago.. how much can I pay you?

grep · 01-24-2002, 04:47 PM

Well the problem is I don't actually have a GF3 in hand and I doubt if I will, I am waiting for the new GF4 before I get one.
But I must say that of all the waterblocks I have seen pictures of BladeRunner sure makes the prettiest I may be all wrong from an engineering/design point of view, but I can't help the feeling that someone who cares how it looks, somehow is a better engineer. DETAILS COUNT!. My design idea was an effort to allow the designer to route the inlet and outlets in more non traditional ways and even improve flow while doing it. Unfortunatly I am old and no longer have access to machine tools or a machine shop so practical machining is just a lost dream.
One question remains. Where does blade runner hide the teflon tape?

Grep

Pinkster · 01-24-2002, 05:53 PM

i still dont get it... most motherboards cant use their pci slot one neway... so theres no loss in using it!.. this is because normally the agp slot uses the same irq as pci slot 1!@

BladeRunner · 01-24-2002, 07:37 PM

I guess I just love the way copper looks when shiny, especially offset with the shiny brass colour

Unless you really require all the PCI slots I agree leave it empty, but If you are using a true PCI card (that follows the laid down PCI specs) and using a NT kernal OS then in theory Slot sharing / IRQ sharing issues should not exist.

mrcandy224
Sorry I just don't have the equipment or time to make the blocks for others ATM, but I will be looking into it. Unless I could make them with my home built look & quality, I wouldn't bother though.

grep
I don't use PTFE tape if that's what you mean all barbs are either soldered in or screwed in tight with Araldite Epoxy resin on the threads, This of course makes them pretty permanent but is also 99.9% leak proof

Brad · 01-24-2002, 08:19 PM

yeah, I've never used the top pci slot, also I have never seen dell, compaq or any other oem use the top pci slots unless all of them are in use

jaydee · 01-24-2002, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DigitalChaos
but the capacitor is poor design on the card mfg end...

Thats like saying a mobo is bad because it dosn't overclock well but runs great at stock speeds that it was designed for.

They do not make these cards with water cooling in mind!!!!

Butcher · 01-24-2002, 09:28 PM

hmm time to go find some cellulose lacquer

Also I'd just like to say soldered or epoxied barbs are GREAT. In particular soldered, you won't see a leak on them

p_D_c · 01-26-2002, 03:56 PM

my cooler uses 10mm tubing, i checked now, and if i had used 3mm,5mm,3mm e would not block any PCI... would be though to drill the holes in... they are 10mm

mrcandy224 · 01-26-2002, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaydee116

Thats like saying a mobo is bad because it dosn't overclock well but runs great at stock speeds that it was designed for.

They do not make these cards with water cooling in mind!!!!

Yes but think about if anyone else used "washer" style mounting.. what would they turn to?

Butcher · 01-26-2002, 05:14 PM

Well blades work inspired me to get the lapping paper out and a can of lacquer and have a go at making my maze look nice, and I'm quite pleased with the result:

BladeRunner · 01-26-2002, 05:44 PM

That looks nice, Butcher, and should stay that way with the lacquering.

01-24-2002, 02:24 AM	#1
grep Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 37	GPU water blocks take up too much space I have seen many GPU water blocks and they all seem to suffer from one basic problem. The fittings increase the space needed to install them so much you loose access to one or even more slots. Why couldn't you bring the water into the block from the edge instead of the top. By machining a slot in the edge of the block You can create a wide rectangular opeaning that extends 1/2 way across the edge of the block. A second rectangular opeaning extends the remaining distance across the end of the block. One side is the inlet and the other is the exhaust. now there is a flattened copper cone that tapers from the round opening of the brass fitting to a narrow rectangular opening opening that solders into the block at the other end. The net effect is the brass fitting is reduced from its normal size and shape and flattened and spread to maintain the same volume but over a wider area, both the inlet and the outlet can be on the same side of the block. the water flow should be faster because of the gradual flair of the copper flair amd the hose fittings are fed from the edge and not blocking any other slots. I visualize a thin water block with a very wide inlet and a narrow center devider wall, the water would flow in a narrow flattened wide stream to the rear of the block then make a 180 turn and flow backto the wide outlet. There would be small ridges to increase surface area and they would be angled to increase turbulance and then to assist in the 180 turn then to direct flow at the exhaust. The tapered flairing inlet and outlets would act like impedance matching devices to increase flow. I wish I could draw it for you but my drawing sucks. Anyway what do you think Grep __________________ every thing is optional

01-24-2002, 04:47 AM	#2
BladeRunner Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chesterfield Uk Posts: 459	I had to make this. from this Simply because this would not fit in a position that the tubes could be run to it, too many components and this in the way. Funny thing is on my current mobo an MSI nforce it doesn't block any slots because there is no PCI slot 1 __________________ Zero Fan Zone

01-24-2002, 05:25 AM	#3
grep Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 37	you sure do nice work The 3rd block is closest to what I had in mind, the thickness of the block limits the max outside diameter of the inlet and exhaust fittings. by moving from a perfectly round fitting to a flattened oval or rectangular fitting. You can use a larger fitting that can pass more water and still fit in to a block with the same thickness as before. I think that when the water flows from the round fitting to interior of the block the sudden change in shape and size causes an impedance that limits the water flow, the same is true at the exhaust. The gradual flare from the round fitting to the flater and wider block is a mechanical matching device. Although you seem to be saying that in your particular case this is not effective due to the rest of your very fine design. I still think this is an idea that can be of advantage in many designs. Grep __________________ every thing is optional

01-24-2002, 06:02 AM	#4
BladeRunner Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chesterfield Uk Posts: 459	Yeah without the ram block It possibly could fit, but is capacitors in the way that stops the use of the block type in pic 3 with my VGA cool-computers make a unit like this with retaining tabs. I understand what you are saying with large inlet & out let but I still need convincing that it truly makes any difference for a CPU block let alone a GPU. I went from 3/8 barbs on my CPU block to reamed out 1/2 barbs (reamed to 10mm ID) and I can't really detect a difference in temp, Ok so I'm only using the socket diode crap but maybe it's a degree better but it's not obvious, once you have "enough" flow more wont help. I think this huge flow rate bandwagon that everyone is jumping on is not necessarily always required. It's a bit like fitting bigger fuel lines from your cars fuel tank to the fuel injectors. If the flow was more than required before fitting larger tube is pointless. A simple test is restrict the flow a bit by squeezing the inlet tube if the temps remain the same then it's 99% certian your flow rate is more than adequate and more flow may make matters worse rather than better. __________________ Zero Fan Zone

01-24-2002, 06:16 AM	#5
grep Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 37	you may well be correct. But lets assume that you feel 1/2" fittings are enought, but you decide to try 3/8" fittings and find that there not quite enough. My method should permit 3/8ths fittings to do the job. If they do, then you can use 3/8ths fittings and because there smaller, there more flexable and easier to use. Grep __________________ every thing is optional

01-24-2002, 07:21 AM	#6
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	Instead of 3/8" hose barbs then look in hte plumbing section of your local hardware store and pick up some 1/4" NPT x 3/8" adapters. They are all copper, and the thickness of the copper is much less than that of a brass fitting. You can get close to the same ID as some of the 1/2" fittings I have here at the house.

01-24-2002, 07:50 AM	#7
BladeRunner Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chesterfield Uk Posts: 459	True, and I've seen people using copper pipe, but I don't personally like the idea of smooth pipes, seems like a water disaster waiting to happen when the tube slides off, reamed out brass barbs like the block in the image do the job well enough I recently got this block from NZ made by a guy Tojja and have modded it a little. This is what I've done:- Probably about an hours worth of finishing, (while watching TV), required to get it that shiny/ round the corners etc. Then the clear lacquer took maybe 10 min to do and over night on the room central heating rad to harden. This then needed T-cut & polish, about 15mins The barbs which are my own brass ones bought locally and drilled out from 8.3mm ID to 10mm ID (going up in incremental drill sizes). They are tapered barbs so I had to force them in so they cut a larger slightly wider thread, but the thread was the same 1/4 bsp. Once they would go in to the end of the thread I cut the extra length off and used a taper cone drill bit to shape flow all the ends smooth. I also centre punched the area inside the block below the input channel to increase surface area & turbulence. Barbs were then screwed in with a small amount of Araldite on the threads and it's ready. So total work probably 2 to 2½ hours. __________________ Zero Fan Zone Last edited by BladeRunner; 04-23-2002 at 05:43 PM.

01-24-2002, 11:50 AM	#8
Butcher Thermophile Join Date: May 2001 Location: UK Posts: 1,064	Blade, what sort of lacquer do you use to coat the copper there? __________________ Once upon a time, in a land far far away...

01-24-2002, 11:55 AM	#9
DigitalChaos Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waukesha, Wi Posts: 698	yea what coating do you use... ive been lookin around for stuff... i guess ill post a thread for that... but anyone look into the DangerDen Geforce Video block? i just orderd one and it looks pretty low profile... cant wait to get it

01-24-2002, 12:14 PM	#11
BladeRunner Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chesterfield Uk Posts: 459	DigitalChaos The trouble with that new DD GPU block, (other than the fact it looks Pig Ugly to me), Is that it sucks up two PCI slots apparently. Also some were having trouble with the retainers not fitting on some GF3 cards due to a capacitor in the way. Butcher I use cellulose clear lacquer (aerosol can), and my method is explained fully in all the block builds on my site, (sig link). Seems to work fine but it will scratch off if you are not careful. __________________ Zero Fan Zone

01-24-2002, 12:37 PM	#12
DigitalChaos Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waukesha, Wi Posts: 698	hmmm... if it takes up an extra slot that would kinda suck... but the capacitor is poor design on the card mfg end... but a little rubber washer would fix that.. or a nylon washer with a small piece cut out of it

01-24-2002, 12:48 PM	#13
BladeRunner Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chesterfield Uk Posts: 459	Yeah well I'm not 100% sure on this as I don't have one but from what I've heard it takes two PCI. It sure looks like it will because mine only just gets away with one and it definately looks taller. The card design layout is for the default cooling retention, so it's not really fair to lay blame at their door. Again from what I've read it's more than one card and although it can be solved, should have been taken into account with the block retainer design by DD imo. __________________ Zero Fan Zone

01-24-2002, 02:49 PM	#14
Brad Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nuu Zeeelin Posts: 3,175	what blade has done is about the only way to get a watercooled gpu and watercooled ram. Even if you do lose a pci slot, how many of you out there use that top pci slot?

01-24-2002, 04:00 PM	#15
mrcandy224 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Solana Beach, CA, USA Posts: 50	I'm glad BladeRunner reads my threads yeah the GPU block from DD has mounting problems.. sigh they haven't emailed me back about all the MFGs I found that have the problem (literally all of them..), anyhoo.. BladeRunner! Would you like to make me a Ram waterblock? I don't have the tools to do it myself or I would have a long time ago.. how much can I pay you? __________________ EpoX 8k7a is the BEST. 512 MB DDR VisionTek GeForce3 1.33 @ 1.56 Ghz

01-24-2002, 04:47 PM	#16
grep Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 37	Well the problem is I don't actually have a GF3 in hand and I doubt if I will, I am waiting for the new GF4 before I get one. But I must say that of all the waterblocks I have seen pictures of BladeRunner sure makes the prettiest I may be all wrong from an engineering/design point of view, but I can't help the feeling that someone who cares how it looks, somehow is a better engineer. DETAILS COUNT!. My design idea was an effort to allow the designer to route the inlet and outlets in more non traditional ways and even improve flow while doing it. Unfortunatly I am old and no longer have access to machine tools or a machine shop so practical machining is just a lost dream. One question remains. Where does blade runner hide the teflon tape? Grep __________________ every thing is optional

01-24-2002, 05:53 PM	#17
Pinkster Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: adelaide, australia Posts: 61	i still dont get it... most motherboards cant use their pci slot one neway... so theres no loss in using it!.. this is because normally the agp slot uses the same irq as pci slot 1!@ __________________ whats a sig?

01-24-2002, 07:37 PM	#18
BladeRunner Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chesterfield Uk Posts: 459	I guess I just love the way copper looks when shiny, especially offset with the shiny brass colour Unless you really require all the PCI slots I agree leave it empty, but If you are using a true PCI card (that follows the laid down PCI specs) and using a NT kernal OS then in theory Slot sharing / IRQ sharing issues should not exist. mrcandy224 Sorry I just don't have the equipment or time to make the blocks for others ATM, but I will be looking into it. Unless I could make them with my home built look & quality, I wouldn't bother though. grep I don't use PTFE tape if that's what you mean all barbs are either soldered in or screwed in tight with Araldite Epoxy resin on the threads, This of course makes them pretty permanent but is also 99.9% leak proof __________________ Zero Fan Zone Last edited by BladeRunner; 01-24-2002 at 08:04 PM.

01-24-2002, 08:19 PM	#19
Brad Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nuu Zeeelin Posts: 3,175	yeah, I've never used the top pci slot, also I have never seen dell, compaq or any other oem use the top pci slots unless all of them are in use

01-24-2002, 09:28 PM	#21
Butcher Thermophile Join Date: May 2001 Location: UK Posts: 1,064	hmm time to go find some cellulose lacquer Also I'd just like to say soldered or epoxied barbs are GREAT. In particular soldered, you won't see a leak on them __________________ Once upon a time, in a land far far away...

01-26-2002, 03:56 PM	#22
p_D_c Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lagoa, Portugal Posts: 7	my cooler uses 10mm tubing, i checked now, and if i had used 3mm,5mm,3mm e would not block any PCI... would be though to drill the holes in... they are 10mm

01-26-2002, 05:14 PM	#24
Butcher Thermophile Join Date: May 2001 Location: UK Posts: 1,064	Well blades work inspired me to get the lapping paper out and a can of lacquer and have a go at making my maze look nice, and I'm quite pleased with the result: __________________ Once upon a time, in a land far far away...

01-26-2002, 05:44 PM	#25
BladeRunner Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chesterfield Uk Posts: 459	That looks nice, Butcher, and should stay that way with the lacquering. __________________ Zero Fan Zone

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