Performance for the Maze3

DigitalChaos · 04-21-2002, 01:59 AM

Everyone post the performance you are getting with your maze3 here.
Make sure to include the components of you cooling system AND the ambient temp (high and idle temps show nothing for performance if we dont know the ambient)

currently i am only a few min away from finishing my Maze2 vs Maze3 comparison. It should be up in a bit!

DigitalChaos · 04-21-2002, 02:09 AM

ok here it is:
MAZE3 VS MAZE2

________
Hardware:
XP 2100+ (no OC), 1.85v
Epox 8K3A+ (133 fsb, 166 fsb DDR)
ArticSilver3

_______
Cooling:
3/8" system with 1/2" fittings on the CPU blocks and the Heatercore.
Becooling chipset block
Eheim 1250
Chevette Heatercore (shrouded with 2" thick shroud)
120mm Panoflo 103.8 CFM, pulling the air through the Core
~1/4 gallon with a 2oz:1gal mix of RedLine

Loop Config:
Rad > RESEVOIR > CPU > CHIPSET > PUMP >

both blocks were lapped to a 1500grit finish, and they used the exact same mounting hardware. and the springs were compressed untill they couldn't go any farther.

_______________
Temp monitoring:
DD5: first i calibrated the 3 probes so i could change the variance in probes when recording (only .5C difference between probes).

The CPU probe was stripped down so that it was directly touching the side of the CPU core.
The ambient probe was suspended in air, on the intake side of the heatercore.
The water probe was dipped in GOOP to waterproof it, and sitting in the Resevoir.

VCool is a CPU idling program used for the VCool temps.
IDLE was taken by simply letting the computer sit without any software cooling.
MAX was taken by running Toast.

Each Test was run for 30+ min to allow for stabilizing.

==========
**MAZE2***
==========
_______________
VCool

CPU: 25.8
AMBIENT: 22.7
WATER: 23.9
_______________
IDLE

CPU: 35.5
AMBIENT: 22.7
WATER: 24.9
_______________
MAX

CPU: 41.9
AMBIENT: 22.7
WATER: 25.6
_______________

==========
**MAZE3***
==========

_______________
VCool

CPU: 25.0
AMBIENT: 22.7
WATER: 23.5
_______________
IDLE

CPU: 33.6
AMBIENT: 22.7
WATER: 24.3
_______________
MAX

CPU: 38.8
AMBIENT: 22.7
WATER: 25.5
_______________

=======
SUMMARY
=======

Maze3 is better than the Maze2 based on CPU temps by:
VCool: 0.8
IDLE: 1.9
Max: 3.1

Brad · 04-21-2002, 03:04 AM

thats actually quite a big drop, from 19.2C to 13.3C.

great work DDen (even better with a copper top)

Kevin · 04-21-2002, 03:23 AM

It's actually not that big of an improvement, but I think we're reaching the point with waterblocks, like we have been at with heatsinks, that design can only be improved so much. So the bottom line is that they made their blocks a bit more efficient than they were before and they look cool. Definitely a worthy successor, but maybe not worthy of dumping your Maze2 for.
-Kev

schoolie · 04-21-2002, 11:45 AM

That's about an 18% improvement!

Brad · 04-21-2002, 01:57 PM

yeah, 18% is definately worth it.

I think the main limitation now is getting the heat from the cpu to the copper, not neccessarily the heat to the water from the copper

Kevin · 04-21-2002, 02:45 PM

I could be an idiot, but I don't see how you guys got 18%...
-Kev

schoolie · 04-21-2002, 02:58 PM

Well, I could be the idiot too

I was comparing the differences between core temp and water temp at load, assuming that the CPU heat produced is constant:

MAZE2 Delta 16.3C
MAZE3 Delta 13.3C

100*(16.3-13.3)/16.3 = 18.4

Did I misread something in the results?

Kevin · 04-21-2002, 03:11 PM

You didn't misread the results, but they are misinterpreted as that is not an 18% increase in performance. What you are saying is that the difference between the water and core temps are 18% different. But the real issue is that the difference in core temps is 7% better, not 18% better.

Your statistic shows that the Maze3 is 18% better at transferring heat from the copper block to the water, but as the core temps show, that translates to roughly half that percentage in actual cooling aide for the CPU.

pHaestus · 04-21-2002, 03:16 PM

3C is a much bigger drop than the spread between most blocks in Joe's first shootout. Wonder if differences in clamping pressure may play a role? What about flow rates? Have you tried measuring flow rates at all? Maze2 seems to really start to drop off in performance at around 1 GPM on my setup, and that may be a hard flow to achieve with the eheim, multiple blocks, and 3/8" tubing.

pHaestus · 04-21-2002, 03:21 PM

Kevin not sure I totally follow your logic. By that same logic if I lower the water temp on the maze2 by 5 degrees C (and keep the same delta T) then the Maze2 becomes the better block (temp would be 1.9C lower than the maze3 then)? I would think subtracting out the water temp to get a delta t would be a more logical method for comparing performance...

Kevin · 04-21-2002, 03:48 PM

pHaestus - True. However, the ambient temps are the same and their water temps are .1 degree off which could be attributed to margin of error so in general, core temps are comparable.

But the bottom line is we are alll agreeing that it is a good block, and that's that.

Stylerod · 04-21-2002, 03:55 PM

Here is mine:

Abit KR7A Raid
1800XP @1782 (155 FSB-1.85Volts)
Black Ice Extreme
Water and a bit of Wetter
Maze 3 with 6 cracks :-)

Ambient 25
Idle 38
Load 43

DigitalChaos · 04-21-2002, 06:22 PM

i made sure the pressure was the same. i fully tightened the nuts untill the springs were fully compressed.

DigitalChaos · 04-21-2002, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stylerod
Here is mine:

Abit KR7A Raid
1800XP @1782 (155 FSB-1.85Volts)
Black Ice Extreme
Water and a bit of Wetter
Maze 3 with 6 cracks :-)

Ambient 25
Idle 38
Load 43

how were these temps taken?

pHaestus · 04-21-2002, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DigitalChaos
i made sure the pressure was the same. i fully tightened the nuts untill the springs were fully compressed.

Are the blocks the same thickness though? And are the springs the same in both cases? Just thinking out loud...

DigitalChaos · 04-21-2002, 07:19 PM

thickness of the block would not matter... i went till the springs were completely compressed, not till they were at a certain distance down the nylon bolt

the exact same mount (springs and all) were used.

Stylerod · 04-21-2002, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DigitalChaos

how were these temps taken?

From the motherboard. It's all I've got.

ECUPirate · 04-22-2002, 01:46 AM

Ok... I added an 80mm panaflo L1A as an intake at the rear of my case. That gives me a grand total of ONE intake fans in my case. EXHAUST: the psu exhaust, and the 172mm comair fan pulling air out the rad.
Adding this one 80mm fan lowered my idle CPU temps from 34C to 32C. (that is, with all fans running at max speed. the 172mm running at 12v, rated at 24v, so half speed, but max for my power supply).

I intend to put a 120mm intake over the vid card, and I may switch the 172mm to 2 120mms. The comair still makes more noise than I'd like running at about 9v. I suspect the addition of the 120 intake will lower my temps dramatically.

DigitalChaos · 04-22-2002, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stylerod

From the motherboard. It's all I've got.

hey its all good

was just wondering

jtroutma · 04-22-2002, 05:53 PM

DigitalChaos:

Well, how would you measure ambient Temp?

Just curious myself and would like to see how my setup ranks up to the competition

Right now using only my Temp Probe behind the CPU and my system temp Probe, my difference between the two is 6-7C. As in when my system temp will say 31C and my CPU probe will say 38C. My whole rig is enclosed in the case with only my 120mm fan sucking air from between my HDDs and blowing out the case over the rad.

DigitalChaos · 04-22-2002, 09:39 PM

well i just stuck a probe from my Digital Doc on the intake side of my rad....

you could just keep put any type of thermometer infront of the intake (in air.. not touching the rad)... then convert the temp from F to C (check google if ya need a converter "farenheit to celcius")

and that will get you an ambient.

Pinkster · 04-22-2002, 11:35 PM

heh well the maze 3 got 3 degrees better then maze two in this comparo with a 1250... the gemini got 4 degrees better than the maze 2 in hoots shootout with a 1048

. Now b4 you start flaming me and saying the results arent comparable blah blah all im saying is that it looks as if the maze 3 and gemini are both quite a bit better than the maze 2. probably other blocks ie fixits spiral tc4 maybe will also outperform the maze 2 by a fair way although as far as i know they havent been compared... so looks like we could get some close results when they are all compared...

Brad · 04-23-2002, 02:16 AM

yeah, the maze2 is an older gen block, the spir@l, maze3 etc are of a newer generation that have dropped temps

Jim · 04-23-2002, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brad
thats actually quite a big drop, from 19.2C to 13.3C.

great work DDen (even better with a copper top)

Huh?
3.1 C gain Max is what I read. :shrug:
Did I miss somthin'?
Jim

04-21-2002, 01:59 AM	#1
DigitalChaos Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waukesha, Wi Posts: 698	Performance for the Maze3 Everyone post the performance you are getting with your maze3 here. Make sure to include the components of you cooling system AND the ambient temp (high and idle temps show nothing for performance if we dont know the ambient) currently i am only a few min away from finishing my Maze2 vs Maze3 comparison. It should be up in a bit!

04-21-2002, 02:09 AM	#2
DigitalChaos Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waukesha, Wi Posts: 698	ok here it is: MAZE3 VS MAZE2 ________ Hardware: XP 2100+ (no OC), 1.85v Epox 8K3A+ (133 fsb, 166 fsb DDR) ArticSilver3 _______ Cooling: 3/8" system with 1/2" fittings on the CPU blocks and the Heatercore. Becooling chipset block Eheim 1250 Chevette Heatercore (shrouded with 2" thick shroud) 120mm Panoflo 103.8 CFM, pulling the air through the Core ~1/4 gallon with a 2oz:1gal mix of RedLine Loop Config: Rad > RESEVOIR > CPU > CHIPSET > PUMP > both blocks were lapped to a 1500grit finish, and they used the exact same mounting hardware. and the springs were compressed untill they couldn't go any farther. _______________ Temp monitoring: DD5: first i calibrated the 3 probes so i could change the variance in probes when recording (only .5C difference between probes). The CPU probe was stripped down so that it was directly touching the side of the CPU core. The ambient probe was suspended in air, on the intake side of the heatercore. The water probe was dipped in GOOP to waterproof it, and sitting in the Resevoir. VCool is a CPU idling program used for the VCool temps. IDLE was taken by simply letting the computer sit without any software cooling. MAX was taken by running Toast. Each Test was run for 30+ min to allow for stabilizing. ========== MAZE2* ========== _______________ VCool CPU: 25.8 AMBIENT: 22.7 WATER: 23.9 _______________ IDLE CPU: 35.5 AMBIENT: 22.7 WATER: 24.9 _______________ MAX CPU: 41.9 AMBIENT: 22.7 WATER: 25.6 _______________ ========== MAZE3* ========== _______________ VCool CPU: 25.0 AMBIENT: 22.7 WATER: 23.5 _______________ IDLE CPU: 33.6 AMBIENT: 22.7 WATER: 24.3 _______________ MAX CPU: 38.8 AMBIENT: 22.7 WATER: 25.5 _______________ ======= SUMMARY ======= Maze3 is better than the Maze2 based on CPU temps by: VCool: 0.8 IDLE: 1.9 Max: 3.1 Last edited by DigitalChaos; 04-21-2002 at 07:56 PM.

04-21-2002, 03:04 AM	#3
Brad Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nuu Zeeelin Posts: 3,175	thats actually quite a big drop, from 19.2C to 13.3C. great work DDen (even better with a copper top) __________________ 2x P3 1100's at 1400, Abit VP6, 2x Corsair 256mb PC150 sticks, 20gb 'cuda ATA-III, 2x 40gb 'cuda ATA-IV in raid 0. 20" Trinitron. No fans 2x 2400+ at 2288mhz (16.0 x 143), Iwill MPX2, 2x Kingmax PC-3200 256mb sticks, 4x 20gb 60gxp in Raid 5 on a Promise SX6000. Asus Ti4200 320/630. Cooled by Water

04-21-2002, 03:23 AM	#4
Kevin Slacking more than your weird uncle Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: San Diego, CA (UCSD) / Los Angeles, CA (home) Posts: 1,605	It's actually not that big of an improvement, but I think we're reaching the point with waterblocks, like we have been at with heatsinks, that design can only be improved so much. So the bottom line is that they made their blocks a bit more efficient than they were before and they look cool. Definitely a worthy successor, but maybe not worthy of dumping your Maze2 for. -Kev __________________ I used to throw hot coffee all over the ass of the horse there, then whip him while he was kickin' at me. Those f***in things are crazy.

04-21-2002, 01:57 PM	#6
Brad Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nuu Zeeelin Posts: 3,175	yeah, 18% is definately worth it. I think the main limitation now is getting the heat from the cpu to the copper, not neccessarily the heat to the water from the copper __________________ 2x P3 1100's at 1400, Abit VP6, 2x Corsair 256mb PC150 sticks, 20gb 'cuda ATA-III, 2x 40gb 'cuda ATA-IV in raid 0. 20" Trinitron. No fans 2x 2400+ at 2288mhz (16.0 x 143), Iwill MPX2, 2x Kingmax PC-3200 256mb sticks, 4x 20gb 60gxp in Raid 5 on a Promise SX6000. Asus Ti4200 320/630. Cooled by Water

04-21-2002, 11:45 AM	#5
schoolie Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 120	That's about an 18% improvement!

04-21-2002, 02:45 PM	#7
Kevin Slacking more than your weird uncle Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: San Diego, CA (UCSD) / Los Angeles, CA (home) Posts: 1,605	I could be an idiot, but I don't see how you guys got 18%... -Kev __________________ I used to throw hot coffee all over the ass of the horse there, then whip him while he was kickin' at me. Those f***in things are crazy.

04-21-2002, 02:58 PM	#8
schoolie Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 120	Well, I could be the idiot too I was comparing the differences between core temp and water temp at load, assuming that the CPU heat produced is constant: MAZE2 Delta 16.3C MAZE3 Delta 13.3C 100*(16.3-13.3)/16.3 = 18.4 Did I misread something in the results?

04-21-2002, 03:11 PM	#9
Kevin Slacking more than your weird uncle Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: San Diego, CA (UCSD) / Los Angeles, CA (home) Posts: 1,605	You didn't misread the results, but they are misinterpreted as that is not an 18% increase in performance. What you are saying is that the difference between the water and core temps are 18% different. But the real issue is that the difference in core temps is 7% better, not 18% better. Your statistic shows that the Maze3 is 18% better at transferring heat from the copper block to the water, but as the core temps show, that translates to roughly half that percentage in actual cooling aide for the CPU. __________________ I used to throw hot coffee all over the ass of the horse there, then whip him while he was kickin' at me. Those f***in things are crazy.

04-21-2002, 03:16 PM	#10
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	3C is a much bigger drop than the spread between most blocks in Joe's first shootout. Wonder if differences in clamping pressure may play a role? What about flow rates? Have you tried measuring flow rates at all? Maze2 seems to really start to drop off in performance at around 1 GPM on my setup, and that may be a hard flow to achieve with the eheim, multiple blocks, and 3/8" tubing.

04-21-2002, 03:21 PM	#11
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	Kevin not sure I totally follow your logic. By that same logic if I lower the water temp on the maze2 by 5 degrees C (and keep the same delta T) then the Maze2 becomes the better block (temp would be 1.9C lower than the maze3 then)? I would think subtracting out the water temp to get a delta t would be a more logical method for comparing performance...

04-21-2002, 03:48 PM	#12
Kevin Slacking more than your weird uncle Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: San Diego, CA (UCSD) / Los Angeles, CA (home) Posts: 1,605	pHaestus - True. However, the ambient temps are the same and their water temps are .1 degree off which could be attributed to margin of error so in general, core temps are comparable. But the bottom line is we are alll agreeing that it is a good block, and that's that. __________________ I used to throw hot coffee all over the ass of the horse there, then whip him while he was kickin' at me. Those f***in things are crazy.

04-21-2002, 03:55 PM	#13
Stylerod Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 8	Here is mine: Abit KR7A Raid 1800XP @1782 (155 FSB-1.85Volts) Black Ice Extreme Water and a bit of Wetter Maze 3 with 6 cracks :-) Ambient 25 Idle 38 Load 43

04-21-2002, 06:22 PM	#14
DigitalChaos Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waukesha, Wi Posts: 698	i made sure the pressure was the same. i fully tightened the nuts untill the springs were fully compressed.

04-21-2002, 07:19 PM	#17
DigitalChaos Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waukesha, Wi Posts: 698	thickness of the block would not matter... i went till the springs were completely compressed, not till they were at a certain distance down the nylon bolt the exact same mount (springs and all) were used.

04-22-2002, 01:46 AM	#19
ECUPirate Hottest Stank of them All Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Washington, DC area Posts: 533	Ok... I added an 80mm panaflo L1A as an intake at the rear of my case. That gives me a grand total of ONE intake fans in my case. EXHAUST: the psu exhaust, and the 172mm comair fan pulling air out the rad. Adding this one 80mm fan lowered my idle CPU temps from 34C to 32C. (that is, with all fans running at max speed. the 172mm running at 12v, rated at 24v, so half speed, but max for my power supply). I intend to put a 120mm intake over the vid card, and I may switch the 172mm to 2 120mms. The comair still makes more noise than I'd like running at about 9v. I suspect the addition of the 120 intake will lower my temps dramatically. __________________ Does a radioactive cat have 18 half lifes? --Kenny my pimpin' rig: ...previously poorly cooled... 486DX-2 66mhz @ 75mhz, 4Mb ram, shared, 256Mb hard drive Onboard VGA, watercooled, of course 16-color monitor, labtec speakers, 28kbs USRobotics modem Windows XP (think about it) Maze 3, DDen GF3 block, Eheim 1250, econoline van HC, 1/2" hose w/ 5/8" fittings Comair 172mm fan

04-22-2002, 05:53 PM	#21
jtroutma Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: SLO, CA Posts: 837	DigitalChaos: Well, how would you measure ambient Temp? Just curious myself and would like to see how my setup ranks up to the competition Right now using only my Temp Probe behind the CPU and my system temp Probe, my difference between the two is 6-7C. As in when my system temp will say 31C and my CPU probe will say 38C. My whole rig is enclosed in the case with only my 120mm fan sucking air from between my HDDs and blowing out the case over the rad. __________________ Athlon64 X2 4200+ @ 2.5Ghz (250FSB x 10) OCZ VX 1GB 4000 @ 250FSB (6-2-2-2 timmings) DFI LANParty nForce4 Ultra-D SCSI Raid 5 x (3) Cheetah 15K HDDs LSI Express 500 (128MB cache) OCZ PowerStream 520W PSU ATI X850XT PE (Stock) DTEK WhiteWater + DTEK Custom Radiator Eheim 1250

04-22-2002, 09:39 PM	#22
DigitalChaos Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waukesha, Wi Posts: 698	well i just stuck a probe from my Digital Doc on the intake side of my rad.... you could just keep put any type of thermometer infront of the intake (in air.. not touching the rad)... then convert the temp from F to C (check google if ya need a converter "farenheit to celcius") and that will get you an ambient.

04-22-2002, 11:35 PM	#23
Pinkster Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: adelaide, australia Posts: 61	heh well the maze 3 got 3 degrees better then maze two in this comparo with a 1250... the gemini got 4 degrees better than the maze 2 in hoots shootout with a 1048 . Now b4 you start flaming me and saying the results arent comparable blah blah all im saying is that it looks as if the maze 3 and gemini are both quite a bit better than the maze 2. probably other blocks ie fixits spiral tc4 maybe will also outperform the maze 2 by a fair way although as far as i know they havent been compared... so looks like we could get some close results when they are all compared... __________________ whats a sig?

04-23-2002, 02:16 AM	#24
Brad Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nuu Zeeelin Posts: 3,175	yeah, the maze2 is an older gen block, the spir@l, maze3 etc are of a newer generation that have dropped temps __________________ 2x P3 1100's at 1400, Abit VP6, 2x Corsair 256mb PC150 sticks, 20gb 'cuda ATA-III, 2x 40gb 'cuda ATA-IV in raid 0. 20" Trinitron. No fans 2x 2400+ at 2288mhz (16.0 x 143), Iwill MPX2, 2x Kingmax PC-3200 256mb sticks, 4x 20gb 60gxp in Raid 5 on a Promise SX6000. Asus Ti4200 320/630. Cooled by Water

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