Bleeding closed loop circuit??

XiveX · 05-19-2002, 08:09 PM

OK guys, I have read several articles and listened to people's advice on bleeding an inline system for a few weeks now. Just last night was cutting my case up and installing my first H20 setup (Maze 3, Eheim 1250, 1/2" Tygon R-3603 Tubing, Black Ice Extreme rev.2 coolmetal blue, and two Panaflo 120mm High output fans in push/pull config on rad). I put the block and pump in a bucket full of 2 gallons of distilled H20 and proper amounts of water wetter. After priming the pump, I began (while holding the open tubes underwater the ENTIRE time) to fill the system. I did this for about 20 minutes alternating pump off/pump on, and shaking radiator, pump, and block while thumping the tubing very frequently. It had no bubbles in it. I sealed it while under the water and removed it from the bucket and placed it on my table.

The pump was still on...still no bubbles at all..perfect. Now I turn the pump off, dry everything off gently by dabbing it with a towel, and turn pump back on. As SOON AS I TURN THE PUMP BACK ON, bam mad bubbles everywhere. Gurgly noise and tons of streaming bubbles all thru the tubes.

I have done this 3x now and get the same result EVERYTIME. The system is perfect until I stop the pump and restart it after I've removed it from the water (I did seal it underwater before removing it.). What does this mean? Should I ignore it? Is it not bled properly? Will all those bubbles eventually gather in my "T-Line" and go away? Is there something I'm not doing right? Please help!! I'd really like to put it all together tonight or tomorrow....

Thanks,

XiveX

kibbler · 05-19-2002, 08:20 PM

Uh, I think I know your problem. You should refill liquid from the fill tube, turn the pump on and off, get the bubbles out, and refill more liquid if necessary. I think you just don't have enough liquid in your system, I doubt you have a serious leak or anything.

You know what I do, I actual fill the entire thing with a funnel from the fill tube. DOESN't actually take that long, and isnt' hard at all. I have my wye splitter between the WB and the pump, which makes this a whole hell of a lot easier. The pump needs to be unattached for now, tho. Dump water w/ additives in until the liquid comes up to the top of the fill tube. Flick the tubes a little and you'll get mad bubbles from the liquid filling the inside of the pump. Once the liquid falls lower than the wye, repeat the process. Now, for the bubbles in the rest of the system, flip the pump upside down so liquid runs out of the pump, and the pump fills with air. "Guide" the air bubbles out the pump intake, and up to the wye splitter. Refill the fill tube to the back to the top every now and then. Once you've removed all the bubbles you can remove at the moment (the ones you can't get at are in the WB and the radiator), fire up the pump for just a sec. You'll get mad bubble movement immediately, but the trick is to gather the bubbles in the tube just before and just after the pump. That way, you can "guide" the bubbles out like before by moving and turning the pump around. Sounds like a hassle, but I assure you, its a lot neater than using a whole bucket.

I'll have new pictures of my revised MARK II later tonite, hopefully, and then hopefully what I said will make more sense.

kibbler · 05-19-2002, 08:21 PM

Sorry, I mean, you're probably seeing the air from the WB and the radiator that you couldn't remove before.

XiveX · 05-19-2002, 09:23 PM

OK, well I really don't see how filling it from the "T-Line" is going to be any different. The thing is, there are NO bubbles when I start/stop pump underwater. The bubbles only appear after I've sealed/removed it from water and then STOP and RESTART the pump. This is what makes no sense to me....I can stop/start pump a billion times underwater and it doesn't bubble. However as soon as I close the loop and remove it from the water and stop/start the pump, it goes all kinds of bubbly.

BTW--I have the water in my "T-Line" half way full...its the highest point of water in the system.

Could the pump be sucking in air? I have a 90 degree elbow on the suction side of the Eheim 1250 so I can run the cpu exit tube directly onto the top of the suction plug, and not have to bend it. Could it be sucking in air from there? It has a rubber O-ring seal and isn't leaking so I am doubtful, but the first time I filled it, I let it run ALL NIGHT and when I woke up it was perfect. Then I stopped/started pump and mad bubbles came up again. WHERE ARE THEY COMING FROM?? ARGHHH!!

Please help if you have ANY ideas or comments....

Thanks,

XiveX

kibbler · 05-19-2002, 09:47 PM

Unfortunately, its starting to sound like a leak at the pump intake, very possible because you don't get bubbles with the pump submerged. If possible, swap out your elbow (which, coincidentally, is what I'm using as well), and replace it with the original 1/2 fitting (if you're running 3/8, then thats not gonna happen), and whatever happens, you'll know if the intake is really the problem. If its something else, at least you've narrowed down the possibilities. With my elbow, I'm using a bit of teflon tape, as well as a large screw-type hose clamp on the pump intake itself, just so I don't crack the intake like I did with my danner. Dunno if the clamp helps the seal, but its certainly comforting Teflon tape really helped seal my pump outlet with another elbow.

Sorry if this doesn't help

XiveX · 05-19-2002, 10:04 PM

Well the thing is, if it was an air leak at the suction end of the Eheim 1250 pump, it is NOT coming from the elbow. Its coming from where the elbow connects to the pump housing at. I know this because I can NOT get the Tygon (1/2" ID Thickwall) off the elbow for the life of me. I mean I'm scared of breaking or damaging the pump I've pulled so hard on it. I'll probably have to cut it off if I try that. BTW--That is the only thing that does NOT have a clamp (screw-type) on it...LOL! Only because its so tight naturally....no need for one.. I can't even pull the damn thing off.

I'll try the other one tomorrow probably. Any other ideas guys??

Thanks,

XiveX

bigben2k · 05-19-2002, 10:21 PM

You said it yourself Xivex, you don't have a clamp at the pump intake. Your hose might be on tight, but it doesn't mean that it won't allow air to be sucked in.

The pump may not leak while you're using the bucket simply because there is very little flow resistance (i.e. the water is free to flow in and out). Once you close the system, the pump is then subjected to the full resistance of flow, hence your leak. Honestly, I'm surprised that you didn't spring a water leak, but hey, it's still early...

I'd try a hose clamp if I were you. You'll probably be surprised. Also, if you are closing your fill tube, try leaving it open.

If that doesn't work, then look at the pump (yes, I know its an Eheim 1250) but take a very close look for leaks at that fitting (which is removable btw). Use teflon if you haven't already.

XiveX · 05-19-2002, 10:57 PM

Stupid POS Home Depot. I put the original pump adapter back on after taking the 90 degree elbow adapter off, and it works perfect now.

Now I have to cut a bigger piece of tube for that spot since I don't have the right angle and then re-fill it all tomorrow...grrr this stuff is a PITA to setup...LOL!

XiveX

Here's a pic BTW --

Note -- the 90 degree elbow adapter has been removed and the front is now on the pump..hehehe..

Cyco-Dude · 05-20-2002, 12:02 AM

nice looking tubing....gotta get me some

05-19-2002, 08:09 PM	#1
XiveX Cooling Neophyte Join Date: May 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH Posts: 15	Bleeding closed loop circuit?? OK guys, I have read several articles and listened to people's advice on bleeding an inline system for a few weeks now. Just last night was cutting my case up and installing my first H20 setup (Maze 3, Eheim 1250, 1/2" Tygon R-3603 Tubing, Black Ice Extreme rev.2 coolmetal blue, and two Panaflo 120mm High output fans in push/pull config on rad). I put the block and pump in a bucket full of 2 gallons of distilled H20 and proper amounts of water wetter. After priming the pump, I began (while holding the open tubes underwater the ENTIRE time) to fill the system. I did this for about 20 minutes alternating pump off/pump on, and shaking radiator, pump, and block while thumping the tubing very frequently. It had no bubbles in it. I sealed it while under the water and removed it from the bucket and placed it on my table. The pump was still on...still no bubbles at all..perfect. Now I turn the pump off, dry everything off gently by dabbing it with a towel, and turn pump back on. As SOON AS I TURN THE PUMP BACK ON, bam mad bubbles everywhere. Gurgly noise and tons of streaming bubbles all thru the tubes. I have done this 3x now and get the same result EVERYTIME. The system is perfect until I stop the pump and restart it after I've removed it from the water (I did seal it underwater before removing it.). What does this mean? Should I ignore it? Is it not bled properly? Will all those bubbles eventually gather in my "T-Line" and go away? Is there something I'm not doing right? Please help!! I'd really like to put it all together tonight or tomorrow.... Thanks, XiveX

05-19-2002, 10:21 PM	#7
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	You said it yourself Xivex, you don't have a clamp at the pump intake. Your hose might be on tight, but it doesn't mean that it won't allow air to be sucked in. The pump may not leak while you're using the bucket simply because there is very little flow resistance (i.e. the water is free to flow in and out). Once you close the system, the pump is then subjected to the full resistance of flow, hence your leak. Honestly, I'm surprised that you didn't spring a water leak, but hey, it's still early... I'd try a hose clamp if I were you. You'll probably be surprised. Also, if you are closing your fill tube, try leaving it open. If that doesn't work, then look at the pump (yes, I know its an Eheim 1250) but take a very close look for leaks at that fitting (which is removable btw). Use teflon if you haven't already. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

05-19-2002, 08:20 PM	#2
kibbler Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 107	Uh, I think I know your problem. You should refill liquid from the fill tube, turn the pump on and off, get the bubbles out, and refill more liquid if necessary. I think you just don't have enough liquid in your system, I doubt you have a serious leak or anything. You know what I do, I actual fill the entire thing with a funnel from the fill tube. DOESN't actually take that long, and isnt' hard at all. I have my wye splitter between the WB and the pump, which makes this a whole hell of a lot easier. The pump needs to be unattached for now, tho. Dump water w/ additives in until the liquid comes up to the top of the fill tube. Flick the tubes a little and you'll get mad bubbles from the liquid filling the inside of the pump. Once the liquid falls lower than the wye, repeat the process. Now, for the bubbles in the rest of the system, flip the pump upside down so liquid runs out of the pump, and the pump fills with air. "Guide" the air bubbles out the pump intake, and up to the wye splitter. Refill the fill tube to the back to the top every now and then. Once you've removed all the bubbles you can remove at the moment (the ones you can't get at are in the WB and the radiator), fire up the pump for just a sec. You'll get mad bubble movement immediately, but the trick is to gather the bubbles in the tube just before and just after the pump. That way, you can "guide" the bubbles out like before by moving and turning the pump around. Sounds like a hassle, but I assure you, its a lot neater than using a whole bucket. I'll have new pictures of my revised MARK II later tonite, hopefully, and then hopefully what I said will make more sense.

05-19-2002, 08:21 PM	#3
kibbler Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 107	Sorry, I mean, you're probably seeing the air from the WB and the radiator that you couldn't remove before.

05-19-2002, 09:23 PM	#4
XiveX Cooling Neophyte Join Date: May 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH Posts: 15	OK, well I really don't see how filling it from the "T-Line" is going to be any different. The thing is, there are NO bubbles when I start/stop pump underwater. The bubbles only appear after I've sealed/removed it from water and then STOP and RESTART the pump. This is what makes no sense to me....I can stop/start pump a billion times underwater and it doesn't bubble. However as soon as I close the loop and remove it from the water and stop/start the pump, it goes all kinds of bubbly. BTW--I have the water in my "T-Line" half way full...its the highest point of water in the system. Could the pump be sucking in air? I have a 90 degree elbow on the suction side of the Eheim 1250 so I can run the cpu exit tube directly onto the top of the suction plug, and not have to bend it. Could it be sucking in air from there? It has a rubber O-ring seal and isn't leaking so I am doubtful, but the first time I filled it, I let it run ALL NIGHT and when I woke up it was perfect. Then I stopped/started pump and mad bubbles came up again. WHERE ARE THEY COMING FROM?? ARGHHH!! Please help if you have ANY ideas or comments.... Thanks, XiveX

05-19-2002, 09:47 PM	#5
kibbler Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 107	Unfortunately, its starting to sound like a leak at the pump intake, very possible because you don't get bubbles with the pump submerged. If possible, swap out your elbow (which, coincidentally, is what I'm using as well), and replace it with the original 1/2 fitting (if you're running 3/8, then thats not gonna happen), and whatever happens, you'll know if the intake is really the problem. If its something else, at least you've narrowed down the possibilities. With my elbow, I'm using a bit of teflon tape, as well as a large screw-type hose clamp on the pump intake itself, just so I don't crack the intake like I did with my danner. Dunno if the clamp helps the seal, but its certainly comforting Teflon tape really helped seal my pump outlet with another elbow. Sorry if this doesn't help

05-19-2002, 10:04 PM	#6
XiveX Cooling Neophyte Join Date: May 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH Posts: 15	Well the thing is, if it was an air leak at the suction end of the Eheim 1250 pump, it is NOT coming from the elbow. Its coming from where the elbow connects to the pump housing at. I know this because I can NOT get the Tygon (1/2" ID Thickwall) off the elbow for the life of me. I mean I'm scared of breaking or damaging the pump I've pulled so hard on it. I'll probably have to cut it off if I try that. BTW--That is the only thing that does NOT have a clamp (screw-type) on it...LOL! Only because its so tight naturally....no need for one.. I can't even pull the damn thing off. I'll try the other one tomorrow probably. Any other ideas guys?? Thanks, XiveX

05-19-2002, 10:57 PM	#8
XiveX Cooling Neophyte Join Date: May 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH Posts: 15	Stupid POS Home Depot. I put the original pump adapter back on after taking the 90 degree elbow adapter off, and it works perfect now. Now I have to cut a bigger piece of tube for that spot since I don't have the right angle and then re-fill it all tomorrow...grrr this stuff is a PITA to setup...LOL! XiveX Here's a pic BTW -- Note -- the 90 degree elbow adapter has been removed and the front is now on the pump..hehehe..

05-20-2002, 12:02 AM	#9
Cyco-Dude Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 836	nice looking tubing....gotta get me some

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