Liquid Nitrogen

[Major]

I read an article about a japanese guy who o/ced his P4 2.2Ghz to 4Ghz, using liquid nitrogen for cooling.
There was also another guy who managed 3.8 Ghz and used a styrofoam cup filled with liquid nitrogen placed on his cpu for cooling (there was frost all around the cpu on the mobo in the pic, so I'm guessing he used some sort of insulant on the motherboard to protect it from short-circuiting)
I've been really keen on using liquid nitrogen for cooling ever since. Does anyone know where to get it and which materials are resilient to it's freezing effects so that it can be contained?

[WireX]

just a few things.

1. LN2 is a very temporary cooling solution. they designed all these setups to get to the speed, run the benchmarks, then dis-assemble the system.
2. It evaporates pretty quickly, so isn't good for anything but an afternoon of high overclocks and frozen roses... cummon, you all know that everyone would stick things in it just to see how fast they would freeze :P
3. You cannot 'resist' the freezing effects, it is condensation that you must really worry about, because that is water, and water is bad when in direct contact with electricity.
4. It is very expensive.

I could go on and on about why not to do it, but you will be the one that chooses to in the end.

-WireX

[Divided]

if you want extreme performance.. phase change is where its at


however, anyone know if it is even possible to buy LN2 as a commonfolk?

[Brad]

Originally posted by WireX
1. LN2 is a very temporary cooling solution. they designed all these setups to get to the speed, run the benchmarks, then dis-assemble the system.
2. It evaporates pretty quickly, so isn't good for anything but an afternoon of high overclocks and frozen roses... cummon, you all know that everyone would stick things in it just to see how fast they would freeze :P
3. You cannot 'resist' the freezing effects, it is condensation that you must really worry about, because that is water, and water is bad when in direct contact with electricity.
4. It is very expensive.

He's right. If you want something good and permanent, go phase change

[gmat]

You can get LN2 at a specialized gas dealer. You usually find those dealers in industrial areas, and usually they accept selling to individuals.
If you come with your own bottle it's *way* cheaper, all they have to do is refill it - the bottle must be certified for LN2 though.

What they said is true, you'll prolly spend cash for an afternoon of extreme overclocking fun. Dont do it unprepared...

About insulation what's true for pelts still stands here. Now it depends if you want a total immersion (LN2 is non conductive) or just chill the core (same system as pelts). You can also chill 3M FluorInert ($1000 per liter) with a closed LN2 loop, and use total immersion in the fluorinert... Those are just examples of what has been done, use your imagination

[edit] ha if you do it dont forget the digi cam ! Share the fun with us !

[bigben2k]

Also, (just for good measure!) keep in mind that LN2 requires special handling because it is extremely dangerous.

If you think that you'll survive a drop of it spilling on your hand, well, you're partly right...

[Major]

Just for one day eh? Well I guess it's not worth it then...
Basicaly, I'm looking for a cooling solution which will by-pass the necesity for moving parts (like fans, pumps, radiators etc).

LN sounded good because it wouldn't consume too much space and would be completely self-reliant since it doesn't need a power source. What I want to do is o/c my geforce 2 to the maximum.

As for phase change, well, um...basicaly I have no idea what that is:shrug:

[Cyco-Dude]

read this

[Divided]

wait wait wait though..

in the middle of my lunch i was thinking about something.

phase change works because of the coolants properties but also because of different pressures, etc (compressor, etc)

but is LN2 only cold because its expanding to a gas which is an endothermic reaction -- right?

damn.. was thinking if u could create an airtight enclosure around the cpu so the LN2 couldn't escape... but i guess the heat would create pressure and eventually explode..

[Cyco-Dude]

changing states (liquid to gas) is a physical change, not a chemical change, so its not an endothermaic reation. if you just had LN2 in a sealed container, it wouldnt be cold at all id think. kinda like those electronics dusters. they have a pressurized liquid inside (its not cold), but once you let some out, its expands to a gas and the can gets cold. :shrug:
i dunno, maybe some-1 who knows what they're talking about should shed some light on this LOL!!

[bigben2k]

CD is right (again!)

LN2 is not a refrigerant, nor does it have endothermic capabilities.

I think it's best explained here:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/ac1.htm

***Scratch out ***
In short, refrigerants have this unique ability to do the opposite of what most substances do: get hot when compressed from gas to liquid.
***Scratch out ***

[Divided]

yes but those compressed air dusters (mainly um.. 1,1,1 trichloroethane i think.. something like that) do indeed get cold when you shake them..

[jtroutma]

Divided: If I understand what you are talking about correctly... (compressed air canisters?) then that is not entirely accurate.

Those canisters that you pick up at a local Computer shop or Staples are actually filled with CO2 in a liquid form. CO2 by nature wants to be a gas at say room temperature. So when you use them, you are releasing the CO2 that is a gas in the canister to the outside and "boiling" off new CO2 in the canister at the same time. Hence the reason why if you turn the canister upside-down and use it, it shoots out more of a liquid than air. CO2 will evaporate very quickly without pressure or in a warm environment (like above -60C, if I am not mistaken). When you "boil" off the CO2 it is taking the heat from the can with it; AKA the can gets very cold! Simmiar to a phase exchange system where you take a liquid and let it "boil" in a evaporator to produce the chilling effect.

There may also be some other gases or chemicals in the canister to aid in the "boiling" effect but not much, say 5% of the whole container.

Hope that helps.

[gmat]

Originally posted by bigben2k
LN2 is not a refrigerant, nor does it have endothermic capabilities.

N2 can be a refrigerant... Not quite a good one but it can be.

In short, refrigerants have this unique ability to do the opposite of what most substances do: get hot when compressed from gas to liquid.

Oopsie I hope you didnt check what you just typed.
A basic law of physics wants that *any* material takes heat when 'boiling' and gives back heat when 'solidifying'.
*any* means EVERYHTING from hydorgen to plutonium, including N2, H2O, toilet paper or spraycan paint.
"Takes heat " means the outside "gets cold"
"gives back heat" means the outside "gets hot"
The amount of heat given or taken depends on a fixed number which is specific to the material. Its called "specific heat".
The spec. heat of "common" refrigerants is just average but their main interest is a boiling point between -30°C and -5°C.

[jtroutma]

BigBen2K:

I think that LN2 COULD be used as a refigerant HOWEVER it would not be a very viable solution compaired to a standard phase exchange refrigerant.

Freon (which used to be the main source for phase exchange refrigerant) is similar to LN2 however it can be compressed easier and "boils" at a much higher temerature than LN2.

LN2 is created by either freezing nitrogen gas to (I think) -164C or compressed to more than say 2000psi (correct me if I am off on my figures) Freon condenses (AKA goes from a gas to a liquid) at say -60C or 200psi. Obviously freon is easier to work with because the requirements to get the gas back into a liquid is much less than that of LN2.

What I am trying to say is that LN2 could possibly be used as a refigerant but you would need a MASSIVE compressor to create the 2000+psi required to convert the gas back into a liquid. Just not fisable.

BTW, my father is a big Do-It-Him-Selfer and build many large phase exchange systems by himself with me being his "go-for" helper

ALSO if anyone is SERIOUSLY interested, we have some industrial Phase exchange Compressors sitting in our backyard waiting for a home from 1Ton to 10Ton compressors

[gmat]

Originally posted by jtroutma
I think that LN2 COULD be used as a refigerant HOWEVER it would not be a very viable solution compaired to a standard phase exchange refrigerant.
...
What I am trying to say is that LN2 could possibly be used as a refigerant but you would need a MASSIVE compressor to create the 2000+psi required to convert the gas back into a liquid. Just not fisable.
[/b]

Hehe check these (posted on another thread but..)
CTi Cryogenics
He compressors. Yes, Helium. Thats about -272°C or about 1 or 2K. I used those and they rock !
Also i used N2 as refrigerant for a plasma "cannon" in a *sorry, secret* machine. (not weaponry - its more related to electronics )

[bigben2k]

Originally posted by gmat

N2 can be a refrigerant... Not quite a good one but it can be.

Oopsie I hope you didnt check what you just typed.
A basic law of physics wants that *any* material takes heat when 'boiling' and gives back heat when 'solidifying'.
*any* means EVERYHTING

Well you're right, that was my boo boo. (barely made sense anyways, didn't it?)

I do know that LN2 is produced by compression (I remember that much!).

And yes, the refrigerant need to be easily compressible, so (and I'm pretty sure I'm right here) it's still a complex molecule. ANY matter would do, even water, but freon (or other similar products) is the best choice because of its operating temperature and high compressability.

[SonixOS]

2. It evaporates pretty quickly,

The proper term for that is LN2 is a gas a room temperature and pressure. Therefore it changes phase at that temperature.

How about this, wait till December 25th and get ur PC and set it up outside ur house in a pit of snow (hsf is just fine) and just use AirCooling. See how much you can overclock it. If it overclocks well, go for phase change otherwise i recommend watercooling.

If you come with your own bottle it's *way* cheaper, all they have to do is refill it - the bottle must be certified for LN2 though.

I think that container is called a dumar or something like that. Its made out of thick metal to keep the liquid inside stable.

Also, (just for good measure!) keep in mind that LN2 requires special handling because it is extremely dangerous.

If you do end up LN2 cooling, make sure you wear gloves and such cuz if you dip ur dick (maybe your finger would be more likely) in it you lose it. Also, LN2 will evaporate rapidly and cause dissociation of O2 where the room you are in will lack O2 particles and be replaced with LN2. Therefore it is CRUCIAL that you have adiquate breeze going through the room you are in.

Look into using mineral oil submersion. It makes ur mobo kinda sticky icky tho.


In conclusion, dont LN2 cool.


www.octools.com check out the supercooling section.




-sonix-

[gmat]

Originally posted by SonixOS

In conclusion, dont LN2 cool.

Hey ! Hey ! Dragsters are *not* meant to be driven on the road (heck they cannot steer and the fuel capacity is about 400m), but many ppl build em... Why ? Because of the fun !
Japanese & New-Zealanders have gone great lengths setting up LN2 rigs and pulling extreme overclockings.. They all knew it would last half a day but they did it.
I'd say it's the WTG for hardcore / extreme overclockers.

[SonixOS]

yeah it might be a cool experience that you might never forget(dipping dicks). Plus its something that you would do for say 30 - 60 mins and then all the LN2 would be gone. I would not recommend trying to make an insulated case because you will NEVER be able to 100% seal it so you will end up RIP. So if you really want to super cool and dont mind losing your motherboard and processor to condensation go for phase change. else watercool.


-sonix-

[Brad]

only one NZ'er has done LN2, and thats Ramil at octools. Don't put us all in the same bucket as that westie (Ramil if you're reading this, come into Bill Leckie's one day)

[gmat]

Is that him who tried the Fluorinert loop chilled in a LN2 tank ? I just remember this experiment was made in NZ.

[bigben2k]

Originally posted by gmat
Is that him who tried the Fluorinert loop chilled in a LN2 tank ? I just remember this experiment was made in NZ.

Yep, that's the one...
http://www.octools.com/index.cgi?cal...bmersion2.html

[prb123]

The containers used have double walls with a vacuum between them.

[SonixOS]

now i remember its called a dewar. it keeps liquified gases.