Need quick help, water rig underperforming

Camelot One · 10-09-2002, 05:06 PM

First off, I am new to water cooling. I've been playing around with it for a couple weeks. I started out with:
Rio 180 (120gph@1ft.) 3/8" OD barbs
HWBlaze CPU block w/ 1/2" OD barbs from BeCooling
Generic 120mm radiator with 3/8" OD barbs from BeCooling
Mechatronics 120mm 153cfm
Folgers coffee can reservoir
3/8" ID tubing

I was getting pretty poor results. My AMD 2100+ running at stock speed was at 45C under load, System temp of 29C, water in the can at 29C, room temp at 28C. The water output going back to the can was VERY low. So I figured the problem was a combination of the block being rather cheap, and the pump was too weak. Also, the HWBlaze clip was only tall enough to put the block on the CPU, and I wanted the option to run a peltier. So I did some replacing, and ended up with this:

VIA Aqua 306 (526gph@1ft) 5/8 OD outlet, with 1/2" OD adapter
Maze 2 with 1/2" OD barbs
same 152cfm fan
87 Chevette heater core 3/4" inlet, 5/8 outlet
same reservoir
same tubing (3/8")

My temps are better, droped CPU to about 41C under load. But, I think the improvement is all the block, because the flow return to the reservoir is no higher than it was with the Rio 180. It could be the pump is to blame, its an adjustable flow model. (didn't realize that when I bought it) The system is also still running on 3/8" ID tubing, which I THINK I will replace. The pump sits outside the PC, right now the tubes are just running out an open PCI slot. But the 1/2" won't go through, so I am going to drill holes to put in 1/2" OD barbs. My question is, since the 1/2" barbs going in and out of the system, and the barbs on the block are really 3/8" inner diameter, will I see any improvement going with a larger tube?

Now on to the second part. My chipset water block, copper cold plate, and 85W peltier are due in tomorrow, but I am not sure how to run the lines. Should I go pump - NB - CPU - Radiator - Pump, or should I split the pump to each block, and combine at the radiator? Jumping from NB to CPU would be the easiest, since I already have all the hardware I need. But would their be an improvement in spliting the line? Bare in mind, I am not going for super cooling here, I just want to get the CPU a little below ambient under load. (cooler would be better, but not required)

Any thoughts or advice would be helpful. I still have a lot to learn.

#Rotor · 10-09-2002, 09:34 PM

"Generic 120mm radiator with 3/8" OD barbs from BeCooling"

so tell me, that radiator, how much more surface area does that little thingy have over say a late model high performance heatsink....

There's your Sign

the only way water-cooling can be better than heatsink-cooling, is for the radiating surface of the rig, to be significantly larger than that of these heatsinks, note I say significant..... Why, because a liquid cooling rigs has on average 3 thermal junctions more, than a heatsink rig. ( CPU>>>Block>>>Water>>>Radiator>>>Air). Junctions are bad.

if not, then the water-cooling will have such a hard time being efficient though all these junctions, that it won't have time to do pretty much anything else... hens the crappy results...

g.l.amour · 10-10-2002, 02:33 AM

thats why i absolutely don't trust all the Black Ice hype. had a bud with a black ice prime getting 65°C load temps with a 2100+ equivalent (2.1V) XP. pump was eheim 1048, tubing 3/8, block maze3 (cpu, vga).

he's getting 20°C lower temps now with a bigmomma equivalent rad.

Camelot One · 10-10-2002, 03:14 AM

I agree, I only bought the radiator because I was too lazy to browse through the napa catalogue to find the right size heater core for my case. But its been replaced in the new setup by the Chevette heater core, and temps in the reservoir are fine, so I think its doing its job. I read through several of the older posts, the first 2 pages that came up wen I searched for "MAZE" Wouldn't let me search for Maze 2. Anyway, one of the tips jumped out, touch the cpu block and see if its warm. Well, its not warm, but it is warmer than it is when the system is off. I can feel a difference in temp on the inlet (cold) and outlet barbs (warm), but the rest of the block feels ok.

The pelt and NB block will be here tomorrow. I am definitely going to replace all of the lines in the system with 1/2" ID tubing, but I'm still not sure how much its going to help, since both blocks have 1/2" OD barbs. I GUESS the resistance caused by 4 3/8" ID barbs would be less than the several feet of 3/8" tubing, right? So I should see something of an increase in flow, even if its not much.

The only other thing I can think of is just to split the lines coming out of the pump, bring a 1/2""ID out of it to a 1/2" ID Y, then run a line to each block, and combine with a 1/2" ID just before the radiator, with a 1/2" ID return line to the radiator. That should keep everything over spec right? Or atleast minimize the resistance effect of the barbs. Does my logic work? Will it be worth the hassle, or should I just run pump-NB-CPU-Hcore-pump?

MadDogMe · 10-10-2002, 04:17 AM

I got confused when I measured my 1/2inch barbs, I thought they were 3/8 cause that was the inner diametre, but 1/2inch barbs have a 3/8 inner. stupid IMO , I'd rather have 5/8barbs with 12mm/1/2inch inner to match the 12mminner 1/2 inch tubing

... you can get 1/2inch barbs with a better inner diametre(11mm+ as opposed to '10mm~3/8') I don't know were to get them though

, but they do exist.

Get some 1/2 tube definately, I'd put an 'equal Y' (5/8inch has 11.5mm inner,1/2tube will fit with a push) in after the CPU (so the CPU don't get its heat)and have it rejoin with another Y before the rad, so it does'nt restrict the flow through the system, it (NBridge)won't get as much flow as it would without the Y, but should cool it well enough. maintaining flow to the CPU is more important IMO.

I'd sort out your temp/flow concerns before you fit the pelt. be happy in your mind that it's running OK.

wymjym · 10-10-2002, 06:51 AM

From my experiance the mazell can be improved upon. I have one with 1/2 dittings and it has quite a bit of restriction. I swapped out a mazell for a gemini hi volume (3/8 fittings) and dropped temps 2 degrees(c) and greatly increased total flow.
Your heat exchanger is also a possible issue. But.....as you indicatd the flow is restricted, I would upgrade the waterblock first and see what that gets you. Then the heat exchanger if necessary (probably because of your pelt desire)
wj

Camelot One · 10-11-2002, 11:51 AM

Well, results aren't too good here. With the 85W Peltier, and everything at stock speeds, the CPU stays at 33C under full load. But, the water temp going to the reservoir is a nice warm 37C. I guess my heater core isn't as good as I thought it would be. I would go to a water tower, but my flow is pretty low, so I'm not sure how much good it will do.

Guess I'll just have to try a few things.

10-09-2002, 05:06 PM	#1
Camelot One Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 6	Need quick help, water rig underperforming First off, I am new to water cooling. I've been playing around with it for a couple weeks. I started out with: Rio 180 (120gph@1ft.) 3/8" OD barbs HWBlaze CPU block w/ 1/2" OD barbs from BeCooling Generic 120mm radiator with 3/8" OD barbs from BeCooling Mechatronics 120mm 153cfm Folgers coffee can reservoir 3/8" ID tubing I was getting pretty poor results. My AMD 2100+ running at stock speed was at 45C under load, System temp of 29C, water in the can at 29C, room temp at 28C. The water output going back to the can was VERY low. So I figured the problem was a combination of the block being rather cheap, and the pump was too weak. Also, the HWBlaze clip was only tall enough to put the block on the CPU, and I wanted the option to run a peltier. So I did some replacing, and ended up with this: VIA Aqua 306 (526gph@1ft) 5/8 OD outlet, with 1/2" OD adapter Maze 2 with 1/2" OD barbs same 152cfm fan 87 Chevette heater core 3/4" inlet, 5/8 outlet same reservoir same tubing (3/8") My temps are better, droped CPU to about 41C under load. But, I think the improvement is all the block, because the flow return to the reservoir is no higher than it was with the Rio 180. It could be the pump is to blame, its an adjustable flow model. (didn't realize that when I bought it) The system is also still running on 3/8" ID tubing, which I THINK I will replace. The pump sits outside the PC, right now the tubes are just running out an open PCI slot. But the 1/2" won't go through, so I am going to drill holes to put in 1/2" OD barbs. My question is, since the 1/2" barbs going in and out of the system, and the barbs on the block are really 3/8" inner diameter, will I see any improvement going with a larger tube? Now on to the second part. My chipset water block, copper cold plate, and 85W peltier are due in tomorrow, but I am not sure how to run the lines. Should I go pump - NB - CPU - Radiator - Pump, or should I split the pump to each block, and combine at the radiator? Jumping from NB to CPU would be the easiest, since I already have all the hardware I need. But would their be an improvement in spliting the line? Bare in mind, I am not going for super cooling here, I just want to get the CPU a little below ambient under load. (cooler would be better, but not required) Any thoughts or advice would be helpful. I still have a lot to learn.

10-09-2002, 09:34 PM	#2
#Rotor Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dione, sector 4s1256 Posts: 852	"Generic 120mm radiator with 3/8" OD barbs from BeCooling" so tell me, that radiator, how much more surface area does that little thingy have over say a late model high performance heatsink.... There's your Sign the only way water-cooling can be better than heatsink-cooling, is for the radiating surface of the rig, to be significantly larger than that of these heatsinks, note I say significant..... Why, because a liquid cooling rigs has on average 3 thermal junctions more, than a heatsink rig. ( CPU>>>Block>>>Water>>>Radiator>>>Air). Junctions are bad. if not, then the water-cooling will have such a hard time being efficient though all these junctions, that it won't have time to do pretty much anything else... hens the crappy results... __________________ There is no Spoon....

10-10-2002, 02:33 AM	#3
g.l.amour Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: on da case Posts: 933	thats why i absolutely don't trust all the Black Ice hype. had a bud with a black ice prime getting 65°C load temps with a 2100+ equivalent (2.1V) XP. pump was eheim 1048, tubing 3/8, block maze3 (cpu, vga). he's getting 20°C lower temps now with a bigmomma equivalent rad.

10-10-2002, 03:14 AM	#4
Camelot One Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 6	I agree, I only bought the radiator because I was too lazy to browse through the napa catalogue to find the right size heater core for my case. But its been replaced in the new setup by the Chevette heater core, and temps in the reservoir are fine, so I think its doing its job. I read through several of the older posts, the first 2 pages that came up wen I searched for "MAZE" Wouldn't let me search for Maze 2. Anyway, one of the tips jumped out, touch the cpu block and see if its warm. Well, its not warm, but it is warmer than it is when the system is off. I can feel a difference in temp on the inlet (cold) and outlet barbs (warm), but the rest of the block feels ok. The pelt and NB block will be here tomorrow. I am definitely going to replace all of the lines in the system with 1/2" ID tubing, but I'm still not sure how much its going to help, since both blocks have 1/2" OD barbs. I GUESS the resistance caused by 4 3/8" ID barbs would be less than the several feet of 3/8" tubing, right? So I should see something of an increase in flow, even if its not much. The only other thing I can think of is just to split the lines coming out of the pump, bring a 1/2""ID out of it to a 1/2" ID Y, then run a line to each block, and combine with a 1/2" ID just before the radiator, with a 1/2" ID return line to the radiator. That should keep everything over spec right? Or atleast minimize the resistance effect of the barbs. Does my logic work? Will it be worth the hassle, or should I just run pump-NB-CPU-Hcore-pump?

10-10-2002, 04:17 AM	#5
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	I got confused when I measured my 1/2inch barbs, I thought they were 3/8 cause that was the inner diametre, but 1/2inch barbs have a 3/8 inner. stupid IMO , I'd rather have 5/8barbs with 12mm/1/2inch inner to match the 12mminner 1/2 inch tubing ... you can get 1/2inch barbs with a better inner diametre(11mm+ as opposed to '10mm~3/8') I don't know were to get them though , but they do exist. Get some 1/2 tube definately, I'd put an 'equal Y' (5/8inch has 11.5mm inner,1/2tube will fit with a push) in after the CPU (so the CPU don't get its heat)and have it rejoin with another Y before the rad, so it does'nt restrict the flow through the system, it (NBridge)won't get as much flow as it would without the Y, but should cool it well enough. maintaining flow to the CPU is more important IMO. I'd sort out your temp/flow concerns before you fit the pelt. be happy in your mind that it's running OK.

10-10-2002, 06:51 AM	#6
wymjym Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: near Austin Posts: 96	From my experiance the mazell can be improved upon. I have one with 1/2 dittings and it has quite a bit of restriction. I swapped out a mazell for a gemini hi volume (3/8 fittings) and dropped temps 2 degrees(c) and greatly increased total flow. Your heat exchanger is also a possible issue. But.....as you indicatd the flow is restricted, I would upgrade the waterblock first and see what that gets you. Then the heat exchanger if necessary (probably because of your pelt desire) wj

10-11-2002, 11:51 AM	#7
Camelot One Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 6	Well, results aren't too good here. With the 85W Peltier, and everything at stock speeds, the CPU stays at 33C under full load. But, the water temp going to the reservoir is a nice warm 37C. I guess my heater core isn't as good as I thought it would be. I would go to a water tower, but my flow is pretty low, so I'm not sure how much good it will do. Guess I'll just have to try a few things.

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